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Post by mcirish on Jul 14, 2022 8:03:20 GMT -6
The standard response is out from the wall, but I found it is completely based on the room and the speakers being used. When I placed my speakers where the manufacturer recommended, I had a 16dB dip at 80hz. That was due to the rear porting and the reflection of half the wave meeting the face of the speaker. In my case, moving the speakers closer to the wall really helped that. I got a 9dB improvement. I think you should run some experiments and take measurements. From the dips and peaks in the low frequencies, you can tell where the problem is (distance).
On another note...
You guys are playing in a league I can't afford. Sonarworks is doing a great job in helping me to improve my mixes. I don't want to know there is something better! :-)
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 14, 2022 8:14:51 GMT -6
It shows before and after graphs, as well as the filter that's being applied for each process (amplitude, phase, impulse, group delay and more). The measurement process is fast too, which encouraged me to experiment. When I first measured I was asking it to do much more than the +-4db I am now. So it's been a great help. Lots of trial and error. Of course I could have used REW or similar. I don't have a lot of space to play with, so I'm pushed up against the front wall where small adjustments in positioning can have a pretty big impact. As well as the positioning of your desk! Been meaning to ask this - is it better to have your desk/monitors a couple feet from the wall or against the wall? I’ve heard different things. Depends on the speakers, most are designed with the thought that a any boundary that close will create an unwanted bump in the lowend, some designers use this to their advantage. Honestly in the home studio market more should probably design their speakers knowing that at best they will be used within 6in of the wall or at the least on actives put a switchable EQ for this situation, but hey why design for the real world? Some are not designed for being near a wall but just work that way, example the old cheap classic Tannoy Reveals’ the manual and Tannoy would tell you to put them about 3 ft from the wall, but everybody who did would complain that in our terrible demo room they sounded better with no more than 8 in between them Ian’s the wall go figure. They also sounded best powered by a Hafler Transnova, but the one time I tried them with the Acustar TNT that was the audiophile amp the Hafler was based on they sound like ass. |
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ericn
Temp
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Post by ericn on Jul 14, 2022 8:25:24 GMT -6
The standard response is out from the wall, but I found it is completely based on the room and the speakers being used. When I placed my speakers where the manufacturer recommended, I had a 16dB dip at 80hz. That was due to the rear porting and the reflection of half the wave meeting the face of the speaker. In my case, moving the speakers closer to the wall really helped that. I got a 9dB improvement. I think you should run some experiments and take measurements. From the dips and peaks in the low frequencies, you can tell where the problem is (distance). On another note... You guys are playing in a league I can't afford. Sonarworks is doing a great job in helping me to improve my mixes. I don't want to know there is something better! :-) Yeah the Questeds are currently a foot from the wall, totally against the rules but it is giving me a bump at 35HZ and that’s the natural-6dB point so I’m pretty flat down to 30HZ baffles are large enough that It hasn’t changed the mids. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2022 8:36:49 GMT -6
Been meaning to ask this - is it better to have your desk/monitors a couple feet from the wall or against the wall? I’ve heard different things. Really does depend on the monitors, if they don't have proper DSP boundary correction (or a design to work efficiently near walls for example KH310's) you're best off using them at least a metre away from any boundary wall... From what I've read at least.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 14, 2022 11:19:06 GMT -6
Just had Trinnov support dial in and make tweaks. Sickeningly good now.
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Post by thehightenor on Jul 14, 2022 12:36:16 GMT -6
I was thinking, does anyone know if the Trinnov actually can tell you how much processing it’s having to do? I mean that would be an amazing help in positioning your monitors and adding more room treatment. It would be fantastic to see the unit doing less as you got things in your room more right organically speaking. Position, physical acoustic treatment etc. Then the Trinnov is just polishing off any inadequacies of your room shape, treatment and monitor position and limitations of the design of your monitors - though I presume at the higher end of monitors the designer have got close to perfection. Does the Trinnov have that facility? It shows before and after graphs, as well as the filter that's being applied for each process (amplitude, phase, impulse, group delay and more). The measurement process is fast too, which encouraged me to experiment. When I first measured I was asking it to do much more than the +-4db I am now. So it's been a great help. Lots of trial and error. Of course I could have used REW or similar. I don't have a lot of space to play with, so I'm pushed up against the front wall where small adjustments in positioning can have a pretty big impact. As well as the positioning of your desk! Great - for me that makes the unit even more attractive and useful. |
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Post by thehightenor on Jul 14, 2022 12:40:30 GMT -6
Been meaning to ask this - is it better to have your desk/monitors a couple feet from the wall or against the wall? I’ve heard different things. Really does depend on the monitors, if they don't have proper DSP boundary correction (or a design to work efficiently near walls for example KH310's) you're best off using them at least a metre away from any boundary wall... From what I've read at least.
I've always read and been advised if you can't get your monitors into true free space i.e. 1 meter clear all around then it's best to have your monitors as close as possible to the wall behind them as it reduces troublesome room nodes and in my experience I find that to be completely true. I use ATC 25's so the 3dB bass loading I get isn't an issue. |
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Post by kristoferharris on Jul 14, 2022 13:18:01 GMT -6
It shows before and after graphs, as well as the filter that's being applied for each process (amplitude, phase, impulse, group delay and more). The measurement process is fast too, which encouraged me to experiment. When I first measured I was asking it to do much more than the +-4db I am now. So it's been a great help. Lots of trial and error. Of course I could have used REW or similar. I don't have a lot of space to play with, so I'm pushed up against the front wall where small adjustments in positioning can have a pretty big impact. As well as the positioning of your desk! Been meaning to ask this - is it better to have your desk/monitors a couple feet from the wall or against the wall? I’ve heard different things. In my case with the 25's, I'm as close to the wall as I can physically get them. There are a few reasons this works best for me which would probs be irrelevant to share. I have an angled desk, with a small-ish 100cmx30cm work surface. I have the desk pulled towards me, close enough that the edge of the desk is right in line with the listening position. I suppose I get a little more direct sound and a little less reflections this way. I recently cut down a giant (i think gamer) mouse mat to entirely cover the non-angled surface of my desk. Actually made a measurable difference. Anywaysssss, Trinnov pretty well fixes all this stuff! |
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Post by kristoferharris on Jul 14, 2022 13:19:38 GMT -6
Really does depend on the monitors, if they don't have proper DSP boundary correction (or a design to work efficiently near walls for example KH310's) you're best off using them at least a metre away from any boundary wall... From what I've read at least.
I've always read and been advised if you can't get your monitors into true free space i.e. 1 meter clear all around then it's best to have your monitors as close as possible to the wall behind them as it reduces troublesome room nodes and in my experience I find that to be completely true. I use ATC 25's so the 3dB bass loading I get isn't an issue. Agreed. If anything, they need it. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 14, 2022 13:30:58 GMT -6
BTW guys - I paid full price for this thing. No shilling.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jul 14, 2022 13:52:13 GMT -6
Main thing is you are happy .
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2022 13:57:48 GMT -6
Really does depend on the monitors, if they don't have proper DSP boundary correction (or a design to work efficiently near walls for example KH310's) you're best off using them at least a metre away from any boundary wall... From what I've read at least.
I've always read and been advised if you can't get your monitors into true free space i.e. 1 meter clear all around then it's best to have your monitors as close as possible to the wall behind them as it reduces troublesome room nodes and in my experience I find that to be completely true. I use ATC 25's so the 3dB bass loading I get isn't an issue. That doesn't apply to every room, monitor and situation even if I did sort of say the exact same thing. The Genelec's I tested which are sort of ported at the back towards the ceiling caused no end of issues when very close to the back wall and front ported monitors made my room a lot happier. With ATC it's a given, they don't really have much bass until you get to the upper echelon's so it's a good idea to boundary load them.
I did REW the KH310's, SCM45's, PSIA21's, LYD 48's, Core 59's and 8341's (GLM). It was quite interesting how the different designs interacted with the room..
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Post by dankin on Jul 14, 2022 20:43:50 GMT -6
Just had Trinnov support dial in and make tweaks. Sickeningly good now. This is something I've meant to do with mine. I'm really curious what they tweak. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 14, 2022 21:09:32 GMT -6
Just had Trinnov support dial in and make tweaks. Sickeningly good now. This is something I've meant to do with mine. I'm really curious what they tweak. I watched, but I’m not in front of it now. I could tell you though when I’m there Or - don’t know why this didn’t occur to me. Email support and ask them to log in to your network |
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Post by thehightenor on Jul 15, 2022 13:17:56 GMT -6
I've always read and been advised if you can't get your monitors into true free space i.e. 1 meter clear all around then it's best to have your monitors as close as possible to the wall behind them as it reduces troublesome room nodes and in my experience I find that to be completely true. I use ATC 25's so the 3dB bass loading I get isn't an issue. That doesn't apply to every room, monitor and situation even if I did sort of say the exact same thing. The Genelec's I tested which are sort of ported at the back towards the ceiling caused no end of issues when very close to the back wall and front ported monitors made my room a lot happier. With ATC it's a given, they don't really have much bass until you get to the upper echelon's so it's a good idea to boundary load them.
I did REW the KH310's, SCM45's, PSIA21's, LYD 48's, Core 59's and 8341's (GLM). It was quite interesting how the different designs interacted with the room..
Yes you’re right, rear ported speakers would be an issue. One of the many things I love about the ATC 25’s is they are the most room position forgiving monitors I be ever owned they just seem to sound great wherever you put them - though like all monitors they definitely have a sweet spot. As good as the 25’s are I’m sure the Trinnov would bring something to the party …. whether it would be 5K’s worth of improvement is questionable, especially looking at my current wish list  |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 16, 2022 0:33:47 GMT -6
So...I've been listening to more stuff the last week than I have in years. Some things I held up high on the "great sounding" chart...don't sound as great as I thought. On the other hand, some others sound fantastic. I'm finding I love a lot of stuff Hugh Padgham touched. (Phil Collins, Sting)
Manny Maroquin, Brauer...
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Post by the other mark williams on Jul 16, 2022 0:38:17 GMT -6
So...I've been listening to more stuff the last week than I have in years. Some things I held up high on the "great sounding" chart...don't sound as great as I thought. On the other hand, some others sound fantastic. I'm finding I love a lot of stuff Hugh Padgham touched. (Phil Collins, Sting) It feels weird to say that Padgham’s work is underrated and underappreciated, but…yeah, it kinda is. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 16, 2022 0:43:07 GMT -6
So...I've been listening to more stuff the last week than I have in years. Some things I held up high on the "great sounding" chart...don't sound as great as I thought. On the other hand, some others sound fantastic. I'm finding I love a lot of stuff Hugh Padgham touched. (Phil Collins, Sting) It feels weird to say that Padgham’s work is underrated and underappreciated, but…yeah, it kinda is. I Don't Care Anymore Phil Collins sounds like it could have been recorded last week. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 16, 2022 1:00:30 GMT -6
Holy shit. How Deep Is Your Love is a masterpiece.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 16, 2022 1:07:02 GMT -6
OK - one last one... One of my favorite albums - Foy Vance "Hope"...Tchad Blake.
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Post by sean on Jul 16, 2022 4:53:03 GMT -6
I think it’s clear that you’re not just noticing you can do better work but are enjoying listening to music which to me is well worth the cost.
I think the Trinnov is going to be the move for me at home…I have a shit ton of treatment and even with the help of some consultations it’s still weird/not enjoyable just because of the physical dimensions and layout of the space and I can’t (or not willing) to do construction to fix that.
And all the room treatment makes the space feel even smaller and kind of like shit and I don’t want to be down there
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Post by bgrotto on Jul 16, 2022 6:45:56 GMT -6
Very, very compelling thread and product. Thanks for sharing this, @johnkenn and others.
Is the Trinnov able to save multiple profiles? Also, because I'm someone who works in a few different rooms, I'd love to hear how easy do you reckon it'd be to move the system between them? I'd love to be able to purchase a unit, save profiles for each room, and have an easy time managing the I/o connections so I can make a Trinnov a part of my traveling rig. Any insights there?
Thanks!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2022 7:18:59 GMT -6
I think it’s clear that you’re not just noticing you can do better work but are enjoying listening to music which to me is well worth the cost. I think the Trinnov is going to be the move for me at home…I have a shit ton of treatment and even with the help of some consultations it’s still weird/not enjoyable just because of the physical dimensions and layout of the space and I can’t (or not willing) to do construction to fix that. I recently contacted GIK about all the data I've acquired and my room pretty much measures +- 4dB all the way down to 38Hz, some parts are better of course and they're +- 2dB but the point is it's not bad. I discussed moving to a room pretty much twice the size but there's no real guarantee said large room would make much of a difference.
I bought the ARC 3 system which also corrects for phase response, although my monitors have DSP and it does somehow paint a nigh on perfect stereo image so I just leave it off. Even though my setup is relatively accurate I could never call it enjoyable, impressive? Sure, especially to none engineers who've never heard a phantom surround come out of two speakers before. Enjoyable? Nah, it's too "anechoic" due to all the treatment and whilst obviously it's nowhere near as bad as an actual chamber the room is pretty dry despite scatter plates.
My point is there's always going to be some trade off's in the pursuit of accuracy.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,107
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Post by ericn on Jul 16, 2022 8:13:51 GMT -6
So...I've been listening to more stuff the last week than I have in years. Some things I held up high on the "great sounding" chart...don't sound as great as I thought. On the other hand, some others sound fantastic. I'm finding I love a lot of stuff Hugh Padgham touched. (Phil Collins, Sting) Manny Maroquin, Brauer... Yeah it’s fun Try the intro to How does a Duck know “ by Crash test Dummies” that kick has sown how slow a lot of “ great speakers are”. It really shows off and I hate to admit that the system in the Tesla is damn good. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 16, 2022 8:34:49 GMT -6
Very, very compelling thread and product. Thanks for sharing this, @johnkenn and others. Is the Trinnov able to save multiple profiles? Also, because I'm someone who works in a few different rooms, I'd love to hear how easy do you reckon it'd be to move the system between them? I'd love to be able to purchase a unit, save profiles for each room, and have an easy time managing the I/o connections so I can make a Trinnov a part of my traveling rig. Any insights there? Thanks! Yeah. I think it has 4 tabs of presets with 9 slots? So 36 presets slots. Might be more. It’s a big 19” rack computer. Not particularly light. You could easily put it in a gator case. Once you’ve done the measuring, it’s just a matter of connecting the interface into it and then out to the DA or straight to the speakers. So as few as 2 cables. Also, measuring takes about 5 minutes. It’s 3 bursts on each side…and that’s it. No moving around the room like Sonarworks. |
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