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Post by Quint on Jul 12, 2022 7:52:06 GMT -6
Is that the conversion guts of a Digi002 inside the the MiniDSP or something? No they just sound that bad! I like the box without conversion, almost bought the 8 ch and a Mytek to use for prototyping and tuning. That's one thing that kind of gives me pause about these sort of hardware boxes. You spend all of this time settling on what you want for your main mix DA conversion and then you potentially end up running it through a second round of conversion that you may not be so happy with, regardless of the nice functionality that said hardware box may bring to the table. I like the idea of these boxes, but it does make you wonder. I had assumed that the Dirac probably had pretty good conversion, so this is a little surprising to hear, but it's good to know. At least you can purchase the software independently and use it on your own computer. That said, the ability to let the box just do it's thing in the background, without having to worry about cpu and things, is not without it's worth. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 12, 2022 8:15:09 GMT -6
No they just sound that bad! I like the box without conversion, almost bought the 8 ch and a Mytek to use for prototyping and tuning. That's one thing that kind of gives me pause about these sort of hardware boxes. You spend all of this time settling on what you want for your main mix DA conversion and then you potentially end up running it through a second round of conversion that you may not be so happy with, regardless of the nice functionality that said hardware box may bring to the table. I like the idea of these boxes, but it does make you wonder. I had assumed that the Dirac probably had pretty good conversion, so this is a little surprising to hear, but it's good to know. At least you can purchase the software independently and use it on your own computer. That said, the ability to let the box just do it's thing in the background, without having to worry about cpu and things, is not without it's worth. I Agree 100% but let’s not forget if your active monitors use DSP there is no way to bypass or choose your converters. |
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Post by Quint on Jul 12, 2022 8:30:02 GMT -6
That's one thing that kind of gives me pause about these sort of hardware boxes. You spend all of this time settling on what you want for your main mix DA conversion and then you potentially end up running it through a second round of conversion that you may not be so happy with, regardless of the nice functionality that said hardware box may bring to the table. I like the idea of these boxes, but it does make you wonder. I had assumed that the Dirac probably had pretty good conversion, so this is a little surprising to hear, but it's good to know. At least you can purchase the software independently and use it on your own computer. That said, the ability to let the box just do it's thing in the background, without having to worry about cpu and things, is not without it's worth. I Agree 100% but let’s not forget if your active monitors use DSP there is no way to bypass or choose your converters. Conversion associated with DSP-based monitors is definitely something I've thought about. Thus far in my testing of the Lyd 48s, I don't feel like I'm noticing any negative impact, though it would probably be hard to make an objective comparison because my current non-DSP monitors are otherwise an inferior monitor. There's too many variables to make an objective conclusion on the direct impact of any conversion on the whole thing. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 12, 2022 8:49:29 GMT -6
I Agree 100% but let’s not forget if your active monitors use DSP there is no way to bypass or choose your converters. Conversion associated with DSP-based monitors is definitely something I've thought about. Thus far in my testing of the Lyd 48s, I don't feel like I'm noticing any negative impact, though it would probably be hard to make an objective comparison because my current non-DSP monitors are otherwise an inferior monitor. There's too many variables to make an objective conclusion on the direct impact of any conversion on the whole thing. And this is where it gets tricky, DSP just makes things easy and cheap as well as I can do things that would be impossible in an analog system. Is it worth the sonic price of sub par conversion ? It’s the new audio version of which came first the chicken or the egg? We can debate it but there is no real overall answer. It simply comes down to what works for you. The other fun thing is you add DSP and conversion you add latency. I can’t diss anyone for going either route, but I’ll say this I really wish more manufacturers were as focused on lowering distortion as ATC. |
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Post by Quint on Jul 12, 2022 9:05:48 GMT -6
Conversion associated with DSP-based monitors is definitely something I've thought about. Thus far in my testing of the Lyd 48s, I don't feel like I'm noticing any negative impact, though it would probably be hard to make an objective comparison because my current non-DSP monitors are otherwise an inferior monitor. There's too many variables to make an objective conclusion on the direct impact of any conversion on the whole thing. And this is where it gets tricky, DSP just makes things easy and cheap as well as I can do things that would be impossible in an analog system. Is it worth the sonic price of sub par conversion ? It’s the new audio version of which came first the chicken or the egg? We can debate it but there is no real overall answer. It simply comes down to what works for you. The other fun thing is you add DSP and conversion you add latency. I can’t diss anyone for going either route, but I’ll say this I really wish more manufacturers were as focused on lowering distortion as ATC. I thought about some ATC two ways for a minute when I was looking at monitors in my price range, but I just really wanted a pair of three ways. Thus far, I'm pretty happy with narrowing my search down to only three ways. I can hear midrange in a noticeably better way, and the distortion, especially in the bass region, is noticeably lower on these Lyds than my current monitors. I suppose that, in a perfect world, I would only entertain the the idea of 100% analog monitors, but DSP does bring some things to the table that, like mentioned, would be hard or even impossible in the analog realm, especially when price is a consideration. Speaking of latency, I would guess the latency is typically really low when DSP is used in monitors. I'm talking like in the realm on 1 ms, but maybe I'm wrong about that. |
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Post by thehightenor on Jul 12, 2022 9:24:44 GMT -6
No they just sound that bad! I like the box without conversion, almost bought the 8 ch and a Mytek to use for prototyping and tuning. That's one thing that kind of gives me pause about these sort of hardware boxes. You spend all of this time settling on what you want for your main mix DA conversion and then you potentially end up running it through a second round of conversion that you may not be so happy with, regardless of the nice functionality that said hardware box may bring to the table. I like the idea of these boxes, but it does make you wonder. I had assumed that the Dirac probably had pretty good conversion, so this is a little surprising to hear, but it's good to know. At least you can purchase the software independently and use it on your own computer. That said, the ability to let the box just do it's thing in the background, without having to worry about cpu and things, is not without it's worth. That's actually a very good point I hadn't considered about getting a Trinnov. I feed my ATC 25's from a Crane Song Avocet or from my HEDD 192 (via the Avocet) when monitoring the processing on my stereo mix bus. It took me a lot of saving and research to end up using Crane Song conversion and I really don't want to loose that as I love the sound and ultra high resolution of Dave Hill's converters. I have a very well treated room and the ATC 25's and in truth I have zero issues with mixes translating to the outside world as I find the ATC 25's so darn accurate and ultra low distortion especially in the low mids and mids where 90% of mix issues reside. Great thread and very interesting, but in my case if it ain't broke don't fix it. Money towards a Neve 8424 .... well it's good to have a dream item on your wish list :-) |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 12, 2022 9:25:29 GMT -6
And this is where it gets tricky, DSP just makes things easy and cheap as well as I can do things that would be impossible in an analog system. Is it worth the sonic price of sub par conversion ? It’s the new audio version of which came first the chicken or the egg? We can debate it but there is no real overall answer. It simply comes down to what works for you. The other fun thing is you add DSP and conversion you add latency. I can’t diss anyone for going either route, but I’ll say this I really wish more manufacturers were as focused on lowering distortion as ATC. I thought about some ATC two ways for a minute when I was looking at monitors in my price range, but I just really wanted a pair of three ways. Thus far, I'm pretty happy with narrowing my search down to only three ways. I can hear midrange in a noticeably better way, and the distortion, especially in the bass region, is noticeably lower on these Lyds than my current monitors. I suppose that, in a perfect world, I would only entertain the the idea of 100% analog monitors, but DSP does bring some things to the table that, like mentioned, would be hard or even impossible in the analog realm, especially when price is a consideration. Speaking of latency, I would guess the latency is typically really low when DSP is used in monitors. I'm talking like in the realm on 1 ms, but maybe I'm wrong about that. You bring up more good points, in general I do prefer a good 3 way, but everything is a series of trade offs. It all comes down to personal preference. Where latency really comes into play is adding all these things together what is my total latency? . Now I will admit I find it hysterical when someone is using GC private label monitors with correction software and is raving about how great it sounds, really how about getting some Lower distortion and band width. |
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ji43
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Post by ji43 on Jul 12, 2022 9:34:53 GMT -6
I use Trinnov w/ an Avocet. AES from an Aurora(n) into Trinnov, AES out to the Avocet, so the Trinnov is doing all of it's work digitally, and the DAC is the high end Crane Song. Works perfectly. I actually have an AES splitter cable as well from Aurora, bypassing the Trinnov and going into AVOCET DIG Input 2, so with a single button on my Avocet Remote, I can bypass Trinnov completely; this is great for tracking, when I am in headhpones; bypasses trinnov and the associated latency. Couldn't be happier with this setup.
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Post by Quint on Jul 12, 2022 9:41:17 GMT -6
I use Trinnov w/ an Avocet. AES from an Aurora(n) into Trinnov, AES out to the Avocet, so the Trinnov is doing all of it's work digitally, and the DAC is the high end Crane Song. Works perfectly. I actually have an AES splitter cable as well from Aurora, bypassing the Trinnov and going into AVOCET DIG Input 2, so with a single button on my Avocet Remote, I can bypass Trinnov completely; this is great for tracking, when I am in headhpones; bypasses trinnov and the associated latency. Couldn't be happier with this setup. If that's how the Trinnov works then, yeah, that'd be the best way to do it. I didn't realize that the Trinnov could do it all in the digital realm, sans any AD/DA. Can the Dirac hardware do this? |
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Post by indiehouse on Jul 12, 2022 9:48:01 GMT -6
I use Trinnov w/ an Avocet. AES from an Aurora(n) into Trinnov, AES out to the Avocet, so the Trinnov is doing all of it's work digitally, and the DAC is the high end Crane Song. Works perfectly. I actually have an AES splitter cable as well from Aurora, bypassing the Trinnov and going into AVOCET DIG Input 2, so with a single button on my Avocet Remote, I can bypass Trinnov completely; this is great for tracking, when I am in headhpones; bypasses trinnov and the associated latency. Couldn't be happier with this setup. If that's how the Trinnov works then, yeah, that'd be the best way to do it. I didn't realize that the Trinnov could do it all in the digital realm, sans any AD/DA. Can the Dirac hardware do this? I think there is an all digital version of the miniDSP. |
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Post by svart on Jul 12, 2022 10:24:08 GMT -6
Weren't you using the REW software or something?
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Post by Quint on Jul 12, 2022 12:07:55 GMT -6
If that's how the Trinnov works then, yeah, that'd be the best way to do it. I didn't realize that the Trinnov could do it all in the digital realm, sans any AD/DA. Can the Dirac hardware do this? I think there is an all digital version of the miniDSP. I'm seeing that now. The studio version with AES looks to be $1000. |
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Post by thehightenor on Jul 12, 2022 12:18:14 GMT -6
I use Trinnov w/ an Avocet. AES from an Aurora(n) into Trinnov, AES out to the Avocet, so the Trinnov is doing all of it's work digitally, and the DAC is the high end Crane Song. Works perfectly. I actually have an AES splitter cable as well from Aurora, bypassing the Trinnov and going into AVOCET DIG Input 2, so with a single button on my Avocet Remote, I can bypass Trinnov completely; this is great for tracking, when I am in headhpones; bypasses trinnov and the associated latency. Couldn't be happier with this setup. Oh very cool - that would be a great solution for me. I have a Z systems AES digital detangler so that will do the split for me to check the mixes both ways. Thanks for sharing your set-up. |
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Post by drbill on Jul 12, 2022 14:27:46 GMT -6
re: Dirac vs, Trinnov - I think Hedback recommended Dirac over Trinnov when I was building my room, but that was a few years ago. I investigated it back then, but there was hardly any data out there about it. I didn't want the hassle of either honestly. Ultimately, we got the room almost ruler flat without it. Sounds good? Don't try to fix what ain't broke. I've been happy.... Stuff is translating.
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Post by Darren Boling on Jul 12, 2022 15:40:10 GMT -6
Is the Dirac version that runs on the computer as a plugin not as well regarded as the hardware box? I remember when I demoed it I preferred it to Sonarworks.
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Post by thehightenor on Jul 12, 2022 15:51:51 GMT -6
re: Dirac vs, Trinnov - I think Hedback recommended Dirac over Trinnov when I was building my room, but that was a few years ago. I investigated it back then, but there was hardly any data out there about it. I didn't want the hassle of either honestly. Ultimately, we got the room almost ruler flat without it. Sounds good? Don't try to fix what ain't broke. I've been happy.... Stuff is translating. I think that’s the key element. The Trinnov has definitely tweaked my interest. It appears to be a great unit, with a fantastic across the board reputation and positive feedback. But I remind myself I have no translation issues whatsoever so the old rule of “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it” means it’s probably not the best use of such a large sum of money for my set up. |
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Post by svart on Jul 12, 2022 15:56:06 GMT -6
Would love to hear a mix done before and after the unit to give an objective critique of whether the box makes a difference to someone not invested in it..
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 12, 2022 16:06:37 GMT -6
I could be wrong, but I don't think the Dirac does time and phase? Regardless - this has really completely changed things for me. I'm just repeating what everyone that had one said to me before I go it. I would say maybe Sound ID will get you 70% of the way there...but as we know in this obsession, the last bits are usually more expensive and really gets you all the way there. The phase and delay adjustments are what make this stand out. The imaging is kind've nuts...and things I've previously had some issues with - reverb level, stereo width and panning resolution, trusting that what you're hearing is going to translate everywhere - it has been eye-opening. for the first few days, when dialing it in and listening to other major label releases, yeah - it sounded better than SW, but it wasn't like night and day. Those releases sounded great on SW too. Tighter and objectively better on the Trinnov, but $4300 better? I wasn't sure. But then I started mixing with it. My first attempt at a mix I had been in the middle of just came out tremendously better than previous versions. My mixes could be kind've "scooped" in comparison to major label releases. When I'd get it in the car, you could tell. There was like a plastic-ness that I couldn't get a hold of. Honestly, I had kind've attributed it to the "Oh, I guess they have tens of thousands of dollars of outboard, mixing on consoles, etc." But now I feel like mine - even with my temporary mastering sounds extremely competitive. In fact, I sent that first mix to Chad and he said he compared it to the new Keith Urban release - and he preferred mine. Now - maybe he's just being nice, but I honestly don't know if I disagree. (Not totally sure I like that new KU mix, though) It really makes me think punch and heft is less a result of transformers (sure, it's that too) and hardware, etc...and more a result in the mixer being able to actually HEAR. I feel like this is one of those purchases that can put you onto a new plateau. |
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Post by Chad on Jul 12, 2022 16:08:49 GMT -6
I could be wrong, but I don't think the Dirac does time and phase? Regardless - this has really completely changed things for me. I'm just repeating what everyone that had one said to me before I go it. I would say maybe Sound ID will get you 70% of the way there...but as we know in this obsession, the last bits are usually more expensive and really gets you all the way there. The phase and delay adjustments are what make this stand out. The imaging is kind've nuts...and things I've previously had some issues with - reverb level, stereo width and panning resolution, trusting that what you're hearing is going to translate everywhere - it has been eye-opening. for the first few days, when dialing it in and listening to other major label releases, yeah - it sounded better than SW, but it wasn't like night and day. Those releases sounded great on SW too. Tighter and objectively better on the Trinnov, but $4300 better? I wasn't sure. But then I started mixing with it. My first attempt at a mix I had been in the middle of just came out tremendously better than previous versions. My mixes could be kind've "scooped" in comparison to major label releases. When I'd get it in the car, you could tell. There was like a plastic-ness that I couldn't get a hold of. Honestly, I had kind've attributed it to the "Oh, I guess they have tens of thousands of dollars of outboard, mixing on consoles, etc." But now I feel like mine - even with my temporary mastering sounds extremely competitive. In fact, I sent that first mix to Chad and he said he compared it to the new Keith Urban release - and he preferred mine. Now - maybe he's just being nice, but I honestly don't know if I disagree. (Not totally sure I like that new KU mix, though) It really makes me think punch and heft is less a result of transformers (sure, it's that too) and hardware, etc...and more a result in the mixer being able to actually HEAR. I feel like this is one of those purchases that can put you onto a new plateau. Nope, not just being nice, I still stand by that comment. Yours sounded better than the Urban song. |
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Post by thehightenor on Jul 12, 2022 16:43:14 GMT -6
I could be wrong, but I don't think the Dirac does time and phase? Regardless - this has really completely changed things for me. I'm just repeating what everyone that had one said to me before I go it. I would say maybe Sound ID will get you 70% of the way there...but as we know in this obsession, the last bits are usually more expensive and really gets you all the way there. The phase and delay adjustments are what make this stand out. The imaging is kind've nuts...and things I've previously had some issues with - reverb level, stereo width and panning resolution, trusting that what you're hearing is going to translate everywhere - it has been eye-opening. for the first few days, when dialing it in and listening to other major label releases, yeah - it sounded better than SW, but it wasn't like night and day. Those releases sounded great on SW too. Tighter and objectively better on the Trinnov, but $4300 better? I wasn't sure. But then I started mixing with it. My first attempt at a mix I had been in the middle of just came out tremendously better than previous versions. My mixes could be kind've "scooped" in comparison to major label releases. When I'd get it in the car, you could tell. There was like a plastic-ness that I couldn't get a hold of. Honestly, I had kind've attributed it to the "Oh, I guess they have tens of thousands of dollars of outboard, mixing on consoles, etc." But now I feel like mine - even with my temporary mastering sounds extremely competitive. In fact, I sent that first mix to Chad and he said he compared it to the new Keith Urban release - and he preferred mine. Now - maybe he's just being nice, but I honestly don't know if I disagree. (Not totally sure I like that new KU mix, though) It really makes me think punch and heft is less a result of transformers (sure, it's that too) and hardware, etc...and more a result in the mixer being able to actually HEAR. I feel like this is one of those purchases that can put you onto a new plateau. What speakers do you mix on? Your comments are interesting, because I got all those experiences and revelations and translation certainty when I upgraded from K&H 0300’s to ATC 25’s (used in a flat response treated room I should add) I just couldn’t trust the 0300’s even though I’d used them for 12 years - they were too soft and polite they never screamed at me to fix things! The ATC 25’s are brutally honest. The mid information is almost scary. It sounds like the Trinnov is giving you that kinda degree of certainty which is fantastic - makes mixing with total confidence possible. |
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Post by nobtwiddler on Jul 12, 2022 16:57:45 GMT -6
And yet.....
I wonder how is it possible that we have so many SONICALLY AMAZING / World Class Mixes, over the years without any room correction software.
For me less is always more...
But if it works for everyone else!
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 12, 2022 17:13:05 GMT -6
And yet..... I wonder how is it possible that we have so many SONICALLY AMAZING / World Class Mixes, over the years without any room correction software. For me less is always more... But if it works for everyone else! Lots of revisions. And most likely, they were in world class studios that had spent world class money on acoustic treatment. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 12, 2022 17:13:27 GMT -6
I could be wrong, but I don't think the Dirac does time and phase? Regardless - this has really completely changed things for me. I'm just repeating what everyone that had one said to me before I go it. I would say maybe Sound ID will get you 70% of the way there...but as we know in this obsession, the last bits are usually more expensive and really gets you all the way there. The phase and delay adjustments are what make this stand out. The imaging is kind've nuts...and things I've previously had some issues with - reverb level, stereo width and panning resolution, trusting that what you're hearing is going to translate everywhere - it has been eye-opening. for the first few days, when dialing it in and listening to other major label releases, yeah - it sounded better than SW, but it wasn't like night and day. Those releases sounded great on SW too. Tighter and objectively better on the Trinnov, but $4300 better? I wasn't sure. But then I started mixing with it. My first attempt at a mix I had been in the middle of just came out tremendously better than previous versions. My mixes could be kind've "scooped" in comparison to major label releases. When I'd get it in the car, you could tell. There was like a plastic-ness that I couldn't get a hold of. Honestly, I had kind've attributed it to the "Oh, I guess they have tens of thousands of dollars of outboard, mixing on consoles, etc." But now I feel like mine - even with my temporary mastering sounds extremely competitive. In fact, I sent that first mix to Chad and he said he compared it to the new Keith Urban release - and he preferred mine. Now - maybe he's just being nice, but I honestly don't know if I disagree. (Not totally sure I like that new KU mix, though) It really makes me think punch and heft is less a result of transformers (sure, it's that too) and hardware, etc...and more a result in the mixer being able to actually HEAR. I feel like this is one of those purchases that can put you onto a new plateau. What speakers do you mix on? Your comments are interesting, because I got all those experiences and revelations and translation certainty when I upgraded from K&H 0300’s to ATC 25’s (used in a flat response treated room I should add) I just couldn’t trust the 0300’s even though I’d used them for 12 years - they were too soft and polite they never screamed at me to fix things! The ATC 25’s are brutally honest. The mid information is almost scary. It sounds like the Trinnov is giving you that kinda degree of certainty which is fantastic - makes mixing with total confidence possible. Amphion One 18s with a sub |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 12, 2022 17:16:02 GMT -6
And btw - I'm not saying I'm better than whoever mixed KU's new song for goodness sakes lol. But it held up IMO. That's a big step for me.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 12, 2022 17:24:53 GMT -6
And yet..... I wonder how is it possible that we have so many SONICALLY AMAZING / World Class Mixes, over the years without any room correction software. For me less is always more... But if it works for everyone else! Hey Paul have you tried any of these software solutions on your Wilson’s? I spent some time last week listening to The Sashadaw, wish they would have something Besides Mac powering them. |
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