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Post by kristoferharris on Jul 12, 2022 19:18:31 GMT -6
What speakers do you mix on? Your comments are interesting, because I got all those experiences and revelations and translation certainty when I upgraded from K&H 0300’s to ATC 25’s (used in a flat response treated room I should add) I just couldn’t trust the 0300’s even though I’d used them for 12 years - they were too soft and polite they never screamed at me to fix things! The ATC 25’s are brutally honest. The mid information is almost scary. It sounds like the Trinnov is giving you that kinda degree of certainty which is fantastic - makes mixing with total confidence possible. I also went from O300's to ATC 25's. Using the Trinnov. Also 4xPSI AVAA bass absorbers (bit OTT) + all the usual treatment. The phase correction alone is pretty phenomenal to experience. Hard to turn your back on the concept once you've experienced it. The hype surrounding the Trinnov is very much justified. As much as I love the 25's, the phase response (in my room at least!) is kind of shoddy when compared to something like PSI A23's which I've demo'd (in the same room). Trinnov really helps to kick them up a notch. Also, having a decent room doesn't devalue the Trinnov in any way. The less heavy an EQ it's doing, the better it's going to sound. I'm on +-4db and it sounds super clean. Particularly if you run it at 96k. I'm clocking from a Dangerous AD. I am too making use of the digital connections but currently using the Trinnov DA. Considering trying out some DACs to get a better idea of what sort of level the Trinnov conversion is on. I think the benefits of the correction pretty heavily outweigh any potential shortcomings in its DA, so I've not been in any hurry! |
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Post by sirthought on Jul 12, 2022 19:32:03 GMT -6
What speakers do you mix on? Your comments are interesting, because I got all those experiences and revelations and translation certainty when I upgraded from K&H 0300’s to ATC 25’s (used in a flat response treated room I should add) I just couldn’t trust the 0300’s even though I’d used them for 12 years - they were too soft and polite they never screamed at me to fix things! The ATC 25’s are brutally honest. The mid information is almost scary. It sounds like the Trinnov is giving you that kinda degree of certainty which is fantastic - makes mixing with total confidence possible. I also went from O300's to ATC 25's. Using the Trinnov. Also 4xPSI AVAA bass absorbers (bit OTT) + all the usual treatment. The phase correction alone is pretty phenomenal to experience. Hard to turn your back on the concept once you've experienced it. The hype surrounding the Trinnov is very much justified. As much as I love the 25's, the phase response (in my room at least!) is kind of shoddy when compared to something like PSI A23's which I've demo'd (in the same room). Trinnov really helps to kick them up a notch. Also, having a decent room doesn't devalue the Trinnov in any way. The less heavy an EQ it's doing, the better it's going to sound. I'm on +-4db and it sounds super clean. Particularly if you run it at 96k. I'm clocking from a Dangerous AD. I am too making use of the digital connections but currently using the Trinnov DA. Considering trying out some DACs to get a better idea of what sort of level the Trinnov conversion is on. I think the benefits of the correction pretty heavily outweigh any potential shortcomings in its DA, so I've not been in any hurry! Welcome to the board. |
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Post by Quint on Jul 12, 2022 20:22:15 GMT -6
I could be wrong, but I don't think the Dirac does time and phase? Regardless - this has really completely changed things for me. I'm just repeating what everyone that had one said to me before I go it. I would say maybe Sound ID will get you 70% of the way there...but as we know in this obsession, the last bits are usually more expensive and really gets you all the way there. The phase and delay adjustments are what make this stand out. The imaging is kind've nuts...and things I've previously had some issues with - reverb level, stereo width and panning resolution, trusting that what you're hearing is going to translate everywhere - it has been eye-opening. for the first few days, when dialing it in and listening to other major label releases, yeah - it sounded better than SW, but it wasn't like night and day. Those releases sounded great on SW too. Tighter and objectively better on the Trinnov, but $4300 better? I wasn't sure. But then I started mixing with it. My first attempt at a mix I had been in the middle of just came out tremendously better than previous versions. My mixes could be kind've "scooped" in comparison to major label releases. When I'd get it in the car, you could tell. There was like a plastic-ness that I couldn't get a hold of. Honestly, I had kind've attributed it to the "Oh, I guess they have tens of thousands of dollars of outboard, mixing on consoles, etc." But now I feel like mine - even with my temporary mastering sounds extremely competitive. In fact, I sent that first mix to Chad and he said he compared it to the new Keith Urban release - and he preferred mine. Now - maybe he's just being nice, but I honestly don't know if I disagree. (Not totally sure I like that new KU mix, though) It really makes me think punch and heft is less a result of transformers (sure, it's that too) and hardware, etc...and more a result in the mixer being able to actually HEAR. I feel like this is one of those purchases that can put you onto a new plateau. What speakers do you mix on? Your comments are interesting, because I got all those experiences and revelations and translation certainty when I upgraded from K&H 0300’s to ATC 25’s (used in a flat response treated room I should add) I just couldn’t trust the 0300’s even though I’d used them for 12 years - they were too soft and polite they never screamed at me to fix things! The ATC 25’s are brutally honest. The mid information is almost scary. It sounds like the Trinnov is giving you that kinda degree of certainty which is fantastic - makes mixing with total confidence possible. Tell me more about your "polite" comments in regards to the O300. I've heard similar comments about the Neumann kh310, which are more or less the successors to the O300s, and I've got a pair of those kh310s in right now for comparison against a pair of Lyd 48s. I've sort of started to feel like maybe I know what people mean when they've made such comments about the O300 or kh310. But I'd still be curious to hear you elaborate on this. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 12, 2022 20:34:34 GMT -6
What speakers do you mix on? Your comments are interesting, because I got all those experiences and revelations and translation certainty when I upgraded from K&H 0300’s to ATC 25’s (used in a flat response treated room I should add) I just couldn’t trust the 0300’s even though I’d used them for 12 years - they were too soft and polite they never screamed at me to fix things! The ATC 25’s are brutally honest. The mid information is almost scary. It sounds like the Trinnov is giving you that kinda degree of certainty which is fantastic - makes mixing with total confidence possible. I also went from O300's to ATC 25's. Using the Trinnov. Also 4xPSI AVAA bass absorbers (bit OTT) + all the usual treatment. The phase correction alone is pretty phenomenal to experience. Hard to turn your back on the concept once you've experienced it. The hype surrounding the Trinnov is very much justified. As much as I love the 25's, the phase response (in my room at least!) is kind of shoddy when compared to something like PSI A23's which I've demo'd (in the same room). Trinnov really helps to kick them up a notch. Also, having a decent room doesn't devalue the Trinnov in any way. The less heavy an EQ it's doing, the better it's going to sound. I'm on +-4db and it sounds super clean. Particularly if you run it at 96k. I'm clocking from a Dangerous AD. I am too making use of the digital connections but currently using the Trinnov DA. Considering trying out some DACs to get a better idea of what sort of level the Trinnov conversion is on. I think the benefits of the correction pretty heavily outweigh any potential shortcomings in its DA, so I've not been in any hurry! I would agree with the idea of what the Trinnov does outweighs any potential shortcoming of its DA. |
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Post by drumsound on Jul 12, 2022 21:41:22 GMT -6
And this is where it gets tricky, DSP just makes things easy and cheap as well as I can do things that would be impossible in an analog system. Is it worth the sonic price of sub par conversion ? It’s the new audio version of which came first the chicken or the egg? We can debate it but there is no real overall answer. It simply comes down to what works for you. The other fun thing is you add DSP and conversion you add latency. I can’t diss anyone for going either route, but I’ll say this I really wish more manufacturers were as focused on lowering distortion as ATC. I thought about some ATC two ways for a minute when I was looking at monitors in my price range, but I just really wanted a pair of three ways. Thus far, I'm pretty happy with narrowing my search down to only three ways. I can hear midrange in a noticeably better way, and the distortion, especially in the bass region, is noticeably lower on these Lyds than my current monitors. I suppose that, in a perfect world, I would only entertain the the idea of 100% analog monitors, but DSP does bring some things to the table that, like mentioned, would be hard or even impossible in the analog realm, especially when price is a consideration. Speaking of latency, I would guess the latency is typically really low when DSP is used in monitors. I'm talking like in the realm on 1 ms, but maybe I'm wrong about that. I've been talking to a local guy who builds speakers as a hobby. He's into dipole designs and I went by his place about a month ago and we talked about some things and I listened to his smaller speakers. He uses a Daytonaudio DSP box and believes the latency to be minimal. He's since built a prototype studio 3-was system that we're going to instal into my place sometimes soon. I'm a little concerned about tracking in the control room, and live fader rides. We'll see. The speakers are pretty crazy cool. A sealed sub with an aluminum driver and then 2 ribbons for mid and high in a dipole design. Triamped with the Daytonaudio box doing time and frequency correction. If I like them, and can work on them, then I'll have to figure out how to pay for them... |
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Post by thehightenor on Jul 13, 2022 1:04:39 GMT -6
What speakers do you mix on? Your comments are interesting, because I got all those experiences and revelations and translation certainty when I upgraded from K&H 0300’s to ATC 25’s (used in a flat response treated room I should add) I just couldn’t trust the 0300’s even though I’d used them for 12 years - they were too soft and polite they never screamed at me to fix things! The ATC 25’s are brutally honest. The mid information is almost scary. It sounds like the Trinnov is giving you that kinda degree of certainty which is fantastic - makes mixing with total confidence possible. Tell me more about your "polite" comments in regards to the O300. I've heard similar comments about the Neumann kh310, which are more or less the successors to the O300s, and I've got a pair of those kh310s in right now for comparison against a pair of Lyd 48s. I've sort of started to feel like maybe I know what people mean when they've made such comments about the O300 or kh310. But I'd still be curious to hear you elaborate on this. Well any comment I make is of course highly subjective, but to my ears the 0300’s have a kind of Hi-Fi almost “electronic” quality to them. Everything sounds “nice” everything sounds “polite” for want of a better word. For example you can have a hi-hat at -18dbfs and it works. Push it up to -12dbfs and it still works because it just sounds “nicer” louder as opposed to too loud. I could never be sure when anything was wrong because they sound really smooth and everything gets this happy validation. That was always my issue with them, definitely non fatiguing though and so long sessions where easy. Then I moved to ATC 25’s and suddenly I have exactly what I was looking for, I mean to my ears these monitors are brutal. Hi hats at -18dbfs (as an arbitrary example) sound great push them up to -12 dbfs and the 25’s scream back at you “what are you doing idiot” …. that’s exactly what I want from mix monitors. The mix is either perfectly balanced or it just sounds wrong. The mid information on the 25 is insane, I joke I can listen to a mix and tell you what brand of sticks the drummer was using. It’s like X ray vidion for mixing. I just never got that experience with my 0300’s. They got retired as hi fi speakers to a living room. Now of course this dreaded thread has me jonesing for a Trinnov - I really should stay away from audio forums! |
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Post by trakworxmastering on Jul 13, 2022 9:46:06 GMT -6
I could be wrong, but I don't think the Dirac does time and phase? Dirac does do time and phase. I'll be trying the free 14 day demo soon. If it doesn't do it for me then I'll probably try a Trinnov, as this thread has me intrigued. Thanks for that! |
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Post by gwlee7 on Jul 13, 2022 14:03:03 GMT -6
And btw - I'm not saying I'm better than whoever mixed KU's new song for goodness sakes lol. But it held up IMO. That's a big step for me. Well, I am excited to be sending some more stuff to you soon. My guys (and one gal) love what you done for us recently. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 13, 2022 16:13:20 GMT -6
I could be wrong, but I don't think the Dirac does time and phase? Dirac does do time and phase. I'll be trying the free 14 day demo soon. If it doesn't do it for me then I'll probably try a Trinnov, as this thread has me intrigued. Thanks for that! Well shit...let me know if I overspent. |
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Post by kristoferharris on Jul 13, 2022 18:10:50 GMT -6
Dirac does do time and phase. I'll be trying the free 14 day demo soon. If it doesn't do it for me then I'll probably try a Trinnov, as this thread has me intrigued. Thanks for that! Well shit...let me know if I overspent. There's also Acourate... haven't tried it myself. Seems a bit fiddly but comprehensive. I like that Trinnov works independently from the computer/DAW. Sonarworks was a bit of a drag in that regard. I figure the 3D mic situation is in some way one-upping the competition. I have a single criticism and that's to do with the way Trinnov integrates subs/LFE. Interested to hear how you got on with your Amphion setup? I'd prefer to create a crossover with Trinnov DSP, but the issue there is that it applies the crossover AFTER you've measured. The calibration would be whole lot more accurate if the crossover was applied to the test signal. |
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Jul 13, 2022 19:54:16 GMT -6
Johnkenn did you move your monitors based on where the software suggested?
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 13, 2022 19:57:52 GMT -6
Johnkenn did you move your monitors based on where the software suggested? Er…does it suggest? It corrects for that, I thought. |
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Jul 13, 2022 20:02:58 GMT -6
Johnkenn did you move your monitors based on where the software suggested? Er…does it suggest? It corrects for that, I thought. I might be misunderstanding the monitor location as physical versus where it wants your monitors to be based on what it analyses. Are you clocking the ST2 to anything or have you experimented there? |
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Jul 13, 2022 20:09:21 GMT -6
Well shit...let me know if I overspent. There's also Acourate... haven't tried it myself. Seems a bit fiddly but comprehensive. I like that Trinnov works independently from the computer/DAW. Sonarworks was a bit of a drag in that regard. I figure the 3D mic situation is in some way one-upping the competition. I have a single criticism and that's to do with the way Trinnov integrates subs/LFE. Interested to hear how you got on with your Amphion setup? I'd prefer to create a crossover with Trinnov DSP, but the issue there is that it applies the crossover AFTER you've measured. The calibration would be whole lot more accurate if the crossover was applied to the test signal. I get why they do it that way and I’ll try to explain it as simply as I can, basically a crossover is an extreme EQ filter a little fudging one way or another can in fact mean less EQ and phase adjustment. Ideally it should be done as part of the entire alignment, with some input as far as manufacturers suggestion. Ideally it would give you 3 settings 2 toggle between 1 mains with Xover and sub with xover aligned 2 mains full range aligned 3 mains aligned full range with sub aligned “boom box” Plus I would want Mains No aligned |
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Post by sean on Jul 13, 2022 20:24:17 GMT -6
Johnkenn did you move your monitors based on where the software suggested? Er…does it suggest? It corrects for that, I thought. I would think that if it tells you that, say, your left speaker is 2" further back than your right, if you physically corrected that and re-scanned (or whatever its called) it would only be more accurate/less processing required. But I could be wrong! |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 13, 2022 20:26:20 GMT -6
Er…does it suggest? It corrects for that, I thought. I might be misunderstanding the monitor location as physical versus where it wants your monitors to be based on what it analyses. Are you clocking the ST2 to anything or have you experimented there? I’ve looked at the monitor placement page. Definitely shows mine are wonky. Says one is even slightly elevated. But my understanding is that it corrects for your monitor placement. We’re talking inches not feet. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 13, 2022 20:28:26 GMT -6
Er…does it suggest? It corrects for that, I thought. I would think that if it tells you that, say, your left speaker is 2" further back than your right, if you physically corrected that and re-scanned (or whatever its called) it would only be more accurate/less processing required. But I could be wrong! Yeah probably lol. I’ll have to find out more about it. I don’t have a ton of room to move them around on my desk. I’m not completely sure how to read the page. |
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Jul 13, 2022 20:47:09 GMT -6
I would think that if it tells you that, say, your left speaker is 2" further back than your right, if you physically corrected that and re-scanned (or whatever its called) it would only be more accurate/less processing required. But I could be wrong! Yeah probably lol. I’ll have to find out more about it. I don’t have a ton of room to move them around on my desk. I’m not completely sure how to read the page. Have you tried clocking it with the Burl or Convert 2 for shits and gigs? |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 13, 2022 21:03:58 GMT -6
Yeah. It adjusts for those discrepancies. Watch at 15:00
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 13, 2022 21:04:56 GMT -6
Yeah probably lol. I’ll have to find out more about it. I don’t have a ton of room to move them around on my desk. I’m not completely sure how to read the page. Have you tried clocking it with the Burl or Convert 2 for shits and gigs? Yeah. I’m clocking with the Burl AD. And the guy I spoke to said you should measure through the DA you’re using. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 13, 2022 21:09:05 GMT -6
I wonder like sean said - is it better to move those speakers around and then re-meaure? Or just let it do it’s thing? I might have to find out. I also need to move my sub around to see where it affects the bottom mode the least. I just don’t have much of any room to put it other than where it is. My desk is about two feet from the wall and it has a back on it (like in front of your legs and feet.) So I can’t move it to the center because then I’d have no place for my feet. And I don’t think putting it behind would make much sense. |
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Post by kristoferharris on Jul 14, 2022 1:55:50 GMT -6
I would think that if it tells you that, say, your left speaker is 2" further back than your right, if you physically corrected that and re-scanned (or whatever its called) it would only be more accurate/less processing required. But I could be wrong! Yeah probably lol. I’ll have to find out more about it. I don’t have a ton of room to move them around on my desk. I’m not completely sure how to read the page. This can really help to nail your speaker positioning. I prefer the idea of no time alignment when it comes to the mains and it doesn't take too much effort to at least get the distance and angle bang on. |
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Post by thehightenor on Jul 14, 2022 2:13:01 GMT -6
I was thinking, does anyone know if the Trinnov actually can tell you how much processing it’s having to do?
I mean that would be an amazing help in positioning your monitors and adding more room treatment.
It would be fantastic to see the unit doing less as you got things in your room more right organically speaking. Position, physical acoustic treatment etc.
Then the Trinnov is just polishing off any inadequacies of your room shape, treatment and monitor position and limitations of the design of your monitors - though I presume at the higher end of monitors the designer have got close to perfection.
Does the Trinnov have that facility?
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Post by kristoferharris on Jul 14, 2022 3:19:42 GMT -6
I was thinking, does anyone know if the Trinnov actually can tell you how much processing it’s having to do? I mean that would be an amazing help in positioning your monitors and adding more room treatment. It would be fantastic to see the unit doing less as you got things in your room more right organically speaking. Position, physical acoustic treatment etc. Then the Trinnov is just polishing off any inadequacies of your room shape, treatment and monitor position and limitations of the design of your monitors - though I presume at the higher end of monitors the designer have got close to perfection. Does the Trinnov have that facility? It shows before and after graphs, as well as the filter that's being applied for each process (amplitude, phase, impulse, group delay and more). The measurement process is fast too, which encouraged me to experiment. When I first measured I was asking it to do much more than the +-4db I am now. So it's been a great help. Lots of trial and error. Of course I could have used REW or similar. I don't have a lot of space to play with, so I'm pushed up against the front wall where small adjustments in positioning can have a pretty big impact. As well as the positioning of your desk! |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 14, 2022 7:53:31 GMT -6
I was thinking, does anyone know if the Trinnov actually can tell you how much processing it’s having to do? I mean that would be an amazing help in positioning your monitors and adding more room treatment. It would be fantastic to see the unit doing less as you got things in your room more right organically speaking. Position, physical acoustic treatment etc. Then the Trinnov is just polishing off any inadequacies of your room shape, treatment and monitor position and limitations of the design of your monitors - though I presume at the higher end of monitors the designer have got close to perfection. Does the Trinnov have that facility? It shows before and after graphs, as well as the filter that's being applied for each process (amplitude, phase, impulse, group delay and more). The measurement process is fast too, which encouraged me to experiment. When I first measured I was asking it to do much more than the +-4db I am now. So it's been a great help. Lots of trial and error. Of course I could have used REW or similar. I don't have a lot of space to play with, so I'm pushed up against the front wall where small adjustments in positioning can have a pretty big impact. As well as the positioning of your desk! Been meaning to ask this - is it better to have your desk/monitors a couple feet from the wall or against the wall? I’ve heard different things. |
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