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UA Apollo
Jun 10, 2018 20:50:28 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by ragan on Jun 10, 2018 20:50:28 GMT -6
You’re not understanding this. I am very well aware of what causes latency. You DO understand this, right? All I’m saying is I like the workflow of console better. See above. My post was in reaction to software reverb having to "deal with the latency". Using a UA plug in inside Cubase or ProTools or Logic's mixer will increase that mixer's latency by many, many milliseconds. I wasn't reacting to your liking Console better than Maestro. Can’t get around the DAW buffer regardless of individual plugin latency. And even at 128 it still sounds like a flanger compared to TDM/HDX/UA Console/Apogee Control/etc.
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Post by drsax on Jun 10, 2018 21:34:19 GMT -6
Sound quality is very important, But ultimately, I think workflow is absolutely critical. PT HDX, Symphony, & Apollo MKii are all more than sufficient to create top notch recordings and mixes. I do really like the sound of Symphony, but the software implementation and lack of cross platform support make it a no go for me. At the price Apogee is charging for the Symphony, the software implementation should be superb. I went with Apollo for this reason and don’t regret it at all. In addition, the ability to use the UA plugs in real-time is a huge boost in my workflow. I didn’t buy Apollo for the real-time tracking but after having used it, it’s a definite winner. Lots of hardware being used here. But having plugins available to use in real-time has been unexpectedly useful. The Apollo system has been rock solid for me and substantially less expensive than Symphony as well.
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Post by popmann on Jun 10, 2018 21:37:10 GMT -6
See above. My post was in reaction to software reverb having to "deal with the latency". Using a UA plug in inside Cubase or ProTools or Logic's mixer will increase that mixer's latency by many, many milliseconds. I wasn't reacting to your liking Console better than Maestro. Can’t get around the DAW buffer regardless of individual plugin latency. And even at 128 it still sounds like a flanger compared to TDM/HDX/UA Console/Apogee Control/etc. FOR THE REVERB. I've never suggested anyone monitor their inputs via a software mixer. And I never would.
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Post by ragan on Jun 10, 2018 22:04:05 GMT -6
Can’t get around the DAW buffer regardless of individual plugin latency. And even at 128 it still sounds like a flanger compared to TDM/HDX/UA Console/Apogee Control/etc. FOR THE REVERB. I've never suggested anyone monitor their inputs via a software mixer. And I never would. WELL OK, SOMETIMES YOUR VARIOUS PROCLAMATIONS DEMAND SOME PARSING.
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Post by Blackdawg on Jun 10, 2018 22:23:37 GMT -6
I guess if they had actual representatives to come to your studio and demonstrate their product and show you the workflow and the easiest way to use it in a real tracking session, I could find some extra money to get into a new system. I'm just real stumped when it comes to workflow vs. sound quality. It's so expensive and once you have been there done that throughout the years of this industry with the upgrades as technology has advanced, you wonder what system is going to provide you with exactly what you want. After getting suckered into the Apollo Silverface BS, I'm very careful now about my next upgrade. It would take a UA rep to come to my place and hook it up, do a session, and then I would decide after that whether their product is worth the $1000 I would give them for their newer BF mkII interface. There is always a compromise, and with our technology, there should be no excuses to put out a solid product that works for you. I'm still on my old 16X Symphony 64 Thunderbridge system, and this workflow is also wonky with the I/O. After hearing that they haven't changed the workflow that much with the newer Apogee converters, maybe I'm looking at the wrong upgrade. I've been looking for a mobile interface for tracking drums in different spaces. An all in one solution with my laptop, or just do the Superior Drummer thing, not sure yet. I heard the Ensemble sounds better than the 16X converters from a good source(Apogee) and it has preamps and enough I/O to do the drums and mobile applications. Then there is RME stepping up their game. Then Steinberg with their new Rupert Neve Designs boxes with the Transformers, but I need at least 16 channels. A lot of innovation and technology, but in the real world beyond manufacturer hype, I want the truth and a product demonstration before I just buy and try and send back. I do also like the workflow of the Apollo, but the quality of sound was unacceptable when it sounded a lot worse than my 16X converters. It made no sense at all to have higher end pieces if you are using an Apollo Silverface interface to me. Check out the Grace m108. Be a great mobile rig/interface. Great converters and mic pres.
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Post by Blackdawg on Jun 10, 2018 22:31:27 GMT -6
Not bad. Still..so pricey for just 8ch. And max is 24ch. Plus the NYQST converter are where the magic is. Understood, but...Consider the cost of a New Computer, with many peripheral options (more than a new Mac) (also customized OEM OS for DAW usage) and a totally amazing 8channel Audio Interface (already inside it, ready to work) I think by that metric, it’s very reasonable deal. Maybe pricy new at $8500 but.... Very true..and Id need a new computer anyways to start my system build. You could add the ADII for more I/O once you hit 24ch too. I do love me some Radar though. Great converters.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jun 11, 2018 5:07:33 GMT -6
Since this is used gear, I was thinking what else can you buy used for either 8 grand US or roughly 10 grand Canadian. As I use Logic, I have looked at exactly this Radar system but do find the cost high. As I already had a very good laptop, I bought a factory refurb symphony mkii 16x16 for $3700 usd with full warranty, twice the converters, plus headphones: less than 50% of the cost of this used radar system, for half the converters and a computer. If you want to go the dedicated integrated route, no doubt, radar is a great option:just depends, where you and your wallet are at
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UA Apollo
Jun 11, 2018 5:54:35 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by Johnkenn on Jun 11, 2018 5:54:35 GMT -6
Maybe it’s just me, but I don’t like reverb with 30 ms predelays
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Post by popmann on Jun 11, 2018 7:52:43 GMT -6
15-25 is a very typical finished product vocal Reverb predelay. Maybe that explains my lack of sensitivity. ...or maybe that unless it's a big ballad, I rarely monitor my own vocal with reverb. If you’re getting that number from the Cubase “studio setup” area, that’s only the driver latency—not the result of the compensation engine. I also want to point out, for the record, that an Apollo system is capable of workflows that previously you WOULD need a TDM system for....I just nearly never see them being used that way. I see them used for a vocal cue reverb, which (IMO) you DON'T need hardware for....I'm not, I will further clarify--saying that if you HAVE an Apollo system you shouldn't USE that feature....it's just odd that THAT is the reason held up over and over to buy such a system, which is both expensive and DOES increase the RTL of the system substantially. If you were taking 2 8pre units and tracking a band live through Neve and API Unison channels and selectively tape sims--rack of SPL transient Designers and IBP units to dial in "the kit sound"....setting up a single room mic and feeding it through the Oceanway room simulator...using the Ampeg unison amp model for the bass DI...while, sure also giving the scratch vocalist a EMT Plate....I would say "rock on"--that's what the system is capable of that natives aren't.
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Post by brenta on Jun 11, 2018 8:52:08 GMT -6
I also want to point out, for the record, that an Apollo system is capable of workflows that previously you WOULD need a TDM system for....I just nearly never see them being used that way. This why I use it and I'm surprised more engineers haven't caught on. It's a great (and less expensive) alternative to PTHD. I don't track through plugins much, usually just the UAD preamp emulations, sometimes reverbs or a compressor for tone. The big advantage for me is the near zero latency of direct monitoring. Even the lowest buffer setting can have too much latency for some musicians. Then there's overdubs. I can have a 50+ track session loaded with plugins and track overdubs with near zero latency. With native systems I would have to disable a ton of plugs to do that.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 11, 2018 10:09:56 GMT -6
I also want to point out, for the record, that an Apollo system is capable of workflows that previously you WOULD need a TDM system for....I just nearly never see them being used that way. This why I use it and I'm surprised more engineers haven't caught on. It's a great (and less expensive) alternative to PTHD. I don't track through plugins much, usually just the UAD preamp emulations, sometimes reverbs or a compressor for tone. The big advantage for me is the near zero latency of direct monitoring. Even the lowest buffer setting can have too much latency for some musicians. Then there's overdubs. I can have a 50+ track session loaded with plugins and track overdubs with near zero latency. With native systems I would have to disable a ton of plugs to do that. This is exactly what I’m talking about.
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UA Apollo
Jun 11, 2018 10:15:59 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by guitfiddler on Jun 11, 2018 10:15:59 GMT -6
This why I use it and I'm surprised more engineers haven't caught on. It's a great (and less expensive) alternative to PTHD. I don't track through plugins much, usually just the UAD preamp emulations, sometimes reverbs or a compressor for tone. The big advantage for me is the near zero latency of direct monitoring. Even the lowest buffer setting can have too much latency for some musicians. Then there's overdubs. I can have a 50+ track session loaded with plugins and track overdubs with near zero latency. With native systems I would have to disable a ton of plugs to do that. This is exactly what I’m talking about. So, do you still need to use a Dbox with the new Apollo Blackface mk2 units for them to sound better? And do the Apollo BF mk2 sound solid with less grainy phasey crappy sound? I hated!!! Hated the sound of the SF...it was terrible sounding!!!! I’m not a hater!!! I’m still trying to give UA the benefit of the doubt...Still thinking maybe something was wrong with it!! The reason I ask is I need a mobile unit for Drums/PA system for live and since I already have most of the UA plugs sitting dormant on my computer...ugh
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Post by drsax on Jun 11, 2018 10:37:57 GMT -6
I also want to point out, for the record, that an Apollo system is capable of workflows that previously you WOULD need a TDM system for....I just nearly never see them being used that way. This why I use it and I'm surprised more engineers haven't caught on. It's a great (and less expensive) alternative to PTHD. I don't track through plugins much, usually just the UAD preamp emulations, sometimes reverbs or a compressor for tone. The big advantage for me is the near zero latency of direct monitoring. Even the lowest buffer setting can have too much latency for some musicians. Then there's overdubs. I can have a 50+ track session loaded with plugins and track overdubs with near zero latency. With native systems I would have to disable a ton of plugs to do that. Yup... this is how I use it.
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Post by mikec on Jun 11, 2018 11:17:44 GMT -6
I would agree with pretty much everything said. I went through every version of the Apollo MKII, 8P, 8, and 16. I liked the workflow and was happy with the conversion/sound but got it in my head I needed the Symphony MKII. When I got it I had been struggling on a mix that I was working on with the Apollo 16 MKII. After getting the Symphony MKII all hooked up the mix just seemed to come together very quickly. This might have been a fluke but it made be a believer in the improved sound and detail, to my ears, of the Symphony MKII. I felt like I had gotten back that little bit that I felt like I lost when I went from the Metric Halo ULN8 to the Apollo. Luckily I don't have any issues tracking vocals with reverb since I track through my 2BUS+ and have a Bricasti patched in on an aux track pretty much permanently on two channels of my interface. I've since added the 2x6 SE card to my 16x16 and have done away with any external monitoring and only monitor through the 2x6SE module using the Apogee remote as my monitor controller.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jun 11, 2018 11:27:20 GMT -6
"I've since added the 2x6 SE card to my 16x16 and have done away with any external monitoring and only monitor through the 2x6SE module using the Apogee remote as my monitor controller."
That good eh ?
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Post by mikec on Jun 11, 2018 11:32:53 GMT -6
"I've since added the 2x6 SE card to my 16x16 and have done away with any external monitoring and only monitor through the 2x6SE module using the Apogee remote as my monitor controller." That good eh ? I think so. In addition to allowing me to sell my monitor controller it gave me the Digital I/O I was lacking with my 16x16, so no buyers remorse at all.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jun 11, 2018 11:46:44 GMT -6
Yes, the one downside of the 16x16.
With the mastering any issues with the symphony mkii meters or just use your ears ?
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Post by mikec on Jun 11, 2018 12:00:52 GMT -6
Yes, the one downside of the 16x16. With the mastering any issues with the symphony mkii meters or just use your ears ? I've not had any issues. I also use Pro Tools so I set up any plugins or hardware on an aux track that feeds my print track to I can use input monitoring for metering.
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Post by swurveman on Jun 11, 2018 12:18:35 GMT -6
I also want to point out, for the record, that an Apollo system is capable of workflows that previously you WOULD need a TDM system for....I just nearly never see them being used that way. This why I use it and I'm surprised more engineers haven't caught on. It's a great (and less expensive) alternative to PTHD. I don't track through plugins much, usually just the UAD preamp emulations, sometimes reverbs or a compressor for tone. The big advantage for me is the near zero latency of direct monitoring. Even the lowest buffer setting can have too much latency for some musicians. Then there's overdubs. I can have a 50+ track session loaded with plugins and track overdubs with near zero latency. With native systems I would have to disable a ton of plugs to do that. It depends upon the system. I have two RME AES-32 PCIe cards and have no latency during tracking and don't have to disable any plugins when doing overdubs.
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UA Apollo
Jun 11, 2018 13:21:57 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by guitfiddler on Jun 11, 2018 13:21:57 GMT -6
Yes...getting close to pulling the trigger on converters and been revisiting UA, but just don’t know if I can do it...Black Lion Modded? Maybe?
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Post by drsax on Jun 11, 2018 15:35:56 GMT -6
Yes...getting close to pulling the trigger on converters and been revisiting UA, but just don’t know if I can do it...Black Lion Modded? Maybe? I bought a single Apollo 8 mkii first and used it a while. Dug it a lot and so expanded the whole system.
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UA Apollo
Jun 11, 2018 16:42:49 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by kcatthedog on Jun 11, 2018 16:42:49 GMT -6
Yes...getting close to pulling the trigger on converters and been revisiting UA, but just don’t know if I can do it...Black Lion Modded? Maybe? The bla mod definitely makes apollo more linear and detailed, with the sf it got rid of that lower mid bass bloom. The decoupling improves the s/n ratio of the converters. You will increase the cost of the apollo by roughly 1/3rd and won’t See that money back if you decide to sell later. Since you don’t need the plug in registration deal, maybe look for a used 8p quad. I saw 2 recently, would be very nice for from tracking with unison, but you only have 1/2 a sharc chip per converter while tracking. You are supposed to be able to just run 8 73’s for tracking so you could print the neve sound and go from there ?
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Post by guitfiddler on Jun 11, 2018 16:48:05 GMT -6
Yes...getting close to pulling the trigger on converters and been revisiting UA, but just don’t know if I can do it...Black Lion Modded? Maybe? The bla mod definitely makes apollo more linear and detailed, with the sf it got rid of that lower mid bass bloom. The decoupling improves the s/n ratio of the converters. You will increase the cost of the apollo by roughly 1/3rd and won’t See that money back if you decide to sell later. Since you don’t need the plug in registration deal, maybe look for a used 8p quad. I saw 2 recently, would be very nice for from tracking with unison, but you only have 1/2 a sharc chip per converter while tracking. You are supposed to be able to just run 8 73’s for tracking so you could print the neve sound and go from there ? Thanks Kcat, yeah, I have mulled over every friggin option to the point of just getting pissed off and not spending money. If I'm spending thousands on converters then I'm going all out! Or I'm just settling with what I hope not to be disappointment. My eyes were opened when I went to the Dangerous Convert A/D+, but I need more channels, and 8 channels of D/A for $3500 is steep! It will be my master clock once I figure it out! I am seriously thinking about just waiting at this point for the newer chips to come out, or just settle with the BF Apollo, cheapest option and I can use my UAD plugs that have been sitting dormant. I have researched all options including Radar. I am in the process of designing a new space, and once I get there this is going to be it. Maybe I will wait it out a little while longer. Anyone know when the next generation technology is hitting the market? It's amazing when a manufacturer can design a dedicated unit specifically designed to do that one thing and do it well! It makes a huge difference!
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Post by guitfiddler on Jun 11, 2018 16:54:59 GMT -6
Yes...getting close to pulling the trigger on converters and been revisiting UA, but just don’t know if I can do it...Black Lion Modded? Maybe? I bought a single Apollo 8 mkii first and used it a while. Dig it a lot and so expanded the whole system. I'm still mulling over the Apollo mk2 vs Apollo 8P vs. the 16 mk2
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Post by guitfiddler on Jun 11, 2018 16:56:27 GMT -6
Then there is live digital boards that are giving you all the dedicated features you need. I am finding that in my musical travels, I'm doing more and more location stuff and bringing it back to my place to mix. Cheaper than an 8 space 500 rack with an Apollo.
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