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Post by Quint on Jun 23, 2022 12:40:00 GMT -6
I got the LYD 48 yesterday (in white). I didn't have time to do a proper burn in as suggested by Dynaudio. I just wanted to hear them. Initial thought: It's a bit hard to believe these came from the same company that made the Air 6 monitors. I was expecting them to be a bit different but I was kind of shocked by how different they are. The biggest change is the mids. The LYD 48 has all the mids (and then some) that I felt were a little light in the Air 6. The lows were about the same, possibly a little more low end. The high end felt a little veiled on the LYD 48 in comparison. I think it's because the mids are so much more present. A rough guess would be that frequencies between about 200hz-1khz are more present in the LYD 8. I played a lot of reference tracks on both and switched back and forth. Most references sounded good on the Air 6. At least half the references sounded kind of bad on the LYD 48. I think problems in the mid-range are much more apparent on the LYD. The Air 6 are more pleasant to listen to and they are better for hearing the tail of a reverb. The LYD 48 masks that detail a little due to the mids. It's interesting how some of my references sound "honkey" on the LYD 48 but fine on the Air 6. I'm not sure which is more accurate but i think the LYD will help make a few mid-range mix decisions easier. That's just a first reaction without having them properly setup on stands. My stands were made for the Air 6 so the LYD 46 has to be raised 5 inches to match, due to the horizontal positioning. I'll be burning these in over the weekend. I do think they will work out well. The detail in the mids showed me some real problems on current mixes already. I wonder how much different they will sound once I burn them in? Anyone notice a real difference or is that sort of "snake-oil"? Well come to the world of 3 ways with a Dome mid. A quick look at the Air 6 looks like it uses a variant of Dyns Esotec tweeter, a very very special tweet that most agree works better in a 3 way where as the LYD48 uses a more standard Dyn. Over time the LYD should open up but it’s not going to sound like the Esotec, however it mesh better with the standard Dyn mid. While not my favorite affordable mid dome the Tange Band copy can be found in some $15000 speakers so yeah no suprise you find it an improvement. As for discovering flaws in reference material, a friend was over the other day and wanted to hear the Questeds, well his taste was 90’s radio hits, stuff that didn’t sound bad in the Car Lifehouse, Vertical Horizon, adult contemporary brain worms, hey I found myself singing along in the car. Well those $75 Skanspeak mid domes showed all the edges almost buzzing distortion on the vocals, the guy said they must be broken, well 12min of listening to Rumors and Abbey Road had the guy thinking he didn’t want a good pair of speakers, he prefer to see the emporer as wearing robes than naked. Nice review keep us updated. Old thread. I know. However, I've got some debt paid down and I was looking at finally pulling the trigger on some Lyd 48s or possibly even something else more expensive, if I can swing it, like the Core 47, Core 59, or the KH310. Anyway, your comment about a dome mid on the Lyd 48 piqued my interest. Is this correct? I'm no expert on this stuff, but the mid on the Lyd 48 looks like a cone to me. I'm just wondering because the Neumann KH310 has a dome mid, I believe, and that gets rave reviews. I know that I certainly like soft dome tweeters, so the subject of a dome mid interests me, in general.
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Post by the other mark williams on Jun 23, 2022 14:48:29 GMT -6
Well come to the world of 3 ways with a Dome mid. A quick look at the Air 6 looks like it uses a variant of Dyns Esotec tweeter, a very very special tweet that most agree works better in a 3 way where as the LYD48 uses a more standard Dyn. Over time the LYD should open up but it’s not going to sound like the Esotec, however it mesh better with the standard Dyn mid. While not my favorite affordable mid dome the Tange Band copy can be found in some $15000 speakers so yeah no suprise you find it an improvement. As for discovering flaws in reference material, a friend was over the other day and wanted to hear the Questeds, well his taste was 90’s radio hits, stuff that didn’t sound bad in the Car Lifehouse, Vertical Horizon, adult contemporary brain worms, hey I found myself singing along in the car. Well those $75 Skanspeak mid domes showed all the edges almost buzzing distortion on the vocals, the guy said they must be broken, well 12min of listening to Rumors and Abbey Road had the guy thinking he didn’t want a good pair of speakers, he prefer to see the emporer as wearing robes than naked. Nice review keep us updated. Old thread. I know. However, I've got some debt paid down and I was looking at finally pulling the trigger on some Lyd 48s or possibly even something else more expensive, if I can swing it, like the Core 47, Core 59, or the KH310. Anyway, your comment about a dome mid on the Lyd 48 piqued my interest. Is this correct? I'm no expert on this stuff, but the mid on the Lyd 48 looks like a cone to me. I'm just wondering because the Neumann KH310 has a dome mid, I believe, and that gets rave reviews. I know that I certainly like soft dome tweeters, so the subject of a dome mid interests me, in general. Whew - boy, do I love my KH310s. They sound so natural to me. I've still never heard the LYD48s, but I'm sure I would like them, too. But seriously, wow on these KH310s.
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Post by Quint on Jun 23, 2022 15:19:20 GMT -6
Old thread. I know. However, I've got some debt paid down and I was looking at finally pulling the trigger on some Lyd 48s or possibly even something else more expensive, if I can swing it, like the Core 47, Core 59, or the KH310. Anyway, your comment about a dome mid on the Lyd 48 piqued my interest. Is this correct? I'm no expert on this stuff, but the mid on the Lyd 48 looks like a cone to me. I'm just wondering because the Neumann KH310 has a dome mid, I believe, and that gets rave reviews. I know that I certainly like soft dome tweeters, so the subject of a dome mid interests me, in general. Whew - boy, do I love my KH310s. They sound so natural to me. I've still never heard the LYD48s, but I'm sure I would like them, too. But seriously, wow on these KH310s. The thing that worries me about the KH310 is the wave guide. I know the wave guide is seen as a benefit to a lot of people, due to the wave guide's ability to vertically and horizontally narrow the dispersion field in order to reduce first reflection issues in a small or low ceiling room. However, I've have a large room (24x30) with pretty good treatment, and I would actually be worried that I would end up with a narrower sweet spot than I'd prefer, if I'm not being forced to make a tradeoff via the wave guide. But maybe I fundamentally misunderstand the way the wave guide is working on the KH310?
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Post by svart on Jun 23, 2022 15:19:27 GMT -6
Go check out my KH310D review in the review section.
I like mine too. I don't see how I could really need anything else at this point. They do what they're supposed to do and they don't get in my way. What else can I ask for?
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Post by svart on Jun 23, 2022 15:22:01 GMT -6
Whew - boy, do I love my KH310s. They sound so natural to me. I've still never heard the LYD48s, but I'm sure I would like them, too. But seriously, wow on these KH310s. The thing that worries me about the KH310 is the wave guide. I know the wave guide is seen as a benefit to a lot of people, due to the wave guide's ability to vertically and horizontally narrow the dispersion field in order to reduce first reflection issues in a small or low ceiling room. However, I've have a large room (24x30) with pretty good treatment, and I would actually be worried that I would end up with a narrower sweet spot than I'd prefer. The waveguide on the tweeter is horizontally wider. Less reflections from above or below. I also think with a treated room, reflections from a distance will be much less of a problem than a narrow sweet spot. I much prefer a wider sweet spot that I can move around in within reason.
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Post by Quint on Jun 23, 2022 15:28:53 GMT -6
The thing that worries me about the KH310 is the wave guide. I know the wave guide is seen as a benefit to a lot of people, due to the wave guide's ability to vertically and horizontally narrow the dispersion field in order to reduce first reflection issues in a small or low ceiling room. However, I've have a large room (24x30) with pretty good treatment, and I would actually be worried that I would end up with a narrower sweet spot than I'd prefer. The waveguide on the tweeter is horizontally wider. Less reflections from above or below. I also think with a treated room, reflections from a distance will be much less of a problem than a narrow sweet spot. I much prefer a wider sweet spot that I can move around in within reason. I get that the wave guide is more narrow vertically than it is horizontally, but doesn't the wave guide still narrow the horizontal field to one degree or another, at least when compared to a monitor with no wave guide? I too prefer, if possible, a wider sweet spot that I can move around in, which is why I was concerned that the Neumann would actually have a narrower sweet spot than I was used to. But it sounds like you're saying that the KH310 has a wider sweet spot than normal? I'm confused. Edit: I went and read your review. I do see that you're saying these have a wide sweet spot. This still confuses me, as I would think any wave guide at all would narrow the field to one degree or another. In any case, it's good to know that a narrow sweet spot doesn't seem to be a concern.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jun 23, 2022 15:39:37 GMT -6
From Neumann site:
“Neumann's Elliptical Mathematically Modeled Dispersion (MMD) waveguide was implemented with the application of mixing at a large-format console in mind. It provides a smoother off-axis response, essentially widening the KH 310's "sweet spot" and allowing you to move across the console without a decrease in audio quality. Coupled with the 4-position bass, low-mid, and treble acoustic controls, it allows the KH 310 to function ideally in a variety of acoustic environments.“
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Post by svart on Jun 23, 2022 15:44:02 GMT -6
The waveguide on the tweeter is horizontally wider. Less reflections from above or below. I also think with a treated room, reflections from a distance will be much less of a problem than a narrow sweet spot. I much prefer a wider sweet spot that I can move around in within reason. I get that the wave guide is more narrow vertically than it is horizontally, but doesn't the wave guide still narrow the horizontal field to one degree or another, at least when compared to a monitor with no wave guide? I too prefer, if possible, a wider sweet spot that I can move around in, which is why I was concerned that the Neumann would actually have a narrower sweet spot than I was used to. But it sounds like you're saying that the KH310 has a wider sweet spot than normal? I'm confused. Edit: I went and read your review. I do see that you're saying these have a wide sweet spot. This still confuses me, as I would think any wave guide at all would narrow the field to one degree or another. In any case, it's good to know that a narrow sweet spot doesn't seem to be a concern. Waveguides widen the dispersion by increasing coupling of the diaphragm with the forward air volume as well as the reduction in baffle diffraction. This smooths the frequency response to reduce beaming in addition. I guess an analogy is blowing through a straw. The air front is very focused, with a gentle dispersion vs. blowing through a funnel backwards which immediately disperses the air front.
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Post by Quint on Jun 23, 2022 22:45:59 GMT -6
I get that the wave guide is more narrow vertically than it is horizontally, but doesn't the wave guide still narrow the horizontal field to one degree or another, at least when compared to a monitor with no wave guide? I too prefer, if possible, a wider sweet spot that I can move around in, which is why I was concerned that the Neumann would actually have a narrower sweet spot than I was used to. But it sounds like you're saying that the KH310 has a wider sweet spot than normal? I'm confused. Edit: I went and read your review. I do see that you're saying these have a wide sweet spot. This still confuses me, as I would think any wave guide at all would narrow the field to one degree or another. In any case, it's good to know that a narrow sweet spot doesn't seem to be a concern. Waveguides widen the dispersion by increasing coupling of the diaphragm with the forward air volume as well as the reduction in baffle diffraction. This smooths the frequency response to reduce beaming in addition. I guess an analogy is blowing through a straw. The air front is very focused, with a gentle dispersion vs. blowing through a funnel backwards which immediately disperses the air front. Not doubting you on how they work. I just assumed that the geometry of an inset tweeter (into the waveguide) meant that the angles narrowed accordingly, but apparently not. Good to know. I know Ericn likes the dome mids, and I trust his opinions. The 310 is still on my list. The rest of the list is comprised of Dynaudio (Lyd 48, Core 47, Core 59), because I just like Dyns, but I'm still thinking about the 310s.
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Post by Quint on Jul 3, 2022 21:33:11 GMT -6
Well come to the world of 3 ways with a Dome mid. A quick look at the Air 6 looks like it uses a variant of Dyns Esotec tweeter, a very very special tweet that most agree works better in a 3 way where as the LYD48 uses a more standard Dyn. Over time the LYD should open up but it’s not going to sound like the Esotec, however it mesh better with the standard Dyn mid. While not my favorite affordable mid dome the Tange Band copy can be found in some $15000 speakers so yeah no suprise you find it an improvement. As for discovering flaws in reference material, a friend was over the other day and wanted to hear the Questeds, well his taste was 90’s radio hits, stuff that didn’t sound bad in the Car Lifehouse, Vertical Horizon, adult contemporary brain worms, hey I found myself singing along in the car. Well those $75 Skanspeak mid domes showed all the edges almost buzzing distortion on the vocals, the guy said they must be broken, well 12min of listening to Rumors and Abbey Road had the guy thinking he didn’t want a good pair of speakers, he prefer to see the emporer as wearing robes than naked. Nice review keep us updated. Old thread. I know. However, I've got some debt paid down and I was looking at finally pulling the trigger on some Lyd 48s or possibly even something else more expensive, if I can swing it, like the Core 47, Core 59, or the KH310. Anyway, your comment about a dome mid on the Lyd 48 piqued my interest. Is this correct? I'm no expert on this stuff, but the mid on the Lyd 48 looks like a cone to me. I'm just wondering because the Neumann KH310 has a dome mid, I believe, and that gets rave reviews. I know that I certainly like soft dome tweeters, so the subject of a dome mid interests me, in general. @ ericn I'm just following up on this again. Do you have any thoughts on this?
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Post by RealNoob on Jul 6, 2022 11:10:48 GMT -6
Those who have and love the LYDs, what other speakers have you used?
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Jul 6, 2022 12:51:22 GMT -6
Old thread. I know. However, I've got some debt paid down and I was looking at finally pulling the trigger on some Lyd 48s or possibly even something else more expensive, if I can swing it, like the Core 47, Core 59, or the KH310. Anyway, your comment about a dome mid on the Lyd 48 piqued my interest. Is this correct? I'm no expert on this stuff, but the mid on the Lyd 48 looks like a cone to me. I'm just wondering because the Neumann KH310 has a dome mid, I believe, and that gets rave reviews. I know that I certainly like soft dome tweeters, so the subject of a dome mid interests me, in general. @ ericn I'm just following up on this again. Do you have any thoughts on this? I’m trying to find someone who has the Dyns so I can spend some time with them. Don’t think in terms of wider or narrower dispersion, think more controlled dispersion depending on the particular wave guide. A waveguide is a horn without a throat that’s all. One thing to listen to though is how low is the waveguide functional? It can get a little strange if the driver is crossed over below the where the wave guide is functional. The Neumann / KH seam to be the new favorite of guys doing video post in poor designed rooms. I was talking to a guy who has been putting the K&H in video rooms who loves the fact the KH wave guides give you 2 different dispersion characters depending if they are horizontal or vertical (unlike Amphions). Me if the room is good I prefer a dome without a waveguide, less of that horn like “honk” but the K&H are pretty “honk” free till you put them next to something without a waveguide. But we have to remember the mighty ATC and Volt domes have a very small wave guide that evens out their dispersion at the drivers upper range.
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Post by Quint on Jul 6, 2022 13:57:37 GMT -6
@ ericn I'm just following up on this again. Do you have any thoughts on this? I’m trying to find someone who has the Dyns so I can spend some time with them. Don’t think in terms of wider or narrower dispersion, think more controlled dispersion depending on the particular wave guide. A waveguide is a horn without a throat that’s all. One thing to listen to though is how low is the waveguide functional? It can get a little strange if the driver is crossed over below the where the wave guide is functional. The Neumann / KH seam to be the new favorite of guys doing video post in poor designed rooms. I was talking to a guy who has been putting the K&H in video rooms who loves the fact the KH wave guides give you 2 different dispersion characters depending if they are horizontal or vertical (unlike Amphions). Me if the room is good I prefer a dome without a waveguide, less of that horn like “honk” but the K&H are pretty “honk” free till you put them next to something without a waveguide. But we have to remember the mighty ATC and Volt domes have a very small wave guide that evens out their dispersion at the drivers upper range. I've most likely narrowed it down to the Lyd 48 or the kh310. I thought about the Core 47s for a while, but people don't seem to like them that much. I know Audio Science Review beat them up pretty heavily. As for the Core 59s, those are maybe just too much speaker, though I am in a fairly large room. I'm in a 24'x30' room with splayed walls on both sides of the mix position to help create a RFZ. It also has a two foot thick by 8' wide and 8' tall bass trap immediately behind my monitors at the mix position. There's also 12" of treatment on the ceiling above the mix position. So it's fairly well treated, for whatever that's worth. Anyway, just to get some clarification, the Lyd 48s do NOT have a dome mid, do they? You had previously mentioned that they did, but I thought that was maybe said in error? As for the kh310s, I didn't think you could set them up any way other than horizontally? I mean, you "can" do whatever you want. I just mean that they are designed to be placed horizontally and that is it, correct? I definitely have figured out over the years that I like soft dome tweeters. So I thought I might similarly end up liking dome mids if I ever got the chance to use them, regardless of whether or not they also had a wave guide. The kh310 only has a waveguide on the tweeter though, correct? Unless the mid dome has a waveguide too, and that small recessed area around the mid dome is also a waveguide? I guess I'm just trying to gather as much info as I can to narrow this down. Like I said, at this point I've probably narrowed it down to the Lyd 48 and the kh310, but I'm also open to ideas.
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Post by svart on Jul 6, 2022 14:26:53 GMT -6
I’m trying to find someone who has the Dyns so I can spend some time with them. Don’t think in terms of wider or narrower dispersion, think more controlled dispersion depending on the particular wave guide. A waveguide is a horn without a throat that’s all. One thing to listen to though is how low is the waveguide functional? It can get a little strange if the driver is crossed over below the where the wave guide is functional. The Neumann / KH seam to be the new favorite of guys doing video post in poor designed rooms. I was talking to a guy who has been putting the K&H in video rooms who loves the fact the KH wave guides give you 2 different dispersion characters depending if they are horizontal or vertical (unlike Amphions). Me if the room is good I prefer a dome without a waveguide, less of that horn like “honk” but the K&H are pretty “honk” free till you put them next to something without a waveguide. But we have to remember the mighty ATC and Volt domes have a very small wave guide that evens out their dispersion at the drivers upper range. I've most likely narrowed it down to the Lyd 48 or the kh310. I thought about the Core 47s for a while, but people don't seem to like them that much. I know Audio Science Review beat them up pretty heavily. As for the Core 59s, those are maybe just too much speaker, though I am in a fairly large room. I'm in a 24'x30' room with splayed walls on both sides of the mix position to help create a RFZ. It also has a two foot thick by 8' wide and 8' tall bass trap immediately behind my monitors at the mix position. There's also 12" of treatment on the ceiling above the mix position. So it's fairly well treated, for whatever that's worth. Anyway, just to get some clarification, the Lyd 48s do NOT have a dome mid, do they? You had previously mentioned that they did, but I thought that was maybe said in error? As for the kh310s, I didn't think you could set them up any way other than horizontally? I mean, you "can" do whatever you want. I just mean that they are designed to be placed horizontally and that is it, correct? I definitely have figured out over the years that I like soft dome tweeters. So I thought I might similarly end up liking dome mids if I ever got the chance to use them, regardless of whether or not they also had a wave guide. The kh310 only has a waveguide on the tweeter though, correct? Unless the mid dome has one and it's just really small and I can't see it? I guess I'm just trying to gather as much info as I can to narrow this down. Like I said, at this point I've probably narrowed it down to the Lyd 48 and the kh310, but I'm also open to ideas. If you look at the KH310, the midrange dome is indeed recessed slightly, and the bezel has a slight waveguide. The recess of the tweeter and to a lesser degree, the midrange, serve two purposes. Primary is to time-align the voicecoils and secondary is to allow for some depth of waveguide. (or perhaps the designers prioritized them vice-versa..) The need for a waveguide is much less for midrange frequencies as they don't beam as much. Add in that the midrange is a large dome, and dispersion is naturally much wider than a smaller dome and higher frequencies. I'm sure Neumann (or K+H) engineers modeled dispersion and devised the waveguide attributes to fit the blending of the patterns in the forward space. The KH310 are definitely designed to lay down horizontally. I suppose you can set them on end but the dispersion patterns of the tweeter will now be vertically aligned and not-optimal. The LYD48 has a conical midrange and does not look to have physically time-aligned the drivers at all. they could certainly do it electronically. Digital time-alignment requires DSP and analog time-alignment requires higher-order filters which a lot of purists frown upon. I personally have never really heard the difference, but my preference would be for waveguides and physically aligned drivers for simplicity's sake.
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Post by Quint on Jul 6, 2022 14:35:24 GMT -6
I've most likely narrowed it down to the Lyd 48 or the kh310. I thought about the Core 47s for a while, but people don't seem to like them that much. I know Audio Science Review beat them up pretty heavily. As for the Core 59s, those are maybe just too much speaker, though I am in a fairly large room. I'm in a 24'x30' room with splayed walls on both sides of the mix position to help create a RFZ. It also has a two foot thick by 8' wide and 8' tall bass trap immediately behind my monitors at the mix position. There's also 12" of treatment on the ceiling above the mix position. So it's fairly well treated, for whatever that's worth. Anyway, just to get some clarification, the Lyd 48s do NOT have a dome mid, do they? You had previously mentioned that they did, but I thought that was maybe said in error? As for the kh310s, I didn't think you could set them up any way other than horizontally? I mean, you "can" do whatever you want. I just mean that they are designed to be placed horizontally and that is it, correct? I definitely have figured out over the years that I like soft dome tweeters. So I thought I might similarly end up liking dome mids if I ever got the chance to use them, regardless of whether or not they also had a wave guide. The kh310 only has a waveguide on the tweeter though, correct? Unless the mid dome has one and it's just really small and I can't see it? I guess I'm just trying to gather as much info as I can to narrow this down. Like I said, at this point I've probably narrowed it down to the Lyd 48 and the kh310, but I'm also open to ideas. If you look at the KH310, the midrange dome is indeed recessed slightly, and the bezel has a slight waveguide. The recess of the tweeter and to a lesser degree, the midrange, serve two purposes. Primary is to time-align the voicecoils and secondary is to allow for some depth of waveguide. (or perhaps the designers prioritized them vice-versa..) The need for a waveguide is much less for midrange frequencies as they don't beam as much. Add in that the midrange is a large dome, and dispersion is naturally much wider than a smaller dome and higher frequencies. I'm sure Neumann (or K+H) engineers modeled dispersion and devised the waveguide attributes to fit the blending of the patterns in the forward space. The KH310 are definitely designed to lay down horizontally. I suppose you can set them on end but the dispersion patterns of the tweeter will now be vertically aligned and not-optimal. The LYD48 has a conical midrange and does not look to have physically time-aligned the drivers at all. they could certainly do it electronically. Digital time-alignment requires DSP and analog time-alignment requires higher-order filters which a lot of purists frown upon. I personally have never really heard the difference, but my preference would be for waveguides and physically aligned drivers for simplicity's sake. Got it. As I looked more at the 310, I was kind of wondering if the slight recess on the mid dome was in fact a wave guide. I'm leaning slightly more towards the 310 at this point, over the Lyd 48, but I'm still kind of wondering about total available volume between these two options. To be more specific, I guess I mean total volume available before things begin to noticeably distort. I know the Lyd does have an option to engage a switch which lowers the overall volume to preserve undistorted bass volume, relative to overall volume. But that, of course, lowers the total volume available, and I do have a somewhat large room (24x30). The 310 has more wattage than the Lyd, not that that is an automatic indicator of it also being louder. Class D amps are also supposed to be more efficient than AB, so that also makes it difficult to try to make a comparison, as the Lyd I'd class D and the 310 is Class AB.
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Post by svart on Jul 6, 2022 15:02:02 GMT -6
If you look at the KH310, the midrange dome is indeed recessed slightly, and the bezel has a slight waveguide. The recess of the tweeter and to a lesser degree, the midrange, serve two purposes. Primary is to time-align the voicecoils and secondary is to allow for some depth of waveguide. (or perhaps the designers prioritized them vice-versa..) The need for a waveguide is much less for midrange frequencies as they don't beam as much. Add in that the midrange is a large dome, and dispersion is naturally much wider than a smaller dome and higher frequencies. I'm sure Neumann (or K+H) engineers modeled dispersion and devised the waveguide attributes to fit the blending of the patterns in the forward space. The KH310 are definitely designed to lay down horizontally. I suppose you can set them on end but the dispersion patterns of the tweeter will now be vertically aligned and not-optimal. The LYD48 has a conical midrange and does not look to have physically time-aligned the drivers at all. they could certainly do it electronically. Digital time-alignment requires DSP and analog time-alignment requires higher-order filters which a lot of purists frown upon. I personally have never really heard the difference, but my preference would be for waveguides and physically aligned drivers for simplicity's sake. Got it. As I looked more at the 310, I was kind of wondering if the slight recess on the mid dome was in fact a wave guide. I'm leaning slightly more towards the 310 at this point, over the Lyd 48, but I'm still kind of wondering about total available volume between these two options. To be more specific, I guess I mean total volume available before things begin to noticeably distort. I know the Lyd does have an option to engage a switch which lowers the overall volume to preserve undistorted bass volume, relative to overall volume. But that, of course, lowers the total volume available, and I do have a somewhat large room (24x30). The 310 has more wattage than the Lyd, not that that is an automatic indicator of it also being louder. Class D amps are also supposed to be more efficient than AB, so that also makes it difficult to try to make a comparison, as the Lyd I'd class D and the 310 is Class AB. I've never turned my KH310D's up louder than normal-high listening volume so I can't say if they distort or not at even higher levels.
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Jul 6, 2022 15:52:51 GMT -6
If you look at the KH310, the midrange dome is indeed recessed slightly, and the bezel has a slight waveguide. The recess of the tweeter and to a lesser degree, the midrange, serve two purposes. Primary is to time-align the voicecoils and secondary is to allow for some depth of waveguide. (or perhaps the designers prioritized them vice-versa..) The need for a waveguide is much less for midrange frequencies as they don't beam as much. Add in that the midrange is a large dome, and dispersion is naturally much wider than a smaller dome and higher frequencies. I'm sure Neumann (or K+H) engineers modeled dispersion and devised the waveguide attributes to fit the blending of the patterns in the forward space. The KH310 are definitely designed to lay down horizontally. I suppose you can set them on end but the dispersion patterns of the tweeter will now be vertically aligned and not-optimal. The LYD48 has a conical midrange and does not look to have physically time-aligned the drivers at all. they could certainly do it electronically. Digital time-alignment requires DSP and analog time-alignment requires higher-order filters which a lot of purists frown upon. I personally have never really heard the difference, but my preference would be for waveguides and physically aligned drivers for simplicity's sake. Got it. As I looked more at the 310, I was kind of wondering if the slight recess on the mid dome was in fact a wave guide. I'm leaning slightly more towards the 310 at this point, over the Lyd 48, but I'm still kind of wondering about total available volume between these two options. To be more specific, I guess I mean total volume available before things begin to noticeably distort. I know the Lyd does have an option to engage a switch which lowers the overall volume to preserve undistorted bass volume, relative to overall volume. But that, of course, lowers the total volume available, and I do have a somewhat large room (24x30). The 310 has more wattage than the Lyd, not that that is an automatic indicator of it also being louder. Class D amps are also supposed to be more efficient than AB, so that also makes it difficult to try to make a comparison, as the Lyd I'd class D and the 310 is Class AB. [br Yeah I was mistaken that the LyDs do in fact use a cone mid there is a slight wave guide. 310s can be used either way and I’m going to bet the alignment is via both position and DSP. I really would like to spend some time with the Dyns but nobody here seams to have a pair and I don’t know anyone at Dynaudio these days, the way I’m hearing it from those who know both is really this Great room Dynaudio, troublesome room KH. As far as DSP vs physical alignment ideal physical, but if your going to have DSP anyway might as well use it for alignment. Plus DSP will let you smooth out the phase response of the driver physical means your aligned at the crossover point only you have to look at the actual phase response. DSP also means you can get a fairly even phase response and steeper crossover slopes ( playing with phase aligned 48 db per octave slopes in the BSS minidrive with The PAS 12in coax and the radian 12in coax with a 2in compression driver is really fun. Of course the obvious trade off with DSP you have to find DSP with conversion you like, I can’t afford a Lake and a rack full of Mytek but if I could I would. Next week I might just try bring in the PA rack and play with Questeds Omnidrive and 5.4KW of Stewart ( blows my mind still that I can run this rack flat out off of 20 amps 120!)
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Post by Quint on Jul 6, 2022 17:27:44 GMT -6
Got it. As I looked more at the 310, I was kind of wondering if the slight recess on the mid dome was in fact a wave guide. I'm leaning slightly more towards the 310 at this point, over the Lyd 48, but I'm still kind of wondering about total available volume between these two options. To be more specific, I guess I mean total volume available before things begin to noticeably distort. I know the Lyd does have an option to engage a switch which lowers the overall volume to preserve undistorted bass volume, relative to overall volume. But that, of course, lowers the total volume available, and I do have a somewhat large room (24x30). The 310 has more wattage than the Lyd, not that that is an automatic indicator of it also being louder. Class D amps are also supposed to be more efficient than AB, so that also makes it difficult to try to make a comparison, as the Lyd I'd class D and the 310 is Class AB. I've never turned my KH310D's up louder than normal-high listening volume so I can't say if they distort or not at even higher levels. Just curious, how big is your room?
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Post by Quint on Jul 6, 2022 17:33:39 GMT -6
Got it. As I looked more at the 310, I was kind of wondering if the slight recess on the mid dome was in fact a wave guide. I'm leaning slightly more towards the 310 at this point, over the Lyd 48, but I'm still kind of wondering about total available volume between these two options. To be more specific, I guess I mean total volume available before things begin to noticeably distort. I know the Lyd does have an option to engage a switch which lowers the overall volume to preserve undistorted bass volume, relative to overall volume. But that, of course, lowers the total volume available, and I do have a somewhat large room (24x30). The 310 has more wattage than the Lyd, not that that is an automatic indicator of it also being louder. Class D amps are also supposed to be more efficient than AB, so that also makes it difficult to try to make a comparison, as the Lyd I'd class D and the 310 is Class AB. [br Yeah I was mistaken that the LyDs do in fact use a cone mid there is a slight wave guide. 310s can be used either way and I’m going to bet the alignment is via both position and DSP. I really would like to spend some time with the Dyns but nobody here seams to have a pair and I don’t know anyone at Dynaudio these days, the way I’m hearing it from those who know both is really this Great room Dynaudio, troublesome room KH. As far as DSP vs physical alignment ideal physical, but if your going to have DSP anyway might as well use it for alignment. Plus DSP will let you smooth out the phase response of the driver physical means your aligned at the crossover point only you have to look at the actual phase response. DSP also means you can get a fairly even phase response and steeper crossover slopes ( playing with phase aligned 48 db per octave slopes in the BSS minidrive with The PAS 12in coax and the radian 12in coax with a 2in compression driver is really fun. Of course the obvious trade off with DSP you have to find DSP with conversion you like, I can’t afford a Lake and a rack full of Mytek but if I could I would. Next week I might just try bring in the PA rack and play with Questeds Omnidrive and 5.4KW of Stewart ( blows my mind still that I can run this rack flat out off of 20 amps 120!) I don't believe the kh310s have DSP. I don't know that I would say my room is "great" though it is pretty well treated (see the description of my room in my previous post in this thread). So I suppose I still might prefer the 310 for that reason, if the 310 is going to be more forgiving in my not perfect room. What got me going on all of this was your comments about the dome mids. What do you like about dome mids in general, versus something like the mid cone drive in the Lyd? This topic interests me just because I know how much I like dome tweeters, so it intrigued me to know more about dome mids and I why I might end up potentially preferring them to a mid cone drive.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 6, 2022 17:34:43 GMT -6
I've never turned my KH310D's up louder than normal-high listening volume so I can't say if they distort or not at even higher levels. Just curious, how big is your room? Also remember power measurements are useless if you don’t know the efficiency of the drivers!
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Post by Quint on Jul 6, 2022 17:37:00 GMT -6
Just curious, how big is your room? Also remember power measurements are useless if you don’t know the efficiency of the drivers! Agreed. I know that the wattage on the Dyn Core series is substantially higher than that in the Lyds, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the Core series is louder by double or triple or anything like that.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 6, 2022 17:44:43 GMT -6
[br Yeah I was mistaken that the LyDs do in fact use a cone mid there is a slight wave guide. 310s can be used either way and I’m going to bet the alignment is via both position and DSP. I really would like to spend some time with the Dyns but nobody here seams to have a pair and I don’t know anyone at Dynaudio these days, the way I’m hearing it from those who know both is really this Great room Dynaudio, troublesome room KH. As far as DSP vs physical alignment ideal physical, but if your going to have DSP anyway might as well use it for alignment. Plus DSP will let you smooth out the phase response of the driver physical means your aligned at the crossover point only you have to look at the actual phase response. DSP also means you can get a fairly even phase response and steeper crossover slopes ( playing with phase aligned 48 db per octave slopes in the BSS minidrive with The PAS 12in coax and the radian 12in coax with a 2in compression driver is really fun. Of course the obvious trade off with DSP you have to find DSP with conversion you like, I can’t afford a Lake and a rack full of Mytek but if I could I would. Next week I might just try bring in the PA rack and play with Questeds Omnidrive and 5.4KW of Stewart ( blows my mind still that I can run this rack flat out off of 20 amps 120!) I don't believe the kh310s have DSP. I don't know that I would say my room is "great" though it is pretty well treated (see the description of my room in my previous post in this thread). So I suppose I still might prefer the 310 for that reason, if the 310 is going to be more forgiving in my not perfect room. What got me going on all of this was your comments about the dome mids. What do you like about done mids in general, versus something like the mid cone drive in the Lyd? This topic interests me just because I know how much I like dome tweeters, so it intrigued me to know more about dome mids and I why I might end up potentially preferring them to a mid cone drive. At this point I assume any active system that doesn’t state it isn’t using DSP is as a designer I respect in the consumer world said the other day it’s just to easy, why wouldn’t you? And it is you can get a respectable sounding box dive into the DSP and make it better without all the prototype a home theater box I was helping a guy with went through 20 crossover revisions, the guys latest with cheap plate amps we tuned in 4 days and could simply plug a memory stick in and compare any of the revisions. Plus your not looking at parts of the filters interacting with other parts.
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Post by Quint on Jul 6, 2022 17:56:49 GMT -6
I don't believe the kh310s have DSP. I don't know that I would say my room is "great" though it is pretty well treated (see the description of my room in my previous post in this thread). So I suppose I still might prefer the 310 for that reason, if the 310 is going to be more forgiving in my not perfect room. What got me going on all of this was your comments about the dome mids. What do you like about done mids in general, versus something like the mid cone drive in the Lyd? This topic interests me just because I know how much I like dome tweeters, so it intrigued me to know more about dome mids and I why I might end up potentially preferring them to a mid cone drive. At this point I assume any active system that doesn’t state it isn’t using DSP is as a designer I respect in the consumer world said the other day it’s just to easy, why wouldn’t you? And it is you can get a respectable sounding box dive into the DSP and make it better without all the prototype a home theater box I was helping a guy with went through 20 crossover revisions, the guys latest with cheap plate amps we tuned in 4 days and could simply plug a memory stick in and compare any of the revisions. Plus your not looking at parts of the filters interacting with other parts. I hear you on the DSP. What about the rest of my post? Dome mids? I value your opinion.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 6, 2022 22:04:13 GMT -6
At this point I assume any active system that doesn’t state it isn’t using DSP is as a designer I respect in the consumer world said the other day it’s just to easy, why wouldn’t you? And it is you can get a respectable sounding box dive into the DSP and make it better without all the prototype a home theater box I was helping a guy with went through 20 crossover revisions, the guys latest with cheap plate amps we tuned in 4 days and could simply plug a memory stick in and compare any of the revisions. Plus your not looking at parts of the filters interacting with other parts. I hear you on the DSP. What about the rest of my post? Dome mids? I value your opinion. I am hesitant to say Dome or cone being better, there are domes I like and for the $ that Dynaudio copy KH uses is a great driver, it’s not a ATC or Volt but that thing is one of the most consistent sample to sample and you will find it in some very expensive speakers, for example the $12K induction dynamics that I literally go hug once a month because I dearly miss their shop manager and my friend Brian. ( Named my new live sub Woofers after his dog Bronco). Domes are a bit trickier to work with the response is useally shaped like a bump where a cone is more often a flatter plateau, but I in general prefer the tonal quality of a dome. Most domes are lighter and seam faster. In general my preference would be for either an a electrostatic , or line source ribbon or Planer, but neither is practical in a studio monitor physically and present a difficult load. OK the Magnepans are a purely resistive load but like the electrostatics inefficient as hell. Speaking in very general terms domes are pretty efficient, most of the better cone mids require 2 to approach the efficiency of a dome. This is where it gets tricky because if you need 2 per cabinet you ideally need 4 with the same response. I don’t really know the Mid Dynaudio is using but Danny (shadow) seams impressed and based on our conversations I have a pretty good idea of his preferences and would endorse a good listen. Now this is where the idea of making a generalization about a drive by type gets you in trouble, in general I would say compression drivers are a major compromise, but then there are the TAD and even the Radian Beryllium diaphragm drivers you can’t have a conversation about the best HF drivers without the TADs ( OK JK maybe the fact that I own 2 very different but still both in the conversation of Best HF drivers out there in house). If those Dynaudios use a variant of the ESOTAR they belong in that conversation. I hope that helps. I will add I personally prefer class A and AB over class D, so the KH have that, but again being the total hypocrite I have 5.4 KW of class H with switching power supplies sitting in the same house as my favorite Class A amp, so call me a living contradiction.
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Post by the other mark williams on Jul 6, 2022 23:58:10 GMT -6
Quint: I really like domes, too, and I love the mid dome on the 310s. But just as big of a deal to me is that the 310 is the first sealed cabinet I’ve owned, and it turns out I really, really like not having a port. I still think you should try to listen to both the LYD48s and the KH310s in your space if you can swing it. I suspect that would make your decision a lot easier, whether one way or the other.
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