ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,967
|
Post by ericn on May 27, 2016 16:14:19 GMT -6
Does anyone think a ferrite bead on a power cable would help with the noise floor in audio equipment? I notice Seventh Circle Audio shipped me an IEC power cable with a ferrite bead. I think it's the only one I have like that. When Tape Op reviewed the SCA A12 preamp, and compared it to the API 512/312, they said something like, "the main thing we liked about it was...less noise." If you take a look at the SCA schematics the designer has a lot of complex circuitry designed to lower the noise floor. So clearly that is a design goal. I just wonder how much the ferrite bead might help in that area. Try it they're cheap if it works it works!
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on May 27, 2016 16:16:07 GMT -6
Rowmat said, "Whether or not the power cable is made from Kryptonite or some other kind of unobtanium is immaterial. It is simply supplying AC mains at 50 or 60hz to the power supply which is completely altered by the rectifier and filter capacitors in the supply. If you pay more than $10 for a power cord the only people who are benefiting are those taking your money.
I had to laugh out oud, but not at you, at myself. I felt the same way twenty years ago, nothing in the world could convince me a power cord could make any difference. Then I had the chance to try some, and a few more, and a few more, and damn if they didn't improve the sound, some little or none, and some quite a bit. It was simply undeniable. I'm not so stubborn as to deny what I'm hearing because I don't believe it could be, or know it can't be, (not saying anyone here is doing that).
It is interesting to discuss why, but frankly, it doesn't matter in the least to me.
You can tell me all day long why it can't be, then try a half dozen power cords between $150 and $2,000, and see what you hear, just don't think about it ;-) and then get back to me.
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on May 27, 2016 16:26:37 GMT -6
OK, some of you gents really know a lot about the subject and are engineers, designers, or technicians and specialists. Here's an article answering some typical questions and addressing these issues. Do you think this guy is wrong?
Why Power Cables Make a Difference
Every audiophile who has experimented with better power cables has heard the performance advantage they offer. Indeed, the amount of improvement can be astounding, often transforming a system from good to amazing. As audiophiles, we trust our ears but it’s hard to understand how replacing just one short link in a long chain of the power delivery system can have such a dramatic impact. The following article is intended to answer those questions.
Shunyata Research has become a dominant force in the power delivery field. Owner and designer, Caelin Gabriel is clearly one of the luminaries in the industry. His products have, in many ways, changed the way people think about power cables and raised the bar of performance. Shunyata cables have established themselves among audiophiles and industry professionals as state of the art. The list of manufacturers and professionals that use Shunyata cables is impressive, including the likes of Sony Music New York, Sony Music Japan, Vienna Philharmonic, Sky Walker Studios, Crest National Studios, Astoria Studios, Audio Research, Wilson Audio, BAT, Meridian, VTL, Bel Canto, Halcro, to name just a few.
To follow is a response from Mr. Gabriel that appeared in an on line forum addressing question why power can be such an influential addition to a system.
________________________________
Introduction: “There are a lot of misconceptions about power transmission and power quality that make it difficult for some people to understand why a power cord makes a sonic difference. The first question is – do power cords make any difference at all? There is no sense in talking about theories of operation if we can't agree that there is an audible effect. Most of the thousands of people that use our power cords started out as skeptics and have answered that question for themselves and have found that power cables and power conditioners can have a profound impact on performance. And no - I do not care to debate with people that have not done the simplest of tests about whether power cords work or not. The only cases where a high quality cord does not have significant effects is when it is used with a poor quality power conditioner that acts as a high impedance to instantaneous current flow. “
Misconception #1: AC Power is like water coming from a large power tank, flowing through several 10s of feet of power hose into a component. This implies that the component is at the end of this system.
Answer: “Actually, the component sits between two power conductors: the hot and the neutral. AC power oscillates (alternates) back and forth at a 50-60 Hz rate. So power does not pour into the component at all. The component's power supply is within a complex network of wires and connectors. ALL of the wire and connectors can and do affect the performance of the component's power supply.”
Misconception #2: AC power can be contaminated just like water in a hose. This implies that once the water is contaminated at some point up stream, that is must be cleansed before it arrives at the audio component.
Answer: “As stated in #1, the component is not at the end of the power hose. It is between two power hoses and the current is oscillating back and forth. Further, current is not like water at all. Electrons cannot be contaminated. There are two aspects to power transmission: the electromagnetic wave and the current flow. The current itself cannot be contaminated but the electromagnetic wave can be modulated with other frequencies. We usually call these other frequencies noise or Electromagnetic Interference (EMI). Within the various parts of a power circuit there may be EMI in certain parts that is not present in others. Electromagnetic energy can be transformed or redirected to lessen their effects.
Some power cords use capacitors, inductors, or ferrites in an attempt to control the electromagnetic fields around the audio component. The success of such an approach is completely dependent upon the specific design and the reactance of the power supply of the component to which the power cable is attached.”
Misconception #3: There is up to a hundred feet of wire in the walls, so the last 6 feet of power cord can't possibly make any difference.
Answer: “The power cord is not the last 6 feet, it is the first 6 feet from the perspective of the component. As stated in #1 the local current and electromagnetic effects directly affect the sonic performance of the component.”
Misconception #4: There is a tremendous amount of electrical interference and EMI coming from outside the home that we need to protect our equipment from. This implies that we need some sort of power conditioner or filter to protect the equipment.
Answer: “Most of the EMI that affects the audio quality of a system is generated by the audio components themselves. Electromagnetic waves that traveling through space dissipate in power at the square of the distance from the source. Further, very high frequencies that propagate through the power circuit do not survive for long. Power lines present a high impedance to MHz and GHz signals due to the relatively high inductance of power lines.
A primary source of audible sonic degradation is caused by the power supplies in our audio/video components. Most components use FWBR (full wave bridge rectifier) power supplies that generate an incredible amount of transient noise when the rectifiers switch off. The design of a power cable can significantly affect the reactance of these signals within the power supply. The power cable is effectively part of the primary winding of the power transformer. The transition between the various metals used in a power cable and its connectors can cause electromagnetic reflections and diode-like rectification of the noise impulses as they propagate away from the power supply. If the power cable presents a high impedance to these signals they will be reflected back into the power supply where they will intermodulate, thus increasing the high frequency noise levels of the component. Most power supply filters are ineffective at blocking very high frequency noise components and much of it is passed through to the DC rails. The sonic effects of this include: high background noise levels, blurred or slurred transients and a general lack of clarity and purity of the sound or visual image.”
Misconception #5: There is some sort of conspiracy among audio designers that keeps them from producing a "proper" power supply that is not affect by power cable quality.
Answer: “This concept is like saying that if a speaker where properly designed, you wouldn't need to use a good quality speaker cable. PowerSnakes have been tested with the most modest of mid-fi equipment and the most exotic state of the art components. We have yet to find a component that cannot be improved by replacing the power cord.
As long as power supply design is based upon FWBRs or switching supplies, the power cord will always be significant.”
Misconception #6: High-end power cords just increase the circuit capacitance acting as a high-frequency shunt
Answer: “There are some power cords that ARE designed this way. Some even insert capacitors within the cable to further increase capacitance. This approach has some positives and many negatives including the reactive interference with the way many power supplies are designed.
Capacitance alone cannot account for the differences in a power cord's performance. There are some high-end power cords that are very effective that have virtually immeasurable levels of capacitance. These cables are usually designed around hollow tubes with the conductors inside. The conductors are several inches apart and cannot significantly affect the capacitance of the power circuit.”
Misconception #7: Power cords are just like speaker cables; always the shorter the cable the better.
Answer: “Some speaker cable designers would argue that a speaker cable below a certain length is not better. We will let them address the issue if they desire.
"A speaker cable conducts an audio signal from the power amplifier to the speaker. The distance is quite small, on the order of a couple of feet to several feet. The quality of a speaker cable is determined by how well it can transmit the signal from the amplifier to the speaker without alteration.
"A power cable on the other hand is not transmitting a signal. It is conducting A.C. power and its sonic superiority will be determined by its ability to deliver current (steady-state and instantaneous) and its ability to deal with the EMI effects of the components to which it is attached.
Since a power cord is composed of a hot and neutral wire that the component sits between, a change in the length of the cord will increase the size of the "buffer" around the component. In general, I would not recommend a power cord that is shorter than 3 feet or 1 meter in length. But subtle degrees of audio performance are not the only consideration when putting together an audio system. Esthetics is also important especially when the system is located in a beautiful home. I just point out the performance differences so that people can make an informed decision when determining the optimum length for their cables.
"There is much more that can be discussed about power delivery but for the sake of brevity I'll cut it short at this point. On a personal note I would like to say that I was an audiophile long before I was a manufacturer of audio products. Before Shunyata Research I designed high speed networking devices and can tell you that there is a lot more money to be made in the computer industry. Like many of the manufacturers of high-end audio components, I design my products for myself and for the love of music. If other people like what I have created - great. If after trying our product you prefer another - great. There is a wide diversity of preference and subjective perception among individuals. Thank goodness there is also a wide diversity of manufacturers that create products to serve a variety of tastes.”
Caelin Gabriel Shunyata Research Inc.
Addendum:
“Before we produced our first power cord, we did extensive testing of the audible effects of a variety of devices and materials associated with power transmission. We created many jigs and test apparatus that allowed us to test wire types, dielectric materials, connector contacts, dampening materials and a variety of transformers, chokes, coils, ferrites, capacitors, triacs and diacs. After 3 years of testing, we concluded that just about anything and everything that is inserted in or around the electromagnetic field of a power circuit has an audible effect. Some of the effects are quite small and are relatively insignificant. Others are dramatically profound and sometimes surprising in their behavior. Obviously we are not going to "give away the farm" and discuss all of our findings, but there are some very basic observations that I can share with you.
First would be that wire type and size in a power cord is highly overrated. Every wire type (I am talking about the metal itself) has a specific sonic characteristic. Silver, copper, brass, gold and others all "sound" different. The difference in sound is not related to conductivity capacity because we adjusted the sizes during testing to account for this. Each of the metal's inherent "sonics" can be ameliorated by careful adjustment of the other materials used in the construction of the final cable. We have a warehouse full of various prototype cables that never made it to production. Some of these use a relatively small wire size of ~18ga, that sounds surprising full in the bass. Intuitively, you might think that a small wire would sound thin in the bass region. This is not always the case. Conversely, we have some cables with wire as large as 1gauge that sound powerful in the bass but are also flabby and irregular sounding. So, just increasing the wire size is not the easy answer that some might think.
Most of what I have to say here are my "conclusions" based upon observation through trial and error testing. Furthermore, there are no perfect components and there are no perfect parts. Everything is relative and the designer must weigh the sonic value of each part when designing a product. Our philosophy is to create a product that is a faithful musical component as opposed to striving for excellence in any single performance area.
Our tests with coils and chokes indicate that (in general, with exceptions) that any coil or choke that is placed in-line with the power circuit is harmful to dynamics. Many of them will also induce a subtle smearing or blurring of transients. This is naturally dependent upon the power supply design of the unit that the coil is used with. Coils and chokes are necessary in most components and I prefer "single layer wound" types such as the foil designs. Cost of production will always mitigate against the use of these types of coils due to the expense. We definitely do not believe in placing coils or capacitors within a power cable. These devices belong in the component or in a dedicated power conditioner.
Many components use a power inlet IEC that has an integrated "L" or "pi" filter. The quality of these devices varies dramatically. Generally speaking, the more capacitors and inductors that you have in a circuit, the more complex the dynamic interactions will be between the devices. This will also make the component they are used in more reactive and the possibility of negative sonic effects increase. Multiple filter networks can resonate and generate unintended results that have subtle but audible ringing / pinging sounds. Many of these IEC packages were created for office and computer products and are required to pass certification tests for EMI emissions. All I can say is that what is good for a fax machine is not necessarily good for a pre-amplifier.
Shielding can be a two-edged sword. On one hand, it can reduce radiated fields from impacting other components. On the other hand, the shielding may induce re-radiated fields onto the cable or component that it is being used in. Sometimes the cure may be worse than the illness. As always - you must know your materials and tools and apply intelligence with a small dose of intuition to create a world class product. There is no silver bullet and there is no rote formula that works in all cases. There is just hard work, occasional inspiration and lots of testing.”
Caelin Gabriel Shunyata Research Inc.
"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - Albert Einstein.
|
|
|
Post by rowmat on May 27, 2016 16:50:26 GMT -6
Rowmat said, "Whether or not the power cable is made from Kryptonite or some other kind of unobtanium is immaterial. It is simply supplying AC mains at 50 or 60hz to the power supply which is completely altered by the rectifier and filter capacitors in the supply. If you pay more than $10 for a power cord the only people who are benefiting are those taking your money.I had to laugh out oud, but not at you, at myself. I felt the same way twenty years ago, nothing in the world could convince me a power cord could make any difference. Then I had the chance to try some, and a few more, and a few more, and damn if they didn't improve the sound, some little or none, and some quite a bit. It was simply undeniable. I'm not so stubborn as to deny what I'm hearing because I don't believe it could be, or know it can't be, (not saying anyone here is doing that). It is interesting to discuss why, but frankly, it doesn't matter in the least to me. You can tell me all day long why it can't be, then try a half dozen power cords between $150 and $2,000, and see what you hear, just don't think about it ;-) and then get back to me. Expectation bias is a very powerful psychological phenomena. How much double blind testing of 'said' power cables did you do? I have done such testing (many years ago) and no one could tell the difference between a $6 power cord and a $1500 power cord... except when they thought they were aware which one was being used. When they knew they were listening to the expensive cable five out of five believed it sounded better. When they knew they were listening to the cheap cable five out of five believe it sounded worse. When they 'thought' they were listening to the expensive cable five out of five believe it sounded better, however I had actually swapped cables without anyone realising and they were listening to the cheap cable. At this point we continued with double blind testing an no one could consistently pick the difference. It fact in 10 tests the the overall score was around 55% correct which so close to 50/50 that it flipping a coin would have produced similar results. Cables do make a difference when comparing 'chalk and cheese' but a $6 adequately rated power cord and a grossly ovepriced carbon fibre wrapped gold plated power cord supplied in a velvet line oak box is not 'chalk and cheese' it is clever marketing designed to separate people from their money.
|
|
|
Post by Guitar on May 27, 2016 16:51:33 GMT -6
Well one thing about the Shunyata cables...they look really cool! :-D I didn't get a whole lot out of that article though. He uses a lot of "lingo" that is not necessarily technical or schientiffic. But that's just my opinion.
|
|
|
Post by rowmat on May 27, 2016 16:57:10 GMT -6
Besides just turning off your cell phone would likely make 10,000 times more difference to the sound (interference) than whether the power cord connecting your amplifier to your wall socket cost $6 or $6000!
|
|
|
Post by rowmat on May 27, 2016 17:14:03 GMT -6
Rowmat said, "Whether or not the power cable is made from Kryptonite or some other kind of unobtanium is immaterial. It is simply supplying AC mains at 50 or 60hz to the power supply which is completely altered by the rectifier and filter capacitors in the supply. If you pay more than $10 for a power cord the only people who are benefiting are those taking your money.I had to laugh out oud, but not at you, at myself. I felt the same way twenty years ago, nothing in the world could convince me a power cord could make any difference. Then I had the chance to try some, and a few more, and a few more, and damn if they didn't improve the sound, some little or none, and some quite a bit. It was simply undeniable. I'm not so stubborn as to deny what I'm hearing because I don't believe it could be, or know it can't be, (not saying anyone here is doing that). It is interesting to discuss why, but frankly, it doesn't matter in the least to me. You can tell me all day long why it can't be, then try a half dozen power cords between $150 and $2,000, and see what you hear, just don't think about it ;-) and then get back to me. One could argue that everything makes a difference ($25,000 power cords???) but to what degree and at what cost is the question? If I take an eye dropper of water and stand on the edge of the ocean and then add a single drop of water to the ocean I could argue that I have just raised the sea level (all things considered) around the entire planet. Now tell me I didn't. I added water the ocean therefore the level must rise. It's logical isn't? This is the kind of logic purveyors of audiophile gear porn commonly use. But did you see the water rise? Can you measure it? If I had $25,000 I could find many more things I could do with that money to improve the sound of an audio system. Probably the number one thing would be spend $24,994 on acoustic treatment and who knows I'd even have enough left over for a $6 power cord!
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on May 27, 2016 17:15:57 GMT -6
Not trying to be contrarian, but I do not subscribe to double blind tests at all. There are so many ways to invalidate them, they might as well be useless.
|
|
|
Post by rowmat on May 27, 2016 17:22:34 GMT -6
Not trying to be contrarian, but I do not subscribe to double blind tests at all. There are so many ways to invalidate them, they might as well be useless. Tell me, how many times have you altered a setting, EQ, compression etc. and heard a distinct difference in the sound only to find that that piece of gear you were adjusting was bypassed or not connected?
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on May 27, 2016 17:27:29 GMT -6
Besides just turning off your cell phone would likely make 10,000 times more difference to the sound (interference) than whether the power cord connecting your amplifier to your wall socket cost $6 or $6000! So you say, but honestly, it's just not true in my experience. I've turned off cell phones and believe me, they didn't make the slightest noticeable difference in either my recording or home stereo system. A friend sent me two power cords that owed me a favor. I had no idea what they were worth. I always switch the $5 cords that come with some gear, even if it's with a slightly better made $20 power cord I have sitting around. I tried the two power cords my friend sent on my stereo system. They both looked substantial, you wouldn't think one was more expensive than another. Just to explain, the higher cost power cords I do have typically cost less than $150, a few a little more. So I'm not talking about one made with unobtanium metals from meteors kind of prices here. One power cord made little difference I could notice, and one made a big difference. The main improvement was in ambient sound, I could almost see and feel the room the music was performed in, the soundstage was now more 3D, that, and even very low bass notes had more tone now than boom. It turned out the power cord I didn't like was originally $275, and the one I did like, originally cost $2,000. I would never go that far myself, but I had no idea what they cost, and just chose what I liked. I've also noticed differences switching two $50 power cords, so it isn't always high dollars that matter evidently.
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on May 27, 2016 17:37:48 GMT -6
I guess we can never quite resolve this debate, although I have experienced a few adamantly opposed to high end cable folks who've changed their minds after certain epiphanies.
Here's where I won't budge, I resent people telling me what I'm hearing isn't real. I've had a few instances where some of the world's most respected multi-Grammy winning, accoladed to infinity producers whose names I'll keep to myself have argued with me about something I've noticed, only to later on be definitively proven wrong in front of professional witnesses.
I also have no beef with anyone who's happy with the sound they have. I've only ever said, have you tried it? You wouldn't believe how many people have debated this with me, (I'm a recovering audiophile), who've never even given it a try.
|
|
|
Post by Guitar on May 27, 2016 17:44:30 GMT -6
Any thoughts on the Antelope 10MX Clock? Sweetwater has it for sale for $5995.00 Successful producer Greg Wells has posted on gearslutz his amazing testimonial. Dan Lavry has thrown shade on the topic of external clocking providing any sort of technical benefit over internal clocking. Although some people like the sound of jitter and the Anetlope guy you watch on youtube is talking about "musical jitter" and tuning it to sound good.
I'm not sure what to think, but I am damn sure I can't afford it.
|
|
|
Post by rowmat on May 27, 2016 17:45:45 GMT -6
Besides just turning off your cell phone would likely make 10,000 times more difference to the sound (interference) than whether the power cord connecting your amplifier to your wall socket cost $6 or $6000! "... I could almost see and feel the room the music was performed in, the soundstage was now more 3D, that, and even very low bass notes were more tuneful, not as boomy..." Forgive me but I'm trying to understand whether or not you believe the miles and miles of 'non audiophile' power cable that connects the power grid to your home via your fuse box and then to the power outlet in your wall doesn't enter the equation? Because if three or four feet of 'audiophile grade power' cable can work miracles then what about the miles of crappy cable it's attached to? (rhetorically speaking of course)
|
|
|
Post by wiz on May 27, 2016 18:11:54 GMT -6
We've ridden this carousel before.... 8)
If you think something makes you make better music, and you can afford it... go for it.
During the testing process though, get someone to test you out... and then decide if the dollar to shiny ratio is good...
cheers
Wiz
|
|
|
Post by rowmat on May 27, 2016 18:27:24 GMT -6
Just some background: I spent much of my 20's selling audio gear and attending Hi-Fi and trade shows.
The biggest crooks in the business sold the cheapest products at the most inflated prices with the biggest claims of sonic nirvana.
Many so called Hi-Fi reviewers received payola either directly or via advertising revenue from the publications they wrote reviews and articles for.
Try a pair of RCA interconnects that sold for $895.00
Cost price ex China $39.00 The velvet lined wooden box they came packaged in cost $45.00 Quite a nice box really!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 27, 2016 19:05:23 GMT -6
Oh wow. This guy from Shunyata knows how to sell snake oil. Just like Ennemoser, who found a completely new branch of physics. (Which is absolutely ridiculous.) It sounds like a medical doctor who wants to sell me sugar pills that contain nothing but sugar as highly "potent medicine".(Called homeopathy.) I really waited for the words "quantum physics", which normally is used to explain the most dubious stuff. Don't even know where to start... We all have the wrong perspective. Uhum. I should see the cable from the perspective of the ... what? "There is no sense in talking about theories of operation if we can't agree that there is an audible effect." Oh, oh, oh. So. what did he really wrote that we should swallow? There is no sense in talking to us critical thinkers because we don't agree to HIS theory (that there IS an audible effect)? We should agree on the effect that we say is not existent, before we can even start to discuss. Seems legit. NOT. Ridiculous. At this sentence i should have stopped reading. Accept i am right, otherwise we can not talk about why i may not be right. OM*G (i censored myself to not swear too much.) It comes even better. "Our customers were all sceptic first......but..." Yes, the anecdotical trick, blown up to an undefined number of people. Well, this stands against hundreds of thousands of technicians, engineers, physicists .... who use most delicate lab measurement equipment - and DON'T buy this cable to improve their work. Looks like a long crusade. OK, i take one more citation for comments and will end this, i am too tired to disarm all these, uhm, "misconceptions".... "Most of what I have to say here are my "conclusions" based upon observation through trial and error testing. Furthermore, there are no perfect components and there are no perfect parts. Everything is relative and the designer must weigh the sonic value of each part when designing a product. Our philosophy is to create a product that is a faithful musical component as opposed to striving for excellence in any single performance area." His conclusions. OK. Why are the only people sharing similar conclusions all producers and sellers of power cables? Hmmmm. "through trial and error testing". If he can explain the whole thing scientifically/technically, "debunking" the "misconceptions" of nearly all people involved professionally with, ehm, electrically powered equipment, what kind of trial and error wss needed? "Everything is relative..." No. OK this part ends with the "philosophy". (Not with a great technical or physical discovery - because there is non.)
Up to this point, where the "technical" debunking of the common (sense) "misconceptions" begins, the text already is packed full of typical snake oil argumentation pieces, as there are: - religious/esoteric type of pre-aristotelian logic. Naah, i better call it simply "Bulls***". "Accept i am right, than we can discuss if i am wrong". This also is used to prepare the reader to let all critical thinking go... - anecdotical argumentation without any relevance "all our customers". Really? How many are these? Was there a survey if they have been sceptical before and now are all happy believers? - generally assuming, that the sceptic sees things WRONG. ("misconceptions") In marketing this is called "proper objection handling". It should turn negative stress of the potential buyer (scepticism) into positive stress. It doesn't matter, if the handling is reasonable, as long as it sounds reasonable. - mentioning trial and error testing without any information about the kind of tests, test parameters, statistical information... Simply no information at all. Believe. - no specs. If i make an exceptional technical product, i would mention/publish specs that show in a kind of objective manner, in which regard my product is superior to others. I mean, we are talking a technical product. We all know that specs are questionable, except they give really detailed information (like standardized specs for broadcast compliance etc....). But absolutely no specs for arguing?
And i will not dissect the whole long and weary article. But a few last thoughts: In serious science/technics/engineering, the one who claims a theory (there is audible difference in power cords) is the one who has to proof his claim. Which makes absolutely sense. What do we read in the article? "If you don't believe my claim you did not understand ... e.g. AC, electrons, relativity, power, voltage, EMI etc.etc.etc." Competent? It looks like it to non-technicians. And these are the potential buyers. Oh yes, impressive list of customers. What did they buy? Expensive power cable? I highly doubt that. But even if they did, is this evidence for the claim? No.
I said earlier i waited for quantum physics, the typical esoterical argument that works so well, because very few people understand quantum physics, so it sounds as you are very, very competent. A citation of Albert Einstein in the end is almost as good. There are also very few people who really understand what he wrote about gravitation, relativity, speed of light, matter etc.. Einstein is super-scientific.
|
|
|
Post by rowmat on May 27, 2016 19:23:04 GMT -6
Not trying to be contrarian, but I do not subscribe to double blind tests at all. There are so many ways to invalidate them, they might as well be useless. The issue with knowing what you are listening to comes back to expectation bias. The expectation is a that a $500 cable will sound better than a $50 cable. Therefore a $5000 should generate an even higher level of expectation. This phenomena is not unusual and has been proven time and time again. Unless you don't know which one you are listening to during testing your judgement will be influenced by expectation bias. The fact that you won't subscribe to double blind tests indicates that you don't have faith you could consistently indentify which cable is which. Considering you could clearly indentify one cable over the others as being more 3D and lifelike I would have thought you would be able to easily pick this cable in a double blind test? I just find it interesting that if the difference is so great I don't see why blind testing should be disregarded as it would prove without a doubt that one cable was superior without anyone's judgement being influenced. I'm not saying cables make no differences. Of course they do but it varies greatly depending on the cable and the application AND we aren't even taking speaker cables or signal cable here, we are discussing a power cord which carries no audio signals. I used to co run a PA system with a friend. When paralleling up speaker boxes the cable impedance became a crucial part of the calculation. We often paralleled up speakers boxes to 2ohms when the amplifiers were only rated to drive 4ohm loads. As long as the cable impedance ended up at around 1.5 to 2ohms (long cable runs) the amplifiers would end up seeing 3.5 to 4ohms in total so they would cope okay. That's an extreme example of how a cable can dramatically effect a sound system. A few feet of mains cable is not.
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on May 27, 2016 19:34:58 GMT -6
Thanks for reading through that long post guys. I didn't post it as a rebuttal to statements, I really was curious to see if you thought there was merit to claims. I would imagine the guy who wrote that has credentials in engineering, so I don't know what to make of it all sometimes. This brings me back to my one and only true question. Have you guys tried this? Have you simply switched a stock cable for a high end cable and listened carefully? Another thing about tests, there are important things you might discover after spending time with a product that might not be evident at first listen. I guess some here have, but you'd be really surprised how many people I've encountered who will argue until they're blue in the face, but haven't even tried it for themselves. I also suggest not just trying one power cord and if it doesn't do much blowing the whole idea off. Borrow or try a few different ones. I think the Cable Company will refund if you don't purchase a cable, at least they used to. thecableco.comLet's me make my statements perfectly clear. I've heard improvements when changing power cords, usually ranging in price from $50-$350, nothing off the wall only millionaires can afford. All I've ever recommended is people interested try it for themselves. My reason, there are things today I've had people berate me about in audiophile forums 15-20 years ago that are now commonly accepted, like jitter being an important factor. So who knows what information may come to light in the future. Just having a listen certainly won't hurt, and might be something you like. * forgot to mention that when I've switched out power cords, I had friends do it, and didn't know which was which.
|
|
|
Post by rowmat on May 27, 2016 19:48:09 GMT -6
I'll say it again, spending more than about $10-$15 on an average length (3-4ft) AC power cord only benefits the seller/manufacturer (snake oil salesman).
There's laws of physics and there's audiophile gobbledygook and most purveyors of overpriced cables and other audio gadgetry subscribe to the latter.
I've seen it, I've worked in the business and I was even part of it.
Manufacturer's trade nights would include sales pitches often based on total bullshit. High end audio accessory people were the worse. ie. Little stands that supported your speaker cables off the floor.. "to improve the accuracy of the flow of the electrons" I mean what shite!
Let's face it if you're going to charge some poor bastard $1500 or more for a power cord then you better be able to dress up your sales pitch which some pretty mind blowing technobabble!
|
|
|
Post by Guitar on May 27, 2016 19:58:47 GMT -6
That's the thing that gets me about it, is the obfuscating language.
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on May 27, 2016 20:07:28 GMT -6
We've ridden this carousel before.... 8) If you think something makes you make better music, and you can afford it... go for it. During the testing process though, get someone to test you out... and then decide if the dollar to shiny ratio is good... cheers Wiz We could really end the conversation here... (Not that I expect it to...)
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on May 27, 2016 20:16:49 GMT -6
rowdy said,"I'll say it again, spending more than about $10-$15 on an average length (3-4ft) AC power cord only benefits the seller/manufacturer (snake oil salesman)."
I'm sorry, but this has not been true for me at all, and for quite a few very smart and discerning people I know.
I'm still waiting for an answer to my question from all the posters here, did you ever try this, switching out a few power cables and listening to see if there are any differences?
Simply saying it's not possible means your mind is made up, so why bother discussing it at all. I believe it can certainly be debated. I know some people who are incredibly qualified to weigh in on the subject, but they just won't bother with this kind of thing, so I am woefully inadequate to debate anything when it comes to electrical engineering. But, I feel the conversation is incomplete if you haven't even tried what I suggest.
And if you have, and find no difference worth noting, great, I have no quarrel if you're completely happy with your system the way you've chosen to rig it. But as I stated before, please don't imply I'm kidding myself, because I am not.
|
|
|
Post by Guitar on May 27, 2016 20:18:52 GMT -6
We've ridden this carousel before.... 8) If you think something makes you make better music, and you can afford it... go for it. During the testing process though, get someone to test you out... and then decide if the dollar to shiny ratio is good... cheers Wiz We could really end the conversation here... (Not that I expect it to...) Well an RGO tizzy is a mild and friendly thing as far as tizzies go, so I approve. :-O
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 27, 2016 20:19:22 GMT -6
OK, really, if someone asks me to attend such a test, no problem. Do i need to test if there is a difference? No. Cables are fully understood in their relevant technical parameters and behaviour. There is nothing unknown about this. I don't even have to believe that there is no audible difference. I know. This is so cool about science. There are things you know. You can proof them in different ways, experimentally, empirically ... and they just describe reality in totally defined borders of validity. Power cables do not make the audible difference in the applications mentioned. There is a much larger consent about this then there is reason to believe in something different. If somebody actually gives evidence for the "audible power cable claim", i happily am the first DIYin exceptionally good power cables after these new findings. But i actually know this day will never come. There is nothing about these cables that is not sufficiently described and understood already. I am sure there is no difference in a double blind test. And if the test lasts 100 years to take care of long-time hearing experience to learn how to distinguish the cables. It would not change anything about that. Does this sound absolutistic, stubborn and not open to new findings? Oh yes. I have no doubt there will be no new finding about this... IMO this is no matter of believing.
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on May 27, 2016 20:24:28 GMT -6
I've learned so much from some of the cats here. No one's being obnoxious at all, rowmat clearly knows a lot and has made great posts here. We disagree on one thing, but that's no big deal. It's about a frickin' power cord, not something actually very important like music becoming so devalued that few of us can make a living anymore.
I make 5% of what I made in 1988 now for the same thing. Now that's something I'd like to knock into some corporate blockheads brain who owns streaming services and believes the abominable pittance their pay for music now is too high.
|
|