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Post by Johnkenn on May 24, 2016 23:13:25 GMT -6
I wouldn't doubt it. VK was asking $13 not long ago...Ridiculous.
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Post by levon on May 24, 2016 23:27:30 GMT -6
I'm sure someone out there had exactly that same reaction when the first Fairchild 670 hit that price mark.
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Post by levon on May 24, 2016 23:40:24 GMT -6
Just like people with yachts worth 15 million, or people who own their own planes, these are boutique items for millionaires with $100,000 turntables, $150,000 speakers and $150,000 amps and preamps. Like anything else, there's always a ridiculous top of the pyramid. I bet here's a $300,000 pair of sneakers somewhere. But I'll tell you this, I've had some very expensive cables in my previous system. I used to beta test for a few manufacturers 15 years ago, so they gave them to me. Believe me, you could clearly hear the huge improvement they made. I sold them all to cover hospital bills, today, I have a simple system, but pieces are well chosen. We fuss like crazy over the slightest difference in a part in a mic, or a particular holy grail tube, or an antique compressor, and then we change out parts! Do you really think we're so different? All Vovox cables have a directional flow and are recommended to be used in a certain way. I can certainly hear a difference to cheaper cables and I wouldn't say that Vovox is snake oil. Sure, you can buy a guitar cable for $5 and be happy with it, but just because some people can't or don't want to afford expensive stuff, doesn't mean it's always useless. Sour grapes? (BTW, that's not directed at you, Martin, I quoted you to respond to your positive experience with high-end cables, which, I believe, is absolutely true. But people spend major bucks on mics, instruments and gear and then hook it up with cheapo cables. Well, to each their own.)
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Post by tasteliketape on May 24, 2016 23:55:55 GMT -6
Man I'm with you on good cables , but direction? Can someone tell me how this works ,maybe so but I'd like to know how (being serious) not dissing I just can't see how electric current can distinguish direction
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Post by ragan on May 25, 2016 0:16:12 GMT -6
Just like people with yachts worth 15 million, or people who own their own planes, these are boutique items for millionaires with $100,000 turntables, $150,000 speakers and $150,000 amps and preamps. Like anything else, there's always a ridiculous top of the pyramid. I bet here's a $300,000 pair of sneakers somewhere. But I'll tell you this, I've had some very expensive cables in my previous system. I used to beta test for a few manufacturers 15 years ago, so they gave them to me. Believe me, you could clearly hear the huge improvement they made. I sold them all to cover hospital bills, today, I have a simple system, but pieces are well chosen. We fuss like crazy over the slightest difference in a part in a mic, or a particular holy grail tube, or an antique compressor, and then we change out parts! Do you really think we're so different? All Vovox cables have a directional flow and are recommended to be used in a certain way. I can certainly hear a difference to cheaper cables and I wouldn't say that Vovox is snake oil. Sure, you can buy a guitar cable for $5 and be happy with it, but just because some people can't or don't want to afford expensive stuff, doesn't mean it's always useless. Sour grapes? (BTW, that's not directed at you, Martin, I quoted you to respond to your positive experience with high-end cables, which, I believe, is absolutely true. But people spend major bucks on mics, instruments and gear and then hook it up with cheapo cables. Well, to each their own.) Do they null with the "cheapo" cables? Honest question. Am I doing something wrong? I've only tried it a couple times but I can't pick out "high end" balanced cables in an ABX and they null in Pro Tools. I'm seriously curious what the audiophile answer is to null tests. And I'm glad to be wrong if I'm missing something.
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Post by yotonic on May 25, 2016 1:20:35 GMT -6
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Post by levon on May 25, 2016 1:43:49 GMT -6
All Vovox cables have a directional flow and are recommended to be used in a certain way. I can certainly hear a difference to cheaper cables and I wouldn't say that Vovox is snake oil. Sure, you can buy a guitar cable for $5 and be happy with it, but just because some people can't or don't want to afford expensive stuff, doesn't mean it's always useless. Sour grapes? (BTW, that's not directed at you, Martin, I quoted you to respond to your positive experience with high-end cables, which, I believe, is absolutely true. But people spend major bucks on mics, instruments and gear and then hook it up with cheapo cables. Well, to each their own.) Do they null with the "cheapo" cables? Honest question. Am I doing something wrong? I've only tried it a couple times but I can't pick out "high end" balanced cables in an ABX and they null in Pro Tools. I'm seriously curious what the audiophile answer is to null tests. And I'm glad to be wrong if I'm missing something. No idea, honestly, I'm not a technician (or a fanatic audiophile) and null test don't really interest me. But I've talked to people more knowledgeable than me and they confirmed that the directional flow of currents (not sure I'm using the right words here) do matter and have an influence on the sound, i.e. better transients, treble or whatever. Whether that really matters to your guitar tone in the end is entirely up to you. I'm sure Page and Clapton never bothered about this in their day...
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Post by levon on May 25, 2016 1:44:28 GMT -6
...but is this the right direction?
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Post by levon on May 25, 2016 1:45:46 GMT -6
Just to clarify, I'm not defending audio snake oil. But there is a difference between $45,000 power cords and high-end cables that serve a purpose, IMHO
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Post by kilroyrock on May 25, 2016 6:23:09 GMT -6
I wonder if power cords matter more or less with Digital amps with switching PSU's? I hear switching PSU's are the devil's work. Some guy told me that the other day...
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Post by kilroyrock on May 25, 2016 6:27:10 GMT -6
To be clear; it does not make a bit of difference which direction the resistor faces. They were all either horribly misinformed or relatively insane. With this said, does it matter what order I put the resistors in a ladder? This could speed up these vp28 builds dramatically if I didn't follow Chung's ordering too...
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Post by Ward on May 25, 2016 6:29:37 GMT -6
Gold plated wiring and connectors. PLATED.
Pure snake oil
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Post by kilroyrock on May 25, 2016 6:31:07 GMT -6
Gold plated wiring and connectors. PLATED. Pure snake oil I feel like I'm going mad on this thread.. but I hear the only actual reason for the different platings is if you live near a very wet environment, that the tip is less likely to corrode if gold plated? is that wrong too?
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Post by Ward on May 25, 2016 6:37:31 GMT -6
Gold may corrode much more slowly than most other metals but it wears faster than all but lead. So, the gold plating can be worn off if a lot of removals and reconnections are made.
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Post by drew571 on May 25, 2016 6:55:11 GMT -6
location: moscow = no thanks
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Post by swurveman on May 25, 2016 6:57:15 GMT -6
To me, the entire concept that a $149.00 LA2A plug in is just as good as the $3,500.00 hardware is the biggest snake oil of all. It is the result of the decline of overall music industry income and good graphical user interfaces, not some magical modeling revolution. There is no other industry in the world making a claim that a product that costs 96% less than another is just as good, or even "gets you almost all the way there".The ITB mixing trend is economic, not based on quality. And it is perpetrated by peddlers to fools who don't understand that hardware was used in the tracking phase of the so called "itb mixes", where most of the sound was sculpted.
Let's face it, who wouldn't rather have a Neve and SSL console with the tracking and mixing done with hardware outboard patched in? We justify inferior substitutes because we cannot afford the real thing.
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Post by kilroyrock on May 25, 2016 7:08:15 GMT -6
To me, the entire concept that a $149.00 LA2A plug in is just as good as the $3,500.00 hardware is the biggest snake oil of all. It is the result of the decline of overall music industry income and good graphical user interfaces, not some magical modeling revolution. There is no other industry in the world making a claim that a product that costs 96% less than another is just as good, or even "gets you almost all the way there".The ITB mixing trend is economic, not based on quality. And it is perpetrated by peddlers to fools who don't understand that hardware was used in the tracking phase of the so called "itb mixes", where most of the sound was sculpted. Let's face it, who wouldn't rather have a Neve and SSL console with the tracking and mixing done with hardware outboard patched in? We justify inferior substitutes because we cannot afford the real thing. The D/A conversion is the worst part of any digital chain by far [so now] I don’t go through any. I feel like I’m sonically gaining something by never coming out [of the box]. – Andrew Scheps (U2, Justin Timberlake, Green Day) ”
I wouldn’t be [mixing in the box] if it weren’t that for me at this moment my mixes sound better. When I started to send mixes [that were done in the box] to the clients and all I got back were normal mix notes, I knew that this would work. – Andrew Scheps (Beyonce, Ziggy Marley, Black Sabbath) ”
I am painfully aware of my legacy of quotes referring to mixing using analog equipment. That is how I mixed. For years. I was an evangelist for it; as much for the ergonomic, visceral workflow as the sonics. Now I mix ITB. It’s a completely different way of working. I still love mixing and try and make every mix I do super exciting and musical. – Andrew Scheps (Kid Rock, Our Lady Peace, Josh Groban) ”
But you're right.. he still records everything through his amazing preamps and gear. Which is why I am focusing on all tracking equipment. The recall of a mix ITB is the ultimate convenience. I also can't buy 4 eqp1a's, and 4 1176's, hell I can't afford 4 WA76's!
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Post by cowboycoalminer on May 25, 2016 7:21:45 GMT -6
Dang I sold mine for half price according to this. What was I thinking?
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,967
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Post by ericn on May 25, 2016 7:28:14 GMT -6
Gold may corrode much more slowly than most other metals but it wears faster than all but lead. So, the gold plating can be worn off if a lot of removals and reconnections are made. Add in the fact that often it is "gold metal" not gold plated and it becomes even more fun!
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Post by cowboycoalminer on May 25, 2016 7:33:53 GMT -6
To me, the entire concept that a $149.00 LA2A plug in is just as good as the $3,500.00 hardware is the biggest snake oil of all. It is the result of the decline of overall music industry income and good graphical user interfaces, not some magical modeling revolution. There is no other industry in the world making a claim that a product that costs 96% less than another is just as good, or even "gets you almost all the way there".The ITB mixing trend is economic, not based on quality. And it is perpetrated by peddlers to fools who don't understand that hardware was used in the tracking phase of the so called "itb mixes", where most of the sound was sculpted. Let's face it, who wouldn't rather have a Neve and SSL console with the tracking and mixing done with hardware outboard patched in? We justify inferior substitutes because we cannot afford the real thing. Couldn't agree more with this.
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Post by indiehouse on May 25, 2016 7:43:01 GMT -6
Well, here we go again. Jim Williams mentioned he hears improvement with Cardas cabling he uses, I hear definite changes when switching out cables myself. I just don't see how we can all spend so much time discussing the slightest nuance of a difference between things like PVC or PVT film in a capsule, a NOS tube with a dot on it, minute revisions of a compressor, the difference between a dozen similar wall treatments, studio designs, headphones, a dozen different plugs modeling the same thing, the difference between a late 1959 guitar and an early 1960, the solder we use, capacitance in guitar cables, do a dozen mic tests, buy and sell things endlessly seeking the absolute sound, and still can't open our minds to the possibility that different types of metal, different grades, different designs, different shielding in a cable or power cord might in fact make a subtle but vital difference in what we hear. We play a game of inches here all the time with everything, cables are no different. Decades ago, I had the most closed mind about this subject you can imagine, but after trying some Tributaries speaker wire that cost $90 and comparing it to my radio shack wire, the difference was undeniable. There was an instrument I couldn't tell if it was real or not, and it was now perfectly clear it was a sample, and there were some words in a few Tom Waits songs I could never decipher that really bugged me that were now perfectly intelligible, and the bass note's pitch was clearer. I didn't need to know much more. Ragan, try this one day. Just borrow a $150 or more power cord, (look for Acoustic Zen or Harmonic Technology), replace the power cord in your stereo's amp, or get two and replace your powered speaker's power cords, and see what you think. I once mentioned to kcat to try a $50 outlet. He did, and he definitely heard an improvement. An audiophile friend owed me a few favors. I mentioned I needed a power cord to replace the $5 one that came with my amp. He sent me two. I knew nothing about them at all. Plugged one in, listened, sounded fine, but I couldn't say it was any different than the stock cord, plugged in the other power cord, and the system came to life, mainly in the low end. I could now feel the space it was recorded in, and the depth perception improved dramatically. I didn't care if it cost $20 or $2,000, one was clearly better, and that's the one I still use. I simply don't believe in anecdotal evidence in matters like this. Everyone here has had the experience of tweaking an EQ and going "yeah, that vocal is sitting much better now" only to realize the damn thing is bypassed. It's just easy as hell to fool the ears, eyes, brain. Incredibly easy. So, re: balanced cables, no matter who thinks what about what, how do you answer the fact that they null? It has to be that either I (and many others) did the null tests wrong (over and over) or there's some flaw in the science behind null testing in general. Until someone offers something on those grounds, I gotta go with the null tests. But that's just me. Some people trust their ears (expectation bias be damned) and don't venture to do testing. And that's of course perfectly fine. Me personally, I gotta know the answer. I just don't have the budget to throw money at everything for peace of mind's sake. If something costs more and offers zero benefit, I need to know to not spend my money there. As for the power supply cables, I don't have a strong opinion on that cause I have really no experience with that world. But I am very curious about your feelings on the matter. I know you've talked about outlets and power cables before. What is it you believe they are doing? Not being sarcastic at all, I'm genuinely interested. I do a good bit of residential wiring in my work. There are hundreds of feet of 12 or 14 ga copper running around in our walls. Junction boxes, wire nuts, terminals, all over the place. And that's to say nothing of the dozens or hundreds of miles of wire carrying the voltage to your residential drop in the first place. I'm seriously curious as to what is alleged to be happening in the outlet and/or last 4 feet of wire that is improving the audio? Yeah, this really baffles my mind and makes zero sense to me.
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Post by EmRR on May 25, 2016 7:44:21 GMT -6
Null testing: the subtle differences that can affect total sound can be indistinguishable without the right test gear. Many low level (sub-110dBFS) artifact differences (hum, total noise floor) will appear to null, and you certainly can't hear them in a null test by themselves, but will be clearly and obviously different when observed with the right tools. Noise floor as example, sometimes this is an obvious clarity difference.
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Post by swurveman on May 25, 2016 7:45:04 GMT -6
The D/A conversion is the worst part of any digital chain by far [so now] I don’t go through any. I feel like I’m sonically gaining something by never coming out [of the box]. – Andrew Scheps (U2, Justin Timberlake, Green Day) ”
I wouldn’t be [mixing in the box] if it weren’t that for me at this moment my mixes sound better. When I started to send mixes [that were done in the box] to the clients and all I got back were normal mix notes, I knew that this would work. – Andrew Scheps (Beyonce, Ziggy Marley, Black Sabbath) ”
I am painfully aware of my legacy of quotes referring to mixing using analog equipment. That is how I mixed. For years. I was an evangelist for it; as much for the ergonomic, visceral workflow as the sonics. Now I mix ITB. It’s a completely different way of working. I still love mixing and try and make every mix I do super exciting and musical. – Andrew Scheps (Kid Rock, Our Lady Peace, Josh Groban) ” No offense to you kilroyrock, but I could care less what Andrew Scheps thinks. He's a plugin pimp after all. I do care what you think since you're part of this nice forum. If you're happy with plugins, more power to you
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Post by kilroyrock on May 25, 2016 7:53:42 GMT -6
No offense to you kilroyrock, but I could care less what Andrew Scheps thinks. He's a plugin pimp after all. I do care what you think since you're part of this nice forum. If you're happy with plugins, more power to you hahaha, yeah. but that's the point of the whole snake oil! It's true he's become quite the plugin pimp. CLA too.
I am a crappy mixer, and I know it. My strength is writing. I don't think anything I mix in the box vs out the box is going to be any better. I do know I work on so many concurrent projects, from EDM to Rock to Acoustic folk to metal, and if I had to remix everything every time I pulled something up to send a stem I'd shoot myself. I just don't make enough money, and never did!
I agree with you though, these plugins do a job and the better the SAME software API's that are behind 90% of all of these plugins (JUCE for example), the less it's going to matter which one does it. Slate sells a lot of plugins with those high definition graphics...
My current snake oil conundrum is whether SMT parts vs through hole make a big enough difference to be spending 6-8 hours building these dang 2520's! If I sell these and make more, I'm gonna go whistlerock for ease of build:cost
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Post by warrenfirehouse on May 25, 2016 7:57:16 GMT -6
The D/A conversion is the worst part of any digital chain by far [so now] I don’t go through any. I feel like I’m sonically gaining something by never coming out [of the box]. – Andrew Scheps (U2, Justin Timberlake, Green Day)
I've thought about this statement before, and bet that Mr Scheps' mastering guys are going through a d-a step to outboard in their process. Doesn't that make this statement pointless?
IME the sonic gain of good outboard outweighs the small loss in conversion. And I dont have top of the line D-A.
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