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Post by noah shain on Jul 17, 2015 19:16:16 GMT -6
RGO: Bringing Addicts and Pushers Together Since 2013 Destroying financial plans since 2013 |
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,107 
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Post by ericn on Jul 17, 2015 19:22:01 GMT -6
RGO: Bringing Addicts and Pushers Together Since 2013 Destroying financial plans since 2013 Or Giving that console you already own a bost for less than a new one! |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 17, 2015 20:02:09 GMT -6
Just bought one!!!
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 17, 2015 20:02:41 GMT -6
one...
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Post by jeromemason on Jul 17, 2015 22:38:48 GMT -6
Hey Jeff what are the thoughts on sticking these just in the fader out of the VP28? Like the pair on my buss has a combo of GAR 2520>GAR1731. Or best to just replace both?
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Post by noah shain on Jul 17, 2015 22:54:34 GMT -6
Destroying financial plans since 2013 Or Giving that console you already own a bost for less than a new one! I often go completely bat s__t crazy when I'm not working enough. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 17, 2015 22:57:11 GMT -6
Meh...what's the fun of not buying...
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Post by roundbadge on Jul 17, 2015 23:53:23 GMT -6
awesome idea for the 1608.
I always use the FD's and VP's over my 1608 channels first.
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Post by unit7 on Jul 23, 2015 14:46:00 GMT -6
I tested the Litz 2503 in an LC53A tonight. Tested on acoustic, kick and snare. If there's a difference it's really subtle. Perhaps the Litz sounds more open, not sure. Don't hesitate to take a listen and comment. To be able to A/B myself I used two different LC53s, so of course there could be a difference between the two of them, though actually the files cancels out if one is phase reversed. Perhaps I was stupid but I figured I wanted to hear test with the eq engaged so both units were set to rather extreme settings: +10dB peak @7khz, -4dB @ 400Hz and +10dB peak @ 100Hz. While at it, I wanted to test again the LC53As with different op amps, so I went from GAR2520s to Red dots, and again I can't hear any obvious difference, at least not on this snare recording. So for me, silver knobs instead of black still tops this!  VP28 next, but not as easy to A/B because it would have to involve either two mics, or two different takes. Not sure when I'll have the time, so perhaps (hopefully) someone else get to it before me. dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1141125/Litz%20test/SnareEA2503GAR2520.wavdl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1141125/Litz%20test/SnareLITZ2503GAR2520.wavdl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1141125/Litz%20test/SnareEA2503RedDots.wavdl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1141125/Litz%20test/SnareLITZ2503RedDots.wavBtw, this is a one bar snippet so you'll probably better put it in your DAW and loop. |
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Post by Guitar on Jul 23, 2015 15:12:16 GMT -6
I am listening on K702 headphones. I am hearing a very slight bit of natural or open quality with the Litz wire. It's so subtle I feel funny mentioning it, or it could be the difference between the two of them like you said, I don't know. The op amps were even harder to hear a difference between in this test. I guess if I were placing an order, and the Litz transformers were only a few extra bucks, I would probably buy them just for the hell of it. I certainly wouldn't call it "night and day," but I'm surprised that I thought I did hear something. Somewhere out there an audio skeptic is rolling in his grave, and an audiophile is singing hallelujah.
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Post by tonycamphd on Jul 23, 2015 16:01:13 GMT -6
I tested the Litz 2503 in an LC53A tonight. Tested on acoustic, kick and snare. If there's a difference it's really subtle. Perhaps the Litz sounds more open, not sure. Don't hesitate to take a listen and comment. To be able to A/B myself I used two different LC53s, so of course there could be a difference between the two of them, though actually the files cancels out if one is phase reversed. Perhaps I was stupid but I figured I wanted to hear test with the eq engaged so both units were set to rather extreme settings: +10dB peak @7khz, -4dB @ 400Hz and +10dB peak @ 100Hz. While at it, I wanted to test again the LC53As with different op amps, so I went from GAR2520s to Red dots, and again I can't hear any obvious difference, at least not on this snare recording. So for me, silver knobs instead of black still tops this! VP28 next, but not as easy to A/B because it would have to involve either two mics, or two different takes. Not sure when I'll have the time, so perhaps (hopefully) someone else get to it before me. dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1141125/Litz%20test/SnareEA2503GAR2520.wavdl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1141125/Litz%20test/SnareLITZ2503GAR2520.wavdl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1141125/Litz%20test/SnareEA2503RedDots.wavdl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1141125/Litz%20test/SnareLITZ2503RedDots.wavBtw, this is a one bar snippet so you'll probably better put it in your DAW and loop. you rule Paul, but a snare sample? no! an acoustic guitar sample is the ONLY sample imo haha, or at least a voice with some duration to sink into it a bit. |
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Post by unit7 on Jul 23, 2015 18:14:33 GMT -6
I tested the Litz 2503 in an LC53A tonight. Tested on acoustic, kick and snare. If there's a difference it's really subtle. Perhaps the Litz sounds more open, not sure. Don't hesitate to take a listen and comment. To be able to A/B myself I used two different LC53s, so of course there could be a difference between the two of them, though actually the files cancels out if one is phase reversed. Perhaps I was stupid but I figured I wanted to hear test with the eq engaged so both units were set to rather extreme settings: +10dB peak @7khz, -4dB @ 400Hz and +10dB peak @ 100Hz. While at it, I wanted to test again the LC53As with different op amps, so I went from GAR2520s to Red dots, and again I can't hear any obvious difference, at least not on this snare recording. So for me, silver knobs instead of black still tops this! VP28 next, but not as easy to A/B because it would have to involve either two mics, or two different takes. Not sure when I'll have the time, so perhaps (hopefully) someone else get to it before me. dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1141125/Litz%20test/SnareEA2503GAR2520.wavdl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1141125/Litz%20test/SnareLITZ2503GAR2520.wavdl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1141125/Litz%20test/SnareEA2503RedDots.wavdl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1141125/Litz%20test/SnareLITZ2503RedDots.wavBtw, this is a one bar snippet so you'll probably better put it in your DAW and loop. you rule Paul, but a snare sample? no! an acoustic guitar sample is the ONLY sample imo haha, or at least a voice with some duration to sink into it a bit. Tony, yes perhaps corny with a snare! I had an acoustic up too, just something that was on the harddrive currently and didn't sound very good so I didn't want to post it. But I had the same feeling when A/B'ing with it, imo almost unnoticable differences. If I get the time tomorrow I'll see if I can find a better acoustic sample and do the same routine. It's 2.14 and I should be sleeping so good night everybody!  |
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Post by unit7 on Jul 24, 2015 5:54:36 GMT -6
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Post by tonycamphd on Jul 24, 2015 6:38:06 GMT -6
The character of the guitar, mic, room won't change, the take being different will have almost no bearing on the sound quality as long as the performance is close, that's a perfectly useable display to me personally. |
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Post by noah shain on Jul 24, 2015 11:35:27 GMT -6
Channels are on their way to Jeff. I think the plan for now is to replace the API 2520s with red dots, swap stock transformers for the EA/Litz combo and I'm hoping Jeff will sniff around in there and see if he finds any other components or design that he thinks could be improved. My general feeling about the 1608 is that it isn't quite what I expected sonically. It's very robust and very hi-fi but also different from the vintage API consoles I've used. To my ears I feel like there's a pinched or hard sounding thing happening between 2k and 3k somewhere COMPARED to older APIs I've worked on. It's a bit opaque in that area. I know, abstract terms...anyway, a number of people I know have the same general feeling. It's for sure a kick ass piece of gear with which many skilled people have made many great recordings. I'm not putting it down, it rules! It sounds amazing. Better engineers than me are making fantastic sounds with it every day. No offense meant to anyone who owns or uses one. I LOVE the console. But...I have a taste for richer, more saturated sounding stuff and I wanna see if Jeff can inch it toward a more vintage API sound.
Thinking about the stuff in this thread I think it's worth mentioning that I don't expect modding 2 channels will get me all the way back to the 70s. I think maybe sometimes we put too high an expectation on 1 component (transformer, op amp, etc.) to have a dramatic impact on our sounds. I think it takes a lot of small changes to a bigger integrated system to really get us the sounds we're after. Like, thinking that changing an op amp is going to make a BIG change in the way a piece of gear affects a recording may be a bit over simplifying things. My experience tells me that it'll probably take changing ALL the op amps and transformers in the console channels AND the summing sections, maybe the inserts too, and then running signal through the console more than once (meaning mic inputs, bussing, mixing) to start to really hear a significant or over arcing sonic change in the sound of my recordings. I think it's the cumulative effect of multiple trips through multiple well chosen components that will give us a sense of what red dots vs 2520s sounds like or stock xformers vs EAs and Litz wire. Not that you can't tell a difference in a shoot out going through 1 stage, obviously you can, but that when you start using these components in a bigger integrated system, stacking and taking multiple trips around the block you start to hear the real character of stuff.
If I hear a nice subtle difference with these mods I'll continue the process and explore with Jeff the options that he thinks will have a significant impact and we'll try those options. But maybe we'll hear a MASSIVE difference! My mind is not closed to the hope but I'm guessing it'll be subtle.
But I'll be sure to run a number of things through the modded channels and through un-modded channels when they get back and post some stuff here. If I have time ill record AND mix some quick stuff through modded/un-modded as well and see if we don't hear more significant differences as things add up.
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Post by Pueblo Audio on Jul 24, 2015 12:23:52 GMT -6
I am not too sure how beneficial litz wire might be in a pro audio transformer, but its worth an experiment. Nothing tried, nothing gained. Litz wire properties absolutely helps in DEVICES LIKE THIS. Pretty wild. ****edit**** Seeing the Lizt wire reference in this thread made me think of that extreme DX Crystal Radio set. This passive receiver was capable of pulling in a radio signal half a world away while driving a pair of sound-powered headphones from the power of the radio wave itself... ASTONISHING! |
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Post by noah shain on Jul 24, 2015 13:17:28 GMT -6
I am not too sure how beneficial litz wire might be in an audio transformer, but its worth an experiment. Nothing tried nothing gained. Litz wire properties absolutely helps in devices like this one. Pretty wild. Are you referring to the Pueblo devices here? |
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Post by Pueblo Audio on Jul 24, 2015 13:28:28 GMT -6
I am not too sure how beneficial litz wire might be in an audio transformer, but its worth an experiment. Nothing tried nothing gained. Litz wire properties absolutely helps in devices like this one. Pretty wild. Are you referring to the Pueblo devices here? No, no -- apologies. My post was not clear. I edited it to make the link more obvious and add clarity. Kind of off topic, but a fascinating application of litz wire. |
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Post by jsteiger on Jul 24, 2015 13:53:39 GMT -6
Here's a quote from Paul Wolff taken from the dreaded purple site.
"The original output transformers for just about all manufacturers in the "old days" had one thing that was done to them that was unknown by most of the the manufacturers because they never specified it and the winders just always did it. This was a process that used ribbon like wire, where all the 4 windings were wound at the same time, to save money and time. This is why when you take apart an old transformer, it looks so orderly. The funny part is that the laquer used to glue them together turned to powder and no one could figure out why they old transformers sounded good and the new ones had an 80KHz peak. Around 1976, it appears that the ribbon wire either got very expensive or just went away, and since most manufacturers had never specked this, the transformers were from then on wound with the 4 winding from 4 spools of wire. This cause inconsistant wrapping and hence the peak in the HF, which extends into the audio band, making the transformer sound a bit brighter. Around 1997, it was discovered and identified, and the experimenting began, with the result being a type of wire called Litz wire, which is a group of 4 wires twisted together at some interval and then wound around the bobbin. This created the same effect as the ribbon wire and identical results. That is why some of the newer things out there now, finally, sound like the older ones. Many companies discovered this, as Litz wire has been around since WWII and was developed, like everything else, by the Germans. Many mic transformers used the ribbon wire and a lot of them sounded different in the late 70's for the same reason. Like I said, the new ones from API are almost a dead match for the old ones. I would buy them rather than an old one that I wasn't sure about. Always buy in pairs. Profile always made them up 'till a few years ago. Their transformers were also the ones that had the peaks and is the reason they are not making them any longer. The original designers at API didn't just pull it out of their asses either. It took Jeff and I about 9 years to finally figure out the problem with the 1978-on transformers when I owned API. Then another year to get the new ones to sound old again. I was very happy with the results."
FYI, the Jeff he refers to is not me. I think is Jeff Bork whom I believe is still at Automated Processes.
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Post by noah shain on Jul 24, 2015 13:58:04 GMT -6
Here's a quote from Paul Wolff taken from the dreaded purple site. "The original output transformers for just about all manufacturers in the "old days" had one thing that was done to them that was unknown by most of the the manufacturers because they never specified it and the winders just always did it. This was a process that used ribbon like wire, where all the 4 windings were wound at the same time, to save money and time. This is why when you take apart an old transformer, it looks so orderly. The funny part is that the laquer used to glue them together turned to powder and no one could figure out why they old transformers sounded good and the new ones had an 80KHz peak. Around 1976, it appears that the ribbon wire either got very expensive or just went away, and since most manufacturers had never specked this, the transformers were from then on wound with the 4 winding from 4 spools of wire. This cause inconsistant wrapping and hence the peak in the HF, which extends into the audio band, making the transformer sound a bit brighter. Around 1997, it was discovered and identified, and the experimenting began, with the result being a type of wire called Litz wire, which is a group of 4 wires twisted together at some interval and then wound around the bobbin. This created the same effect as the ribbon wire and identical results. That is why some of the newer things out there now, finally, sound like the older ones. Many companies discovered this, as Litz wire has been around since WWII and was developed, like everything else, by the Germans. Many mic transformers used the ribbon wire and a lot of them sounded different in the late 70's for the same reason. Like I said, the new ones from API are almost a dead match for the old ones. I would buy them rather than an old one that I wasn't sure about. Always buy in pairs. Profile always made them up 'till a few years ago. Their transformers were also the ones that had the peaks and is the reason they are not making them any longer. The original designers at API didn't just pull it out of their asses either. It took Jeff and I about 9 years to finally figure out the problem with the 1978-on transformers when I owned API. Then another year to get the new ones to sound old again. I was very happy with the results."Hey Jeff this post makes it seem like API is currently using Litz wire. Is that the case? |
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Post by jsteiger on Jul 24, 2015 14:00:29 GMT -6
Hey Jeff this post makes it seem like API is currently using Litz wire. Is that the case? I do not believe so Noah. The original post by Paul was from a number of years ago. |
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Post by jsteiger on Jul 24, 2015 14:05:44 GMT -6
Hey Jeff this post makes it seem like API is currently using Litz wire. Is that the case? I do not believe so Noah. The original post by Paul was from a number of years ago. In fact, it was from June of 2005. I quoted myself. Is that weird?  |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 24, 2015 14:11:23 GMT -6
I believe that's an infraction.
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Post by jsteiger on Jul 24, 2015 14:17:45 GMT -6
I believe that's an infraction. Crap. That's like my 2nd one in a week. I better be careful 'round hereya |
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Post by noah shain on Jul 24, 2015 14:44:52 GMT -6
I believe that's an infraction. Crap. That's like my 2nd one in a week. I better be careful 'round hereya It's pretty clear he believes the Litz wire has an audible effect and PW mentions an 80khz peak that extends in to the audio spectrum. You think he means it's such a broad curve that it affects the audio all the way down to where we can hear it? |
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