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Post by jazznoise on Feb 25, 2016 19:08:02 GMT -6
Yeah - I get that what IS compressed is compressed no differently than normal, but just to put it simply, if I have the Sidechain HPF set to 250Hz, then my kick should not be getting compressed...I can see that it's getting compressed because when the kick plays, the GR meter moves. Seems to be more prominent on MKI, less on MKII and doesn't happen on III It depends on how the filter is calculated, and the Q of the HPF. I'm not going to condescend about a kick having high freq components, but it's critical to understanding this. This is the bit where I'll bore the shit out of everyone, but bear with me. So the sidechain doesn't see a single sample, it sees a collection of them called a window - a sort of digital capacitor storing a set of values and adding them up. Bass tends to load these because t tends to give us a lot of values above 0, where as HF stuff doesn't. Let's look: So let's say we're sampling @ 44.1 and have a window that is 1000 samples long, and we feed it a transient like this: 0, 1, 0, 0, ..... So after it adds it all up, it has an average of 1/100 = 0.1 and in order for it to trigger the compressor the threshold would have to be set to 0.1 or -20dbFS Now let's say we use my fancy drum machine and it creates a kick drum with a 44.1Hz tone. It makes a click transient, like above, but also has a sinetone about 20dB under. It's normalized to 0dbFS. It goes: 0, 1, 0.02, 0.04 ...... 0.1 So now we have something closer to 2.5/100 =~ 0.25 which would trigger a compressor at a threshold of -12dbFS. So you can see why subtracting LF content with a HPF can change the threshold, and will change when the release occurs. What it can't do is change the window size, and if the window is made bigger it will tend to act more like an RMS compressor but will also react more to bass. Vica versa, small windows tend to react to peaks and over emphasise transient activity.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2016 19:20:07 GMT -6
BTW, i fed an Addictive Drums vintage Fairfax (Cloth on snare ;-)) into this - a lot of high frequency content, also from the kick, when i look at the analyzer...more than i would have expected...and i tried 2 EQs before i was satisfied with the filter quality for such a test before ReaFIR... So it's more real world drum sound, not drum machine "sinus kick" what i used...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2016 19:40:05 GMT -6
Yeah - I get that what IS compressed is compressed no differently than normal, but just to put it simply, if I have the Sidechain HPF set to 250Hz, then my kick should not be getting compressed...I can see that it's getting compressed because when the kick plays, the GR meter moves. Seems to be more prominent on MKI, less on MKII and doesn't happen on III It depends on how the filter is calculated, and the Q of the HPF. I'm not going to condescend about a kick having high freq components, but it's critical to understanding this. This is the bit where I'll bore the shit out of everyone, but bear with me. So the sidechain doesn't see a single sample, it sees a collection of them called a window - a sort of digital capacitor storing a set of values and adding them up. Bass tends to load these because t tends to give us a lot of values above 0, where as HF stuff doesn't. Let's look: So let's say we're sampling @ 44.1 and have a window that is 1000 samples long, and we feed it a transient like this: 0, 1, 0, 0, ..... So after it adds it all up, it has an average of 1/100 = 0.1 and in order for it to trigger the compressor the threshold would have to be set to 0.1 or -20dbFS Now let's say we use my fancy drum machine and it creates a kick drum with a 44.1Hz tone. It makes a click transient, like above, but also has a sinetone about 20dB under. It's normalized to 0dbFS. It goes: 0, 1, 0.02, 0.04 ...... 0.1 So now we have something closer to 2.5/100 =~ 0.25 which would trigger a compressor at a threshold of -12dbFS. So you can see why subtracting LF content with a HPF can change the threshold, and will change when the release occurs. What it can't do is change the window size, and if the window is made bigger it will tend to act more like an RMS compressor but will also react more to bass. Vica versa, small windows tend to react to peaks and over emphasise transient activity. I have an idea of what it looks like, when Johnkenn reads this. :-D
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 25, 2016 19:53:04 GMT -6
Well, I'm not a effing moron...I understand completely that there are frequencies on a kick that reach above that are going to get compressed. But when something claims to have a HP Sidechain, I'd like for it to work like I'd expect it to. MkI doesn't filter the Low signal as much as I want it to. Why the hell would they change behavior on the different models?? I'm using the Sidechain because I want it to NOT compress.
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 25, 2016 19:53:59 GMT -6
Sorry, I'm just a little frustrated because I don't seem to be conveying my issue well.
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Post by jazznoise on Feb 25, 2016 20:09:39 GMT -6
Sorry, I'm just a little frustrated because I don't seem to be conveying my issue well. Sorry, I wasn't trying to condescend. What you're describing could be 2 things: either they changed the filter to a sharper one or they may have altered the window size which would mean the same filter would still give different results. Could even be both. You'd know if it was the window size because the MK1 would feel "quicker" than the other 2, the releases would all be longer and kinda gooey feeling. If the MK1 was supposed to be like that...well, I'm not sure why anyone would want a deliberately shitty sidechain filter. My best advice is go manual and set up some EQ shelve off some low end and then add it back at the other side. Not the smoothest way of working, but it can get you out of a bind.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2016 21:25:07 GMT -6
John, i understand the issue, and yes - it would come handy if things just would do what you expect them to do. Although i did not see the sidechain filter as an essential part i totally understand why it bothers you that it compresses where you don't expect it to compress or with an amount that makes it's usability questionable. It is misleading like it is now, i admit.
Hmm - btw., maybe we should invite Tony Frenzel a.k.a. Klanghelm, which is a one-man-show, as of his "About" webpage, to this board. His products are frequently part of the discussions here and get a lot of rave. I think some of us might have one or the other question regarding his plugins, technical information, support and future of the plugins or planned next products. I think a lot of us have bought his plugins due to the affordability and excellent sound...
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Post by schmalzy on Feb 25, 2016 21:53:11 GMT -6
My first thought was: Do we know the slope of the HP Filter on the comp?
A higher-tuned kick drum can have a lot of 100hz content. If the sidechain HP Filter on the comp is at 250hz but has a 12db/octave slope, a prominent kick centered around at 100hz could still be triggering that thing. Also, I like to do a lot of slow attack and low ratio compression (meaning I have to dig my threshold in pretty far to get significant, gooey compression). How is your threshold set up? Are you trying to limit transients or are you trying to control RMS? Perhaps there's just a lot of low end information and it's simply just sitting above your threshold despite the high pass. If that high-pass is 6db/octave you might never get away from it.
Create a new track with a 70hz sine wave. Gate it to be open when the kick drum hits - 100ms hold and 50ms release maybe (just so it's short but not undetectable). Then, after the gate, stick the Klanghelm vari-mu (limit ratio, fast attack, and fast release) on the sine wave channel. Set the sidechain filter to not leave any frequencies out and set threshold to start compressing a few db. Now, move that filter until it's not acting on the 100hz blips anymore. How high did you have to go? Did it ever stop?
That should tell you exactly what's going on with the comp's sidechain.
Or...if you've got it on the mix buss maybe you've got a pretty prevalent bass instrument and that thing's pushing everything up close to the threshold so, with just a little extra low mids added by the kick, it triggers the compressor.
I'm just spitballing here trying to come up with explanations and possibilities!
Good luck getting it figured out, John! Let us know what happens!
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Post by wreck on Feb 26, 2016 9:30:34 GMT -6
This thing was crashing my session the other night. Lost a hard earned chorus double take. Love the plug but so pissed. PT10 on PC Windows 7. Basically, keep it off all tracks during tracking to be safe although it only hung up my session when I opened it.
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 26, 2016 9:46:04 GMT -6
Sorry - I was an asshole and should infract myself. Lol
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 26, 2016 22:31:39 GMT -6
I ordered it over 4 hours ago, but no email from Klanghelm yet.
I agree with Randge, if only one compressor is useful, its well worth it. Did you guys have to wait that long for the process to happen?
I'm working on a track right now, and I just know that first compressor will be sweet. I already had the Jr. version in my DAW, completely forgot. Can't wait to have the big one and tweak it just a little.
On another note, I've heard so much about the Sta-Level being great to track vocals, and when I've heard tracks done with item, I couldn't be more impressed. I hope to try it myself one day, but man, the Sta style plugs I've heard don't seem to cut it.
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Post by tasteliketape on Feb 26, 2016 22:42:25 GMT -6
Just a hijack but the Lindell 254e is KILLER this an the klanghelm make an awesome pair And to answer Martin yes it took a little while to get the license
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 26, 2016 23:00:03 GMT -6
Think he's in Germany
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 27, 2016 11:23:51 GMT -6
Got it this morning. Installation was so easy, you didn't even know it was done, it was so fast and simple. Why can't other manufacturers do that"
Though it's just preliminary impression, I think I like it better than UAD's LA2A. I'm very glad I got it, thanks John, I might have missed it were it not for your post.
It's really intuitive to use, and the tweaks in the hidden panel are so well done, even small increments are clearly different, so you can make quicker, less anxious decisions.
I tried it this morning on a vocal, and used the 2nd compressor, but like the 1st equally, so I'll try that too later. I don't care for the 3rd compressor on a lead vocal, , maybe it'll be good for mastering..
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 27, 2016 22:27:03 GMT -6
Listening to the bounced wav file of a work track I just did with compressor #2 on the vocal. I often notice the compression is more apparent on the bounce, than when I listen from the DAW.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2016 23:30:01 GMT -6
Tony from Klanghelm is a one-man-show, so it can take a while, i was lucky, i got it in minutes, most probably because we both checked the net that evening in the same timezone... But from all i heard he comes back with the user area pass ASAP and reliably. There is no automatism behind the order system, he sends out the codes manually AFAIK. Be assured, the waiting is worth it.
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Post by henge on Feb 28, 2016 5:25:47 GMT -6
I just invited him here for some answers...hopefully...
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 28, 2016 16:00:39 GMT -6
That would be cool. I enjoyed using the MJUC for the firsts time yesterday, and I'm looking forward to getting more familiar with it. There's something intuitive about it, and I like that you can really hear changes with small movements of the settings in the panel underneath.
Dialing in UAD's LA2A was always either a little too much or not quite enough.
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 28, 2016 18:18:01 GMT -6
I still really like the UAD LA2A's, but use them less than I use the 1176's. But the LA2's and the MJUC stuff are different - one an opto collection, the other Vari Mu. For instance, I wouldn't use the LA2's on drumbus, but would and sometimes do, the MJUC. But now that I mention that, I should try the LA2's on Drumbus! Tradition be damned.
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Post by henge on Feb 29, 2016 8:49:06 GMT -6
Ok, Tony says he'll drop by the forum...
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Post by deehope on Feb 29, 2016 12:01:05 GMT -6
Does anyone have an idea of the attack times on the various models?
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Post by M57 on Feb 29, 2016 13:37:15 GMT -6
That would be cool. I enjoyed using the MJUC for the firsts time yesterday, and I'm looking forward to getting more familiar with it. There's something intuitive about it, and I like that you can really hear changes with small movements of the settings in the panel underneath. Dialing in UAD's LA2A was always either a little too much or not quite enough. I was enjoying my honeymoon with the MJUC and the Buss Driver, but more recently I've been A/Bing them on tracks and busses against Logic's comps, and I'll be damned if more and more I end up going back to the Logic's more transparent comps. Sometimes I just feel dirty when I slap on the MJUC and BD, so I use them sparingly. They bring sooo much color, whereas I find Logic's comps offer a really nice range of subtle shading.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 29, 2016 13:47:24 GMT -6
I told you Logic's compressors are killer ! I actually think they're the best I've heard to date, especially the Red and the DBX. I haven't had much time to compare MJUC to Logic's yet.
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 29, 2016 14:40:38 GMT -6
TBH, I didn't think the Logic 1176's compared with the UAD versions very favorably at all. That's just my opinion...not trying to state fact.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 29, 2016 16:30:18 GMT -6
You could be right John. I only use Logic's compressor on the 2 bus or maybe the vocal. I use the CLA Waves 1176 otherwise. I rarely use UAD's because I run out of dsp power. I'm still back a ways, struggling with a puny Duo.
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