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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 1, 2015 20:50:04 GMT -6
Interesting - I think the MK-U47 JK sounds very similar to the C12 Matachung with the TC cap. The C12 might have a little more bottom and not be quite as detailed (that ain't the word...maybe refined?) in the top...Backwards from what I would think.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2015 20:51:02 GMT -6
I hesitated to make the bet. This second mic sounds amazing. Did not hear it loud enough because it's 3:44AM around here... :-) So i did not hear the noise you now mentioned. But man. This mic sounds great. JK couldn't have more luck. What did he pay for it...? Haha. Money well spent. Robert / winetree, what did you think about the clones when you were recording? I guess you both had a great time....excellent stuff, thanks for making all this, very appreciated...
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Post by Martin John Butler on Mar 1, 2015 21:15:21 GMT -6
So far, every Tim Campbell capsule mic defies the consensus that a C12 is thinner than a U47, they sure sound full bodied to me. I think JK's mic is clearly the best tone here. Congratulations John, Tony, and to all the MK47 owners
John, between the new Martin and the MK47, I'm expecting to hear some really good things from you soon.
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Post by kidvybes on Mar 1, 2015 21:18:24 GMT -6
Interesting - I think the MK-U47 JK sounds very similar to the C12 Matachung with the TC cap. The C12 might have a little more bottom and not be quite as detailed (that ain't the word...maybe refined?) in the top...Backwards from what I would think. ...I am going to be putting a K47-type capsule in one of my MataChung C12 mics, when I test the Heiserman HK47 capsule in my MK-47...should be interesting...both the U47 and C12 employ relatively flat circuits, so theoretically, a capsule swap between them could offer some interesting results...
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Post by kcatthedog on Mar 1, 2015 21:41:03 GMT -6
i have spent the last 2-3 days switching up my 47 and c12 both into the D4
the tube mikes have different outputs levels so i adjust the gain and in my case seem to enjoy opposite pre polarities
i find the c12 may sound more natural precise and the 47 has a sort of refinement or finish or panache in a complimentary way! Its like the b2 of mikes ?
i am wondering if it has something to do with those head basket differences we were just discussing ? The c12 is more open and direct so a cleaner signal path while the 47 head basket affects the frequencies more and then the differences in the mike circuits kick in ?
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Post by tonycamphd on Mar 1, 2015 21:50:56 GMT -6
Interesting - I think the MK-U47 JK sounds very similar to the C12 Matachung with the TC cap. The C12 might have a little more bottom and not be quite as detailed (that ain't the word...maybe refined?) in the top...Backwards from what I would think. Hmmm, where are you listening to this? the C12-1 has elegant freq extension WAY up there, but feels wispy and girly in the middle to upper mids by comparison to a 47, they are quite scooped, and this is probably what gives at least the illusion of more bottom? Your 47 has a ton of heft in the middle to upper mids to my ears, a lot of people mistake 5-10k for highs, they are mids, and the U47 has more of them than a C12, so detailed is probably the right word? Imo what is really stunning about your mic is the amazing buttery warmth on the edges of the transients while still maintaining clarity and presence, the usual trade off for that results in fog, which isn't even close to the case here. I'd suggest to anyone who has or plans on one of these to get some of those rca gold tips asap, they are the quietest and smoothest tubes I have personally heard to date, thank you so much kidvybes for turning us on to these! btw, my fav of C12's in the shootout was C12-1 TC capsule as well(which happens to be my C12), my kickeddog blueline mk47 sounds a bit behind jk's and winetrees, but very close, those 2 are quite a complimentary pair imo. I also agree with what @smallbutfine stated, the BN capsuled stuff didn't hang with the others to my ears, i've had about 15 of those capsules go through my hands, and they are all over the board sonically and mechanically(I say that because it's true), that C12-2 did NOT have anything up top(what C12's are known for). The good news is if you're serious about a beastly mic collection, you don't have to be a millionaire, the circuits are all readily available, you could use a Tim or Siegfried capsule in them, and they'll be great, or you could take them over the moon and back by employing the freakish talents of our pal Sinsay!
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Post by kidvybes on Mar 1, 2015 22:25:32 GMT -6
I'd suggest to anyone who has or plans on one of these to get some of those rca gold tips asap, they are the quietest and smoothest tubes I have personally heard to date, thank you so much kidvybes for turning us on to these! Attachments:
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Post by svart on Mar 1, 2015 23:19:15 GMT -6
I can confirm the C12's sound like C12's. The U47's sound like U47's. Water is also wet. Carry on.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Mar 2, 2015 7:20:10 GMT -6
It looks like fat tubes = fat sound ! Attachments:
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Post by category5 on Mar 2, 2015 8:13:53 GMT -6
I think Winetree needs to go back and do a voice sample on that Vintage. Voice reveals a lot. The main differences between 47-11 and 47-4 (TC's and JK's) are the transformer, tubes, and headbasket. It's interesting that they sound that different.
Best tubes I've tried have been the RCA for their low end warmth, the Western Electrics for their satiny finish, and the Ericsson for the same reason. Cowboy found he liked the Philips better because he doesn't need to high-pass with them as aggressively. Here's the thing, I suspect we are dealing with only 2 variants of tube, made in different factories. The construction of the Western Electric and Ericsson look the same. WE are made in US or Canada (in the case of Northern Electric) while the Ericsson are made in Sweden. Internally they look identical and do have the same character. The RCA, GE, Philips and Sylvania tubes also look the same to each other but I have found them to sound different. My silver pin RCAs definitely have a low end and noise advantage, the Gold Pin Sylvanias Yotonic sent me sound similar but with less fatness, while the GE's and Philips sound pretty much the same (mid forward). All of the tubes I've tried have been relatively quiet from the start except for the temperamental Western Electrics. What's odd is, I bought a lot of 20 of them and so far they have been very well behaved. I think some bad tubes are floating around the market.
Also, in this circuit changing tubes seems to require trimming of the PSU. Simply swapping one set for another can drop or raise the voltage 2-3V. Since we are dealing with the stock U47 circuit, the series heaters in the 408A tubes are getting the 36V meant for the VF14. It works out great because the series tubes each get half of that voltage and no circuit change was required, but half of that is 18V while the 408As are designed to get 20V. It's close enough, but it's possible that some WE tubes don't like to be under-heated, so if the voltage at the PSU rides low perhaps it aggravates the situation more. All of the new batch I have tried, I have trimmed for and found the tubes to be pretty quiet from the start (unusual compared to my previous experience). Herbie also noticed that after switching to the Philips (from RCA) his PSU was riding up above 107V, and after trimming it to 105V he thought there was an audible detriment. I told him to bump it back up since 107 is still within spec.
My conclusion so far (which is dynamic, always changing, and just speculative bull-shit anyway) is that (1) the circuit and tube combination is sensitive to voltage adjustment, (2) you should trim voltage whenever changing tubes, (3) there are probably only two types of 408a, and the differences we hear are due to date and location of manufacture, (4) there are some bum WE 408a tubes floating around on ebay; make sure you get boxed NOS tubes, not loose, (5) all of this may be true today and be completely dis-proven tomorrow, (6) even though Klaus Heyne would passionately disagree, you can get a U47 reproduction with the magic of the U47 in 2015.
As amazing as these 47s are, my favorite mic is still the CT12 equipped C12 with a 50's era GE 5-star 6072. If I had to pick one mic, that'd be it. Of course, I'd probably keep the 47 as a mistress. These are far and away the best 2 mics I've ever used (including my limited experience with vintage mics). I love them both.
Great work TC and Winetree, on the project and on the mics.
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Post by kcatthedog on Mar 2, 2015 8:34:11 GMT -6
@cat5 thx I always read your informative posts with interest. With my one set of noisy WE's would increasing the psu voltage a few volts possibly quiet them ?
I think you have used two different transformers in your C12, the stock ami (which was in this mike test) and the Cinemag (Cinemag CM 13114 - 12:1 ratio transformer for C12 application).
Any comments or preferences ?
thx !
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Post by kidvybes on Mar 2, 2015 9:12:45 GMT -6
...I think it's important to differentiate vintage NOS gold-pinned tubes from the current influx of hyped gold-connector products...clearly in this age of consumer electronics the concept of "gold-plated" has become more of a hyped sales pitch than any specific designation of "higher quality"...50 years ago, though, certain tube manufacturers both in the US and Europe used the gold-pinned format to designate "choice" or "highest quality" production on the consumer packaged product, much in the same way GE used their "5-Star" designation, or Sylvania used their "Gold Label" edition tubes...since most military/industrial variants were manufactured under contract to meet pricepoints, gold-pinned wasn't a necessity, but in the emerging post-war age of consumer electronics (50-60s) when TVs, hi-fi consoles and table-top radios all relied on tube technology, these "higher quality" variants became more commonplace...
...so much as the GE 5-Star tubes are the more sought-after variant of their preamp tubes (when very often the military/industrial variants were the same quality), these vintage NOS "gold-pinned" variants represent in most cases, that particular manufacturer's best retail quality option...
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Post by kcatthedog on Mar 2, 2015 9:23:14 GMT -6
Interesting, you wonder too as the manufacturer's must have know their actual quality of production, didi they have ways to tweak their system to increase the quality or did they just screen after the fact and hand selected the best for the top drawer designations ? Reminds me of the story about Neumann marked deficient tubes/parts returned to the producer coming back to Neumann in later shipments
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Post by kidvybes on Mar 2, 2015 9:29:56 GMT -6
Interesting, you wonder too as the manufacturer's must have know their actual quality of production, didi they have ways to tweak their system to increase the quality or did they just screen after the fact and hand selected the best for the top drawer designations ? Reminds me of the story about Neumann marked deficient tubes/parts returned to the producer coming back to Neumann in later shipments ...more often than not, from what I've observed, there are more-rugged construction factors employed on higher-quality designated tubes (strut supports, getter shields, heavier-grade or different composite materials)...as for these gold-pinned 408A tubes, other than the pins, there is no obvious difference in construction that I've noticed, so it's very possible tubes were screened for performance tolerances...
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Post by category5 on Mar 2, 2015 10:06:46 GMT -6
Interesting, you wonder too as the manufacturer's must have know their actual quality of production, didi they have ways to tweak their system to increase the quality or did they just screen after the fact and hand selected the best for the top drawer designations ? Reminds me of the story about Neumann marked deficient tubes/parts returned to the producer coming back to Neumann in later shipments ...more often than not, from what I've observed, there are more-rugged construction factors employed on higher-quality designated tubes (strut supports, getter shields, heavier-grade or different composite materials)...as for these gold-pinned 408A tubes, other than the pins, there is no obvious difference in construction that I've noticed, so it's very possible tubes were screened for performance tolerances... Well, since the gold pins would have had to be installed during manufacture it's probably safe to say the gold pin tubes weren't binned tubes from regular production offering higher performance. If anything, perhaps tolerances were tighter during those runs, or a greater amount (or higher quality) of filament material was used. It's tough to say because the manufacturing process still would have had a wide tolerance swing. The only way to guarantee a consistently better performing tube would have been to optimize the design (construction changes), or simply throw out tubes that didn't meet the advertised spec. Has anyone found any data sheets on these tubes yet? It may have even been the birth of the "perceived quality" movement created by a new consumer hi-fi market. We will never know. All we can do is compare and see if the differences warrant any price differential. That said, the most coveted of the 408A tubes (pre MK-47) have been the WE and Ericsson. While these do sound excellent in my limited experience there is the noise issue which seems to affect only the WE tubes so far - very odd if it's supposed to be such a high-grade tube. The silver pin RCAs stand out as a great performer though, so i am inclined to think the gold-pin version is as good or better. I haven't had one with an ounce of noise, even before breaking them in either. In all of the mics I have built and delivered, this has been my go-to tube. the WE's sound beautiful, but the potential for noise worries me until I figure out why it happens, and why to only those tubes.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Mar 2, 2015 10:52:28 GMT -6
Hey, tonycamphd or Johnkenn, do you think you guys could moderate this thread so that all the posts that Tony made with the audio samples are in a row at the top of the thread? That way they're all in one place and easy to find? Fantastic work Tony and winetree. Really appreciated.
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Post by tonycamphd on Mar 2, 2015 10:57:33 GMT -6
I watched a couple of videos on tube manufacturing, the process yields a lot of variance, i suspect they used the highest of quality for the internals, and then upon completion they spec tested the tubes and dropped PLACED them in A+ through Failed bins. Back in that day, if something was slated for military use, it had better be spot the F on, if not equipment failed and people died! and back then, people really gave a shit on whole as compared to the ubiquitous "whatever, as long as i get mine" business model of today.
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Post by kidvybes on Mar 2, 2015 11:16:23 GMT -6
Well, since the gold pins would have had to be installed during manufacture it's probably safe to say the gold pin tubes weren't binned tubes from regular production offering higher performance. If anything, perhaps tolerances were tighter during those runs, or a greater amount (or higher quality) of filament material was used. It's tough to say because the manufacturing process still would have had a wide tolerance swing. The only way to guarantee a consistently better performing tube would have been to optimize the design (construction changes), or simply throw out tubes that didn't meet the advertised spec. ...upon closer inspection between this last pair of NOS gold-pinned and a few random standard issue RCA 408A tubes I have on hand, there does seem to be some slight differences in the construction...the plates are slightly different and the horizontal discs are also very slightly different...whether this is just a difference between the particular manufacturing runs or is significant of the quality-control I cannot say...the gold-pinned construction looks to be more perfectly aligned (while the stock tubes are a bit cockeyed) and the gold-pinned also have secondary silver screening designation besides the standard red RCA logo screening which is on both variants...so at least from the samples I have in front of me, there's more visual differentiation than just the pins... ...here's the link to the Radio Museum site which lists manufacturing originated in 1940 and GE, Sylvania, Tung Sol, and WE are designated as the sources for production (RCAs as Cat5 said, were probably manufactured by Sylvania): www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_408a.htmlSylvania data sheet PDF: scottbecker.net/tube/sheets/137/4/408A.pdfEricsson data sheet PDF: frank.pocnet.net/sheets/185/6/6028.pdf
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Post by tonycamphd on Mar 2, 2015 11:16:56 GMT -6
Hey, tonycamphd or Johnkenn, do you think you guys could moderate this thread so that all the posts that Tony made with the audio samples are in a row at the top of the thread? That way they're all in one place and easy to find? Fantastic work Tony and winetree. Really appreciated. You're right, i just checked out my soundcloud page, 506 plays since yesterday! Maybe there is a future in mic shootouts as compared to marketing your own music? lol I'll get everything copied up to the first post at some point today. winetree left me a NV73 and a Hairball Lola for testing, i think i'll blow off work today and track a little acoustic guitar/vox (heaven help u all lol) session today with JK's mic before packing it up for shipping (as much as i didn't think it would hurt my heart to send this off, it actually really does ), i'll spend some time to dial sounds vs the simple 35 1/2" up and 20" out routine of the shootout, plus the added bonus of no sign of the sombitch, rat bastard cricket! 8)
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Post by jcoutu1 on Mar 2, 2015 11:41:42 GMT -6
C12-1= Matachung C-12 Tim Campbell capsule, ami tranny, Christian Whitemore GE 5 star 6072 tube. Hey Tony, Help me out here. Is this this board, with the TC Cap, AMI Tranny, and GE Tube? Alctron body? I imagine that all this stuff needs to be sourced individually? Does modding an Apex with these components get you to the same place? store.studio939.com/product/c12-vintage-microphone-clone-pcb-set
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Post by tonycamphd on Mar 2, 2015 13:07:08 GMT -6
C12-1= Matachung C-12 Tim Campbell capsule, ami tranny, Christian Whitemore GE 5 star 6072 tube. Hey Tony, Help me out here. Is this this board, with the TC Cap, AMI Tranny, and GE Tube? Alctron body? I imagine that all this stuff needs to be sourced individually? Does modding an Apex with these components get you to the same place? store.studio939.com/product/c12-vintage-microphone-clone-pcb-set The matachung C12 kit comes with Eric Heiserman C12 i believe, i've never heard one of his C12 capsules so i cant speak to its sound? I can tell you Eric's a great guy from my few conversations with him, and his K67 capsules that i own sound very good! btw, the link you posted goes nowhere
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Post by kcatthedog on Mar 2, 2015 14:34:24 GMT -6
Just remember Tony as you send your little baby out into the big bad world, she is going to a loving home
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Post by tonycamphd on Mar 2, 2015 14:57:40 GMT -6
Hey, tonycamphd or Johnkenn, do you think you guys could moderate this thread so that all the posts that Tony made with the audio samples are in a row at the top of the thread? That way they're all in one place and easy to find? Fantastic work Tony and winetree. Really appreciated. you're all set in the first post Jes
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Post by Ward on Mar 2, 2015 16:05:11 GMT -6
2 x 408a = VF14M right?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2015 16:34:56 GMT -6
Seems they are. Reasonable and as good enough for the task as it gets...
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