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SDC's.
Mar 11, 2014 16:41:22 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by Johnkenn on Mar 11, 2014 16:41:22 GMT -6
So - let me ask you guys. When I stereo mic my acoustic - most of the time I just play two mono parts and pan - I end up with one bright on the 12th and one dark on the body. I've been soloing them, EQing to taste and then panning opposite for the full stereo effect. Is that the best way to do it? I've been happy with the results. I probably need to spend more time researching mic positioning - but it's usually just me and the headphones don't really reflect what's really going on and I'm too lazy to go back and forth from tracking to listen to every inch I move the mic.
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SDC's.
Mar 11, 2014 16:42:25 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by Johnkenn on Mar 11, 2014 16:42:25 GMT -6
Also - what about the LDC on the twelfth to give more body and the pencil on the body?
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Post by gouge on Mar 11, 2014 18:00:06 GMT -6
I like ldc on the body in Omni. u87 type mic with sdc on the 12th fret for the detail.
indie stuff that's in a mix I just run with the u87 in Omni.
the big thing with acustics and card sdc mics for my mind is giving the mic some space.
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SDC's.
Mar 11, 2014 18:03:32 GMT -6
Post by gouge on Mar 11, 2014 18:03:32 GMT -6
Dan, go for BOTH!! Try an 84 on the 12th fret or so, then put an 87 up and over the R shoulder of the Guitarist from behind, peeking down at the soundhole. Pan L/R. Magic. How do you deal with phase in that scenario? Just make sure they're kind of equal distance - 3:1?
phase issues to me are over rated. if it sounds good then run with it. put up 2 mics, check the balance when placing them then check the phase again on the console by toggling the mute switch of one mic and see what disappears, then flick the mono switch and listen again.
that said, some stuff I use a tape measure during setup.
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Post by gouge on Mar 11, 2014 18:16:04 GMT -6
mind you there is something very intimate about using one mic for an acoustic performance. this track was a stock ntk
https%3A//soundcloud.com/studiogestalt/gestalt-live-acoustic-sessions
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SDC's.
Mar 11, 2014 22:39:56 GMT -6
matt likes this
Post by drbill on Mar 11, 2014 22:39:56 GMT -6
Dan, go for BOTH!! Try an 84 on the 12th fret or so, then put an 87 up and over the R shoulder of the Guitarist from behind, peeking down at the soundhole. Pan L/R. Magic. How do you deal with phase in that scenario? Just make sure they're kind of equal distance - 3:1? As long as you're not using a Taylor, they'll sound great!!!  |
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SDC's.
Mar 11, 2014 22:51:09 GMT -6
Post by Johnkenn on Mar 11, 2014 22:51:09 GMT -6
Tru dat
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Post by grummy on Mar 12, 2014 3:30:03 GMT -6
One larger than life stereo config I like is the jolly modded mk012, or MC012 (same thing) around the 12th fret, and then a Blue Dragon Fly pretty damn close pointed exactly right at bottom far corner where the strumming hand is. Not sure where I read it anymore but I remember reading that pointing right on that front edge is the second "magic spot" (second to the 12th fret). Like a couple inches out. I'm talking about very close miccing. A couple inches away both on the 12th and that bottom corner on the front of the acoustic. I know lots of folks can't stand such a wide stereo image on acoustic, but if you don't have a problem with an insanely huge insanely wide acoustic track you should try it out. To me the over the shoulder technique has almost always paled in comparison. But keep in mind this is far from a realistic acoustic guitar sound. It's crazy massive, intensely detailed, and seriously wide. Also the slightest movement of the player makes a big difference due to proximity effect. I usually only use this technique when playing the track myself, cause I feel like a prison warden asking a musician to be THIS still during a performance.
If we're not talking SDC I'll gladly sub in © my Blue Kiwi for the MK012 on the 12th fret. Or my TLM127. I've also had success with the TLM127 on that bottom corner, but the Dragonfly is my usual go to for that. Partly because of the sound. I get from it, & partly because of how easy it is to aim a dragonfly exactly on the corner. No other WDC is as easy to aim as the DF. Got two and really like them. use them happily for many of the same things I like SDC for. Cool, good sounding, fun mics.
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Post by grummy on Mar 12, 2014 3:34:45 GMT -6
Not sure why or how i accidentally put that copyright symbol in there, but it was unintentional.
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Post by tonycamphd on Mar 12, 2014 7:01:39 GMT -6
What's with the OT bagging on Taylor bitches! 8) I'll put my freshly stripped, red headed buck toothed and freckled, 1993 710 up against any acoustic out there, any time! (Chapelle)"That's right!!!"
But since we're straying so far off the SDC topic... Again,... Try this set up, make sure your room sounds Reasonably good, then take a c12 about 1.5' off the 12th, and a good Q ribbon mic in a M/S set up, get it to sound as close as you THINK u want to the final track (eq wise)with mic placement only, track it. Set up ur 3 channels accordingly, buss them to a stereo sub, and apply any additional eq there( sounds more natural and less phasey than eqing M/S tracks individually, and then bringing them together ime). The ribbon mics high end roll off and smoothness gives a distance/depth that is hard to achieve with eq, and of course the c12 is extended and in your grill, yet in a less transient way than a SDC. The control you get with the S/ ribbon channel is a luxury I love, especially when ur tracking and writing on the fly and unsure of how much stereo image U'll want in the end.
Ymmv, but I hope this helps someone get some cool sounds
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Post by sll on Mar 15, 2014 11:02:01 GMT -6
Yeah - post pics...Does sll have any pics? Here's a couple of the latest instruments I've built. The guitar was something unusual for me considering it has a paint job on the front. Wouldn't have been my choice, but that's what the customer wanted. Was a bit of a nightmare to figure out how to do it and keep the lacquer layers thin enough for good tone. I'll see if I can find some pics of my more traditional guitars. Attachment DeletedAttachment DeletedAttachment DeletedAttachment Deleted |
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Post by sll on Mar 15, 2014 11:48:36 GMT -6
the most overlooked mic out there is the neumann 100 series. the 140 is a cardioid, the 150 hyper. amazing amazing mics, I use mine over an 84 pretty much %100 of the time. These were top line professional mics when neumann had them in production, designed to compete directly with schoeps and the sennheiser mkh series. All three sound very different and all three have their pluses and minuses, the neumann being the most colored of the bunch. If you cant make a good recording with one of these three mics, you arent going to make a good recording with something else. People often overlook the 100's so you can sometimes find them priced very low. The 184's were released as the budget version to the 100 line. Josephson mics are also top notch. I agree. I used to use a pair of KM140's for orchestral recordings. Very smooth and detailed. There's a high end rise, but it's more gradual than the KM184's, which sound harsh to my ears. The kit I used had the capsule extenders and ORTF bar. The capsules were extended from the bodies by long miniature cables. The bodies could be on the floor and capsules in the air. Made a very small footprint above the conductor's head. Between the KM140's, Shoeps CMC-6, and B&K mics, I became very spoiled by nice SDC. I've looked for used KM140's, but there are some differences in sound between the latest made and the older ones. I ended up buying a pair of Gefell M300's. The Gefell's are very close to the KM140's, a little brighter though. I also just bought a pair of Beezneez Lulu's. I need to test them out more, but they are flatter and smoother in the highs than the Gefell's with a little more midrange info to them. I hope to test them against some KM84's just to see how close they are, but they sound damn nice so far. |
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SDC's.
Mar 15, 2014 12:20:34 GMT -6
Post by WKG on Mar 15, 2014 12:20:34 GMT -6
Yeah - post pics...Does sll have any pics? Here's a couple of the latest instruments I've built. The guitar was something unusual for me considering it has a paint job on the front. Wouldn't have been my choice, but that's what the customer wanted. Was a bit of a nightmare to figure out how to do it and keep the lacquer layers thin enough for good tone. I'll see if I can find some pics of my more traditional guitars. Excellent work, very nice. The guitar is unusual, looks like a Nerf top...  |
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SDC's.
Mar 25, 2014 14:51:42 GMT -6
Post by dandeurloo on Mar 25, 2014 14:51:42 GMT -6
The Liebers guitars I have been recording look like guitars should and sound incredible. I can't wait until I get my 000!
BTW, I heard some good mic comparisons from Scott the other day. The Lulu sounded really great.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Mar 25, 2014 15:10:40 GMT -6
The Liebers guitars I have been recording look like guitars should and sound incredible. I can't wait until I get my 000! BTW, I heard some good mic comparisons from Scott the other day. The Lulu sounded really great. My pair of Lulu's came in the mail yesterday. I'm booked with a bunch of live sound gigs this week, so I'm not sure if I'll get to test them before next week, unfortunately. |
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SDC's.
Mar 31, 2014 7:20:25 GMT -6
Post by jazznoise on Mar 31, 2014 7:20:25 GMT -6
RE: Acoustic guitar I tried out a simple ORTF setup yesterday with some cheap SDC's and was pleasantly surprised. I certainly think it accomplished the ambitions most people have of XY on acoustic guitar, but allowed me to be a little further back to get a similar stereo wideness (I say similar because ORTF obviously introduces delays as well as amplitude changes, which does sound different) which made the sound a little more balanced. It's actually probably the only time in 18 months I've opted for stereo with an acoustic guitar, as I'd no intention of double tracking it. From what I remember gouge and I share a similar taste in acoustic guitar sounds, so I'd love to hear what other people think of it as a method! |
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SDC's.
Mar 31, 2014 7:35:16 GMT -6
Post by matt on Mar 31, 2014 7:35:16 GMT -6
I am using a pair of Beyer MC930s configured in X-Y on acoustic guitar and mandolin. Setting them up this way mostly so I don't have to deal with phase issues. I like the results so far. Gonna be experimenting with how to handle the tracks at mix - that is, whether to spread the guitars out or collapse them to mono, or somewhere in between. Not sure yet, gotta get good performances first.
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SDC's.
Mar 31, 2014 7:52:56 GMT -6
matt likes this
Post by jazznoise on Mar 31, 2014 7:52:56 GMT -6
I am using a pair of Beyer MC930s configured in X-Y on acoustic guitar and mandolin. Setting them up this way mostly so I don't have to deal with phase issues. I like the results so far. Gonna be experimenting with how to handle the tracks at mix - that is, whether to spread the guitars out or collapse them to mono, or somewhere in between. Not sure yet, gotta get good performances first. Nice mics! I once got a session with 12 tracks of acoustic guitar, all X-Y'd. Only about 2 of them were left in stereo, for the rest I just picked my favorite of the 2 mics and deleted the other. I'm always wary of stereo mic techniques unless I know we have a specific soundstage in mind/it just sounds really cool. Also, great clip here of an ORTF setup on acoustic guitar with some KM 84's, sounds f**king mighty: www.gearslutz.com/board/attachments/low-end-theory/143941d1258074588-ortf-acoustic-guitar-shade-hallows-mix-7-26-09.mp3 |
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SDC's.
Mar 31, 2014 8:05:31 GMT -6
Post by svart on Mar 31, 2014 8:05:31 GMT -6
I always do stereo on acoustic. I just always like the way it fills in the soundstage with other instruments like that. I do a wide stereo with SDCs, one just below the bridge, facing in towards the picking hand. The other mic is around the 12th fret facing in towards the picking hand. Both mics are back about 8 inches from the guitar because I want tons of articulation and less room. Acoustic has a habit of getting boomy when moving the mics back, right up to the point where the room sound becomes too much and then everything turns to mush.
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SDC's.
Mar 31, 2014 9:02:35 GMT -6
Post by matt on Mar 31, 2014 9:02:35 GMT -6
I am using a pair of Beyer MC930s configured in X-Y on acoustic guitar and mandolin. Setting them up this way mostly so I don't have to deal with phase issues. I like the results so far. Gonna be experimenting with how to handle the tracks at mix - that is, whether to spread the guitars out or collapse them to mono, or somewhere in between. Not sure yet, gotta get good performances first. Nice mics! I once got a session with 12 tracks of acoustic guitar, all X-Y'd. Only about 2 of them were left in stereo, for the rest I just picked my favorite of the 2 mics and deleted the other. I'm always wary of stereo mic techniques unless I know we have a specific soundstage in mind/it just sounds really cool. Also, great clip here of an ORTF setup on acoustic guitar with some KM 84's, sounds f**king mighty: www.gearslutz.com/board/attachments/low-end-theory/143941d1258074588-ortf-acoustic-guitar-shade-hallows-mix-7-26-09.mp3Love the sound and the playing! Those KM84s sound really really good. |
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Post by nico on Mar 31, 2014 9:48:15 GMT -6
Hi people, we had a recording 3 month ago at the studio of a contemporary suite for string quartet, the recording guy came with his own mics, including a matched pair of recent Oktava MK-012 and a high end pair of a well known brand. Both pairs were set up as spaced omnis facing the quartet at approx 160cm height ( the Oktavas being 3 cm lower on the same mic stand ). All 4 tracks recorded through old Neumann micpres with carefully matched levels. When the recording was done, we had a little listening comparison, and at first we thought we could pick up the Oktavas because they were a little thinner sounding....turns out it wasn't the Oktavas...by applying a gentle 1.5 dB cut in the lowmids on them, we were three mixers and the composer in the room ( listening in a carefully tuned room with soffit mounted ATC ASL110 pros ) and could not hear a difference substantial enough to guess which was what. Tried on ppp legato part, dissonant wide range Bartok pizz part, and one with varying registers and nuances. I won't name the high end brand, as I don't want to diss them. This is not an "anti-highend" answer, but rather a "pro-Oktava" one  The day after, we ordered a matched pair with the cardio and omni capsules, for an insanely cheap amount of money. They have seen use since then on : funk drums OH, jazz drums OH, rock/pop drums OH, freejazz/noise drums OH, stereo room mics ( for full band to solo acoustic guitar room mics ), another string quartet for a singersongwriter album, backing vocals ensemble, individual vocal mics ( lead and backing ), jazz piano ( Steinway ).congas, bongos, and weird percussion setup...and we had a few clients not believing being recorded on them...zero complaints so far. As a matter of fact I like them a lot. Looking at the oktava shop, they offer more modular options than is generally known ( M/S clever system, large diaphragm capsules, even a new tube body with PSU & more ) I understand that QC might have been an issue in last years, but things seem to have improved pretty nice. Another nice fact: the region in Russia in which these are produced has a long ( centuries long ) tradition with metalworks...so before discarding them too fast, nice info to know for soundpeeps who pay a little attention to craftsmanship On another note : anyone heard or used the new Pelusos already? regards, Nico |
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SDC's.
Mar 31, 2014 10:02:37 GMT -6
Post by svart on Mar 31, 2014 10:02:37 GMT -6
I ALWAYS use my Oktavas on acoustic even though I have plenty of others to choose from. They always work, especially now that guitars and strings are being made to be brighter sounding. These give more body and also have a nice sheen over the sound to keep the *zing* of too-bright strings down to a manageable level.
They are also much darker and thicker sounding than other SDCs.. not sure why anyone would think they were "thin" sounding.. if anything I almost always have to cut low mids on them more than something like my KM184s.. Although the KM184 have vastly superior transient response. The Oktavas can be considered "slow" sounding.
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SDC's.
Apr 1, 2014 8:54:43 GMT -6
Post by nico on Apr 1, 2014 8:54:43 GMT -6
Hi Svart, I am not sure I understand what you mean with "slow" sounding?
In the recording we did with the string quartet, and the listening test ( with a very high end pair and the Oktava's fyi so no need to reread my post) we specifically listened to a part with Bartok pizzicato, which is a one of the biggest transients you can get out of a string instrument, ie method of playing involving plucking a string with much more force than a traditional pizz.
On these parts even we could'nt hear a significant difference (without knowing which one was which)
Or is there something specific to listen for when looking for slow response?
Thanks for your input, regards, Nico
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SDC's.
Apr 1, 2014 9:07:05 GMT -6
Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 1, 2014 9:07:05 GMT -6
I think I just like Neumann's. I did a could of tracks with a friend's KM84's two weeks ago for cowboy's song for Daniel, and loved them. The KM184's are a little lighter in the low end, but do have the same basic tone quality. That track you posted Jazznoise was excellent, a great example of a very good acoustic sound using two mics. I gotta learn how to do that better. For the tracks I did, I kept only a mono track instead of using both.
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Post by dandeurloo on Apr 1, 2014 9:29:11 GMT -6
The Liebers guitars I have been recording look like guitars should and sound incredible. I can't wait until I get my 000! BTW, I heard some good mic comparisons from Scott the other day. The Lulu sounded really great. My pair of Lulu's came in the mail yesterday. I'm booked with a bunch of live sound gigs this week, so I'm not sure if I'll get to test them before next week, unfortunately. I left one of my KM84's with Scott. I think he may try and do a little comparison between them. Maybe he will post here about it when he gets time to do it. |
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