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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2023 10:48:13 GMT -6
I mainly use L1 to manage peaks in vocals, like CLA does. I've tried to move away from it to the stuff that Dan recommends (TDR limiter, etc) and DMG TrackLimit, but nothing sounds quite like it. I'm pretty sure it's a simple algorithm full of aliasing, but it does make a vocal cut better l and stay present without artifacts, when set appropriately. Has anyone found something like L1? L1 does not limit peaks. It physically cannot even detect anything close to them. It is a primitive digital maximizer with normalization, leveling, and a “limiter”. Your peaks will get louder from the over and undershoot of it operating on just the pcm samples and eventually will get clipped off. You’re better off just using distortion, even primitive digital bit crushers like old samplers, and then functional modern digital dynamics processors or pretty much any faster analog gear to control the signal. |
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Post by drbill on Mar 27, 2023 10:50:47 GMT -6
But PT did indeed create a subscription model.. And got pushed back on and decided to keep perpetual for a while.. But it'll eventually move over to subscription-only in the next few years. I would bet on it. That's what I'm saying, PT created a subscription model, and has tried and failed over and over and over again to force it on everyone. I'm not certain how long it's been since they first announced they were going subscription only but it feels like it's been about 10 years. And I don't know how many times I've heard that it's the last time PT is offering perpetual licenses just to find out a year later that yet again they are offering perpetual licenses. So going subscription only hasn't happened for them despite their best efforts, and they have a much stickier customer base than any plugin company. This is it exactly. They (AVID) have tried. Hard. And failed. The community is not on board, and it's the community that supports the company. Waves may find themselves in the same boat. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2023 10:52:35 GMT -6
LOL Waves sub only. Over-playing an already weak hand in my view. I don't know, maybe there are like a bunch of die hard Waves fans out there? Presumably someone in the Waves organization has a handle on who is buying/using their plugins and has thought this through. I feel like the only kind of Waves customer I know of anymore is the person who occasionally buys something for $29, never WUPs, and then maybe buys something else for $29 a Black Friday or two down the road. The whole company going sub only feels like a lot of water to try and squeeze from that stone. A pretty crazy move from people who haven’t released anything novel since the 2000s and their processors sound like it. It’s not the 2000s anymore when the Renaissance plugs were some of the only clean tools that could run natively on your cpu. |
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Post by drbill on Mar 27, 2023 10:55:25 GMT -6
Meanwhile, UAD is openly elated about this and Softube is currently running an ad over at GS that reads "Invest in professional plugins that you'll own forever." All their competitors are licking their chops, and rightfully so. Ha. I was about to post the same thing. That Softube ad seems to pop up at the top of every page in that Waves thread over on GS. View AttachmentWait....you guys go to GS?!?!?!?!?!?!?  |
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 27, 2023 11:02:03 GMT -6
I mainly use L1 to manage peaks in vocals, like CLA does. I've tried to move away from it to the stuff that Dan recommends (TDR limiter, etc) and DMG TrackLimit, but nothing sounds quite like it. I'm pretty sure it's a simple algorithm full of aliasing, but it does make a vocal cut better l and stay present without artifacts, when set appropriately. Has anyone found something like L1? Pro Tools comes with a limiter called Maxim (i think) that I've used on vocals from time to time. Of course if you're not a PT user... Fuggin pissed about this. Would have been mostly ok with it if they had given more than 4 days notice. And really they switched over a day earlier than they said so just screwed all around. I need an LA3a plugin now and La2a plugin. And SSL EQ. Unfreaking believable how they went about this. If you're not looking for the whole SSL channel strip, the Sonimus StonEQ4k is really cool. the PA Opto pedal (and I assume the full sized) is kinda La3a like. Thanks. I've been eyeing the PA SSL channel strips too since they are HDX DSP which I run. Will check that out. Fuggin pissed about this. Would have been mostly ok with it if they had given more than 4 days notice. And really they switched over a day earlier than they said so just screwed all around. I need an LA3a plugin now and La2a plugin. And SSL EQ. Unfreaking believable how they went about this. About the closest thing we got to a warning was that cryptic email we got a couple of weeks back that said you had to have all dealer-purchased plugins registered by the 26th, due to upcoming licensing changes or some such verbiage. When I saw that email, I sort of thought something was up, but I wasn't sure what it might be. Now I know. Anyway, yeah, I agree, an official announcement that they were going full subscription, along with a corresponding window of time for everyone to be given an opportunity to readjust, would have been the right thing to do. Yeah like I said, if they had gone about this in a more professional manner, I'd probably be okay with it. But the rug pull style was absolutely BS. I can't believe they green lit this "roll out". Meanwhile, UAD is openly elated about this and Softube is currently running an ad over at GS that reads "Invest in professional plugins that you'll own forever." All their competitors are licking their chops, and rightfully so. HAHA that awesome. I am for the first time EVER actually looking at UAD plugins especially now that they have a lot of Native options. If the LA3A was native, i'd probably get the 1176, LA2A, LA3A and Capitol Chambers today. LOL Waves sub only. Over-playing an already weak hand in my view. I don't know, maybe there are like a bunch of die hard Waves fans out there? Presumably someone in the Waves organization has a handle on who is buying/using their plugins and has thought this through. I feel like the only kind of Waves customer I know of anymore is the person who occasionally buys something for $29, never WUPs, and then maybe buys something else for $29 a Black Friday or two down the road. The whole company going sub only feels like a lot of water to try and squeeze from that stone. A pretty crazy move from people who haven’t released anything novel since the 2000s and their processors sound like it. It’s not the 2000s anymore when the Renaissance plugs were some of the only clean tools that could run natively on your cpu. Normally I'd agree. But the Clarity VX pro plugin is actually amazingly good for noise reduction. Very heavy use in Post production world and is the only plugin I'm seeing Post mixers really be sad about as they try to find alternatives. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2023 11:16:52 GMT -6
The people who gain the most from this are the DAW manufacturers. This is a ever growing opportunity for Cubase, Logic, S1, Harrison Mix Bus etc to make better plugins and unique tools. I already have zero problem using mostly stock Cubase plugins. I just did a mix yesterday in PT using only stock plugins, sounded fine. The DAWs are already slowly adding their own versions of auto tune, isotop type spectral repair and other tools that used to be really unique. The only place I feel that DAWs are really lacking at this point are reverbs and delays. That’s one place where I still use 3rd party plugins. But how long till they develop some better verbs? Or just buy a plug-in manufacturer for their verb code? I’d gladly pay a subscription to Cubase/PT/Logic etc if that was the ONLY thing I needed. I think that’s the real future Almost every stock processor in most DAWs is terrible vs what you can buy separately. Including eqs, dynamics, and effects. Ableton had Andrew Simper from Cytomic write their EQ8 and licensed the glue at only 2x oversampling so those are the best processors in any daw. ReaLimit is also better than older limiters but that’s not really saying anything when you’re cleaner than L2. |
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Post by paulcheeba on Mar 27, 2023 11:44:33 GMT -6
I love it that we're tied into never ending subscriptions when we're not making much money making music. I have huge amounts of waves plugs I've kept up to date for old times sake I guess.
Let's face it they don't sound any good compared to the top companies. I'll just ditch them if they try and take mine away. Stick with the odd boutique plug here and there. I'd like a refund though.
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Post by bossanova on Mar 27, 2023 11:45:10 GMT -6
People are talking about this everywhere and one common complaint I see is the “Waves doesn’t care about me - the customer whose spent thousands on plugins. They’re going to lose all their customers.” The guy willing to spend thousands of dollars on a plug-in suite doesn’t really exist anymore… and clearly isn’t their target customer anymore. Waves has been struggling to find their market for years now. The advantage that waves does have is their vast library of effects. Problem is - only a handful are really worth a damn - and to sell $29 plugins here and there is a far less sustainable business model. Waves plugins are among the most pirated software on the internet. How many bedroom producers rocking a Scarlett solo already have these plugins installed - without giving waves a dime? To actually buy all the waves plugins would be completely out of reach - but $15 or $25 a month is worth not risking malware on your precious machine. I’m sure they knew the backlash they were going to get by doing this - but at the end of the day the amount of money they’ll be pulling in is likely all they care about. There’s nothing they make that I can’t live without. Not sure when it happened but at some point they went from releasing must have tools - to mostly cheesy throwaways. This is where I disagree, just because I used to (regrettably) be one of them over 10 years ago. If you’re at the level where you’re pirating the whole Waves bundle, chances are you’re not paying for anything. Those users weren’t going to be customers to begin with. If you weren’t going to drop $300 in a year for the 10 Waves plugs you actually use (or even $150 for 5) then you’re probably not going to pay $150-250 every year for the foreseeable future. I think Waves may have miscalculated if they were betting on converting pirates, because the converted ones who (eventually) paid for their tools *raises hand* and invested hundreds in legit software purchases from Waves are the ones who have been alienated now. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2023 11:59:42 GMT -6
Pro Tools comes with a limiter called Maxim (i think) that I've used on vocals from time to time. Of course if you're not a PT user... If you're not looking for the whole SSL channel strip, the Sonimus StonEQ4k is really cool. the PA Opto pedal (and I assume the full sized) is kinda La3a like. Thanks. I've been eyeing the PA SSL channel strips too since they are HDX DSP which I run. Will check that out. About the closest thing we got to a warning was that cryptic email we got a couple of weeks back that said you had to have all dealer-purchased plugins registered by the 26th, due to upcoming licensing changes or some such verbiage. When I saw that email, I sort of thought something was up, but I wasn't sure what it might be. Now I know. Anyway, yeah, I agree, an official announcement that they were going full subscription, along with a corresponding window of time for everyone to be given an opportunity to readjust, would have been the right thing to do. Yeah like I said, if they had gone about this in a more professional manner, I'd probably be okay with it. But the rug pull style was absolutely BS. I can't believe they green lit this "roll out". Meanwhile, UAD is openly elated about this and Softube is currently running an ad over at GS that reads "Invest in professional plugins that you'll own forever." All their competitors are licking their chops, and rightfully so. HAHA that awesome. I am for the first time EVER actually looking at UAD plugins especially now that they have a lot of Native options. If the LA3A was native, i'd probably get the 1176, LA2A, LA3A and Capitol Chambers today. A pretty crazy move from people who haven’t released anything novel since the 2000s and their processors sound like it. It’s not the 2000s anymore when the Renaissance plugs were some of the only clean tools that could run natively on your cpu. Normally I'd agree. But the Clarity VX pro plugin is actually amazingly good for noise reduction. Very heavy use in Post production world and is the only plugin I'm seeing Post mixers really be sad about as they try to find alternatives. It’s just trapped behind a paywall and isn’t worth 260 a year vs buying Izotope or Acon |
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Post by Quint on Mar 27, 2023 12:45:54 GMT -6
Pro Tools comes with a limiter called Maxim (i think) that I've used on vocals from time to time. Of course if you're not a PT user... If you're not looking for the whole SSL channel strip, the Sonimus StonEQ4k is really cool. the PA Opto pedal (and I assume the full sized) is kinda La3a like. Thanks. I've been eyeing the PA SSL channel strips too since they are HDX DSP which I run. Will check that out. About the closest thing we got to a warning was that cryptic email we got a couple of weeks back that said you had to have all dealer-purchased plugins registered by the 26th, due to upcoming licensing changes or some such verbiage. When I saw that email, I sort of thought something was up, but I wasn't sure what it might be. Now I know. Anyway, yeah, I agree, an official announcement that they were going full subscription, along with a corresponding window of time for everyone to be given an opportunity to readjust, would have been the right thing to do. Yeah like I said, if they had gone about this in a more professional manner, I'd probably be okay with it. But the rug pull style was absolutely BS. I can't believe they green lit this "roll out". Meanwhile, UAD is openly elated about this and Softube is currently running an ad over at GS that reads "Invest in professional plugins that you'll own forever." All their competitors are licking their chops, and rightfully so. HAHA that awesome. I am for the first time EVER actually looking at UAD plugins especially now that they have a lot of Native options. If the LA3A was native, i'd probably get the 1176, LA2A, LA3A and Capitol Chambers today. A pretty crazy move from people who haven’t released anything novel since the 2000s and their processors sound like it. It’s not the 2000s anymore when the Renaissance plugs were some of the only clean tools that could run natively on your cpu. Normally I'd agree. But the Clarity VX pro plugin is actually amazingly good for noise reduction. Very heavy use in Post production world and is the only plugin I'm seeing Post mixers really be sad about as they try to find alternatives. Since you said you were looking at UAD, you might want to check out the C-Suite C-Vox and C-Axe if you're looking for noise removal plugins. Edit: Oh, wait, they're DSP only, at least for now. I suppose they might go native too, eventually. If this matters? You mentioned looking at native. |
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Post by drumsound on Mar 27, 2023 13:08:58 GMT -6
Thanks. I've been eyeing the PA SSL channel strips too since they are HDX DSP which I run. Will check that out. Yeah like I said, if they had gone about this in a more professional manner, I'd probably be okay with it. But the rug pull style was absolutely BS. I can't believe they green lit this "roll out". HAHA that awesome. I am for the first time EVER actually looking at UAD plugins especially now that they have a lot of Native options. If the LA3A was native, i'd probably get the 1176, LA2A, LA3A and Capitol Chambers today. Normally I'd agree. But the Clarity VX pro plugin is actually amazingly good for noise reduction. Very heavy use in Post production world and is the only plugin I'm seeing Post mixers really be sad about as they try to find alternatives. Since you said you were looking at UAD, you might want to check out the C-Suite C-Vox and C-Axe if you're looking for noise removal plugins. Edit: Oh, wait, they're DSP only, at least for now. I suppose they might go native too, eventually. If this matters? You mentioned looking at native. Have you used C-Axe? I've got some noisy guitar tracks on a record I'll be mixing soon. I don't want to spend that money, but the videos make it seem better than RX stuff I have. |
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Post by Quint on Mar 27, 2023 13:22:15 GMT -6
Since you said you were looking at UAD, you might want to check out the C-Suite C-Vox and C-Axe if you're looking for noise removal plugins. Edit: Oh, wait, they're DSP only, at least for now. I suppose they might go native too, eventually. If this matters? You mentioned looking at native. Have you used C-Axe? I've got some noisy guitar tracks on a record I'll be mixing soon. I don't want to spend that money, but the videos make it seem better than RX stuff I have. I haven't yet. But I've heard good things. It seems to be a bit of a one trick pony, from what I've read, but I've also read that it does that trick really well, which is removing guitar amp buzz/hums or other similar kinds of sounds. C-Vox seems to be the more wide ranging plugin for things like AC noise, airplanes, etc. |
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 27, 2023 13:27:08 GMT -6
Thanks. I've been eyeing the PA SSL channel strips too since they are HDX DSP which I run. Will check that out. Yeah like I said, if they had gone about this in a more professional manner, I'd probably be okay with it. But the rug pull style was absolutely BS. I can't believe they green lit this "roll out". HAHA that awesome. I am for the first time EVER actually looking at UAD plugins especially now that they have a lot of Native options. If the LA3A was native, i'd probably get the 1176, LA2A, LA3A and Capitol Chambers today. Normally I'd agree. But the Clarity VX pro plugin is actually amazingly good for noise reduction. Very heavy use in Post production world and is the only plugin I'm seeing Post mixers really be sad about as they try to find alternatives. Since you said you were looking at UAD, you might want to check out the C-Suite C-Vox and C-Axe if you're looking for noise removal plugins. Edit: Oh, wait, they're DSP only, at least for now. I suppose they might go native too, eventually. If this matters? You mentioned looking at native. yeah native only. I'm not going to buy plugin's that require hardware. Might as well buy hardware IMO at that point. I work between two studio's too often to do that. At least my DSP AAX stuff for HDX works natively or DSP as needed. Thankfully UAD is finally doing that and so I might actually finally give them some money. |
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 27, 2023 13:27:45 GMT -6
Since you said you were looking at UAD, you might want to check out the C-Suite C-Vox and C-Axe if you're looking for noise removal plugins. Edit: Oh, wait, they're DSP only, at least for now. I suppose they might go native too, eventually. If this matters? You mentioned looking at native. Have you used C-Axe? I've got some noisy guitar tracks on a record I'll be mixing soon. I don't want to spend that money, but the videos make it seem better than RX stuff I have. Which RX tool are you trying? I've removed guitar noise with excellent results with RX. |
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Post by Tbone81 on Mar 27, 2023 13:28:16 GMT -6
The people who gain the most from this are the DAW manufacturers. This is a ever growing opportunity for Cubase, Logic, S1, Harrison Mix Bus etc to make better plugins and unique tools. I already have zero problem using mostly stock Cubase plugins. I just did a mix yesterday in PT using only stock plugins, sounded fine. The DAWs are already slowly adding their own versions of auto tune, isotop type spectral repair and other tools that used to be really unique. The only place I feel that DAWs are really lacking at this point are reverbs and delays. That’s one place where I still use 3rd party plugins. But how long till they develop some better verbs? Or just buy a plug-in manufacturer for their verb code? I’d gladly pay a subscription to Cubase/PT/Logic etc if that was the ONLY thing I needed. I think that’s the real future Almost every stock processor in most DAWs is terrible vs what you can buy separately. Including eqs, dynamics, and effects. Ableton had Andrew Simper from Cytomic write their EQ8 and licensed the glue at only 2x oversampling so those are the best processors in any daw. ReaLimit is also better than older limiters but that’s not really saying anything when you’re cleaner than L2. For the most part all the stock plugs I’ve used sound just fine. Yes there are 3rd party plugins I prefer in every category but “Terrible”? No, not even by comparison. At least not for 80% of the stock plugins in Cubase, logic, S1, and PT (don’t have much experience in daws other than those). I couldn’t care less about the coding, aliasing or oversamplying. I just care if the plugins work, sound good and don’t take a huge cpu hit. |
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Post by Quint on Mar 27, 2023 13:45:48 GMT -6
That GS thread is already up over 25 pages, and that announcement was barely made yesterday. It's being nearly universally panned. There's a lot of negativity going on in response to this.
Here's looking at you UA, in case you guys were ever considering doing something like this in the future. Please don't.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Mar 27, 2023 14:04:08 GMT -6
I totally get why a lot of people are very pi**ed about this. But I just checked and it’s a rolling sub. Cancel anytime. So …. this might actually suits my workflow. I no longer take on any client based recording and mixing, I only put out my own music. I work on a writing, arranging, recording, mixing cycle. So for the two months I’m mixing a new album I can spend $50 and get access to the entire Waves catalog (which previously I couldn’t afford) then when I’m writing, arranging and out performing I’m not paying for something I’m not using. I archive my files both with and without processing so I’m ok on that front - I’m sat here thinking this new approach is actually going to suit me nicely. Though looks like I might end up being their only customer LOL !! Subs are great for the least invested client and completely fuck over the well invested client, who asks why did I bother buying into the previous model. The company is really saying we care about certain customers, not others: hey thx for your business now we are going to give you the business! Perhaps this was their only option to keep the doors open. $29 plugins aren’t bringing in enough money any more so they need to lift and shift to a different model to try staying in business. This may actually be the best move for current users who want to use waves. Without the sub model, the company could be gone all together. That said, I’m not subscribing. See ya Waves!! |
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Post by christopher on Mar 27, 2023 14:07:11 GMT -6
Their HQ are in Tel Aviv, being owned by wealthy class they clearly decided to make a statement
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 27, 2023 15:53:05 GMT -6
I wouldn't be terribly surprised if they'd been planning this for the past 2-3 years. Maybe even around the time they started all the $29 plugin "deals". Get a bunch of people to buy $29 plugins one (or two or three) at a time, and then after a couple years, go all subscription. It's your basic drug dealer situation. First hit is free.
The whole thing is appalling to me, and quite simply, very unprofessional.
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 27, 2023 16:02:36 GMT -6
It's also interesting to me that the plugins I'm thinking about how best to replace are (as @tomegatherion said) the old ones. I almost feel ridiculous typing this out, but I actually still liked RVox, RAxx, Renn DeEsser, Doubler, SuperTap, and H-Delay. All of those are old plugins, and all except H-Delay were from the first Waves package I bought 20yrs ago: the Musician's 2 Bundle. Blackdawg is right about Vx Clarity Pro - that's a really really good one for post guys. I have RX and Acon, but Vx Clarity Pro was pretty special. Fortunately for me Final Cut added their own native voice isolation about a year ago that is not just surprisingly good, it is surprisingly great. I'm going to miss Sibilance, too. That was a really good DeEsser. But man, I loved the simple UI on RVox and RAxx. Those were like automatic quick and easy - and sounded good with virtually no aliasing. |
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Post by bossanova on Mar 27, 2023 16:11:52 GMT -6
It's also interesting to me that the plugins I'm thinking about how best to replace are (as @tomegatherion said) the old ones. I almost feel ridiculous typing this out, but I actually still liked RVox, RAxx, Renn DeEsser, Doubler, SuperTap, and H-Delay. All of those are old plugins, and all except H-Delay were from the first Waves package I bought 20yrs ago: the Musician's 2 Bundle. Blackdawg is right about Vx Clarity Pro - that's a really really good one for post guys. I have RX and Acon, but Vx Clarity Pro was pretty special. Fortunately for me Final Cut added their own native voice isolation about a year ago that is not just surprisingly good, it is surprisingly great. I'm going to miss Sibilance, too. That was a really good DeEsser. But man, I loved the simple UI on RVox and RAxx. Those were like automatic quick and easy - and sounded good with virtually no aliasing. Re: Raxxe and RVox, same here. The extreme GR you could get from those with no aliasing, even at 0 attack (the fixed rate for RVox) is not something I’ve found elsewhere, even from much more recent software. |
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 27, 2023 16:18:22 GMT -6
It's also interesting to me that the plugins I'm thinking about how best to replace are (as @tomegatherion said) the old ones. I almost feel ridiculous typing this out, but I actually still liked RVox, RAxx, Renn DeEsser, Doubler, SuperTap, and H-Delay. All of those are old plugins, and all except H-Delay were from the first Waves package I bought 20yrs ago: the Musician's 2 Bundle. Blackdawg is right about Vx Clarity Pro - that's a really really good one for post guys. I have RX and Acon, but Vx Clarity Pro was pretty special. Fortunately for me Final Cut added their own native voice isolation about a year ago that is not just surprisingly good, it is surprisingly great. I'm going to miss Sibilance, too. That was a really good DeEsser. But man, I loved the simple UI on RVox and RAxx. Those were like automatic quick and easy - and sounded good with virtually no aliasing. Re: Raxxe and RVox, same here. The extreme GR you could get from those with no aliasing, even at 0 attack (the fixed rate for RVox) is not something I’ve found elsewhere, even from much more recent software. RVox was really good as one part of a 2-stage compression scheme, and nothing I've ever seen was as fast and easy. |
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 27, 2023 16:22:04 GMT -6
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Post by drumsound on Mar 27, 2023 17:01:08 GMT -6
Have you used C-Axe? I've got some noisy guitar tracks on a record I'll be mixing soon. I don't want to spend that money, but the videos make it seem better than RX stuff I have. Which RX tool are you trying? I've removed guitar noise with excellent results with RX. I started with the most basic suite, which was good at removing noise, but often took highs with it. I did got for an upgrade when I put the new system together, and I haven't dived in very far TBH. I did pull one of them up the other day and it did seem pretty effective. I believe it was GTR centric, which is where my problems tend to lie, being I only have an amp that is newer than about 20 years old, and at least one that is older than me. |
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Post by sam on Mar 27, 2023 17:54:39 GMT -6
It’s a painfully silly move to brick people and prevent them from updating their plugins unless they subscribe. Especially because whether or not you agree, the last few Waves releases have been on par with some of the best sounding modern plugins.
When companies make moves like this, it’s usually a tier’d strategy. There is a very real chance that a massive update to their back catalog is coming out soon a la SSL EV2 style. That upsets me the most because I would love a more accurate 1176 and now it’s stuck behind a sub paywall.
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