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Post by svart on Mar 27, 2023 7:20:20 GMT -6
Anyway, I told y'all that everything would be subscription in the future but you guys laughed..
Every single professional software I use at work has been subscription for years now. We spend probably 50K a year for all of them between 5 engineers.
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Post by bobeschism on Mar 27, 2023 7:26:09 GMT -6
Yes, Emagic did it too me.
A moment's silence for Logic 5.5.1 for PC, please.
...
Thank you.
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Post by 000 on Mar 27, 2023 7:29:42 GMT -6
People are talking about this everywhere and one common complaint I see is the “Waves doesn’t care about me - the customer whose spent thousands on plugins. They’re going to lose all their customers.”
The guy willing to spend thousands of dollars on a plug-in suite doesn’t really exist anymore… and clearly isn’t their target customer anymore. Waves has been struggling to find their market for years now.
The advantage that waves does have is their vast library of effects. Problem is - only a handful are really worth a damn - and to sell $29 plugins here and there is a far less sustainable business model.
Waves plugins are among the most pirated software on the internet. How many bedroom producers rocking a Scarlett solo already have these plugins installed - without giving waves a dime? To actually buy all the waves plugins would be completely out of reach - but $15 or $25 a month is worth not risking malware on your precious machine.
I’m sure they knew the backlash they were going to get by doing this - but at the end of the day the amount of money they’ll be pulling in is likely all they care about.
There’s nothing they make that I can’t live without. Not sure when it happened but at some point they went from releasing must have tools - to mostly cheesy throwaways.
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Post by svart on Mar 27, 2023 7:34:41 GMT -6
So any good replacement for L1? I don't care about color or M/S or filtering or anything like that.
Just a limiter I can push 5-10dB without noticeable artifacts.
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 27, 2023 7:42:16 GMT -6
Yeah, that's what I like about subscriptions for those of us who are not doing this every single day. However, it sucks if your situation changes and your work rythm changes. When I was taking client work (I might go back to that when I semi retire from being a full time musician) then $25 a month is irrelevant as the clients are paying for it. I don’t think successful studios and full time music producers are going to flinch at $25 per month - it’s 0.83 cents per day. In my part of the world a sandwich and a coffee is $15! I know I’m going upset people saying this, but Waves have without doubt thought this through and I honestly think their business will grow. It’s attractive to beginners starting out who have no software. It’s an irrelevant cost to successful professionals (it just gets written off as expenses) People like me who write and mix in cycles can turn the switch on and off. That leaves those not falling into those three categories who I do honestly feel for and I fully understand why they are very p***ed off …. I know I would be in their situation. As a working professional I can promise you that yes. I'm batting my eyes. There are too many subscriptions now and I'm sure it'll only get worse. So now instead of picking and choosing the tools from companies that I actually A)need B) want. I have to subscribe to something which gives me access to everything! But I don't need everything or want everything. And means now the cost will get shifted to clients as the cost of doing business in fact has gone up. Because now I have 1-5 subscriptions to pay for on a monthly basis. Software is no longer becoming an asset. It's a rental. That sucks for pro users. Great for part time users. |
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Post by drumsound on Mar 27, 2023 7:55:22 GMT -6
I mainly use L1 to manage peaks in vocals, like CLA does. I've tried to move away from it to the stuff that Dan recommends (TDR limiter, etc) and DMG TrackLimit, but nothing sounds quite like it. I'm pretty sure it's a simple algorithm full of aliasing, but it does make a vocal cut better l and stay present without artifacts, when set appropriately. Has anyone found something like L1? Pro Tools comes with a limiter called Maxim (i think) that I've used on vocals from time to time. Of course if you're not a PT user... Fuggin pissed about this. Would have been mostly ok with it if they had given more than 4 days notice. And really they switched over a day earlier than they said so just screwed all around. I need an LA3a plugin now and La2a plugin. And SSL EQ. Unfreaking believable how they went about this. If you're not looking for the whole SSL channel strip, the Sonimus StonEQ4k is really cool. the PA Opto pedal (and I assume the full sized) is kinda La3a like. |
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Post by christopher on Mar 27, 2023 8:01:09 GMT -6
The pros will just keep rockin their power PC and PT 6. It’s the newbies thinking they need it to be pro gonna keep the subscriptions going
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Post by brenta on Mar 27, 2023 8:03:47 GMT -6
I've probably spent about $2000 on Waves plugins over the last 20 years, including $600 for the API bundle back in like 2004 or so, which was actually a good deal back then and a game changer. I've used some API and Renassaince plugins on probably every mix I've done since then so I guess I've gotten my money's worth, but I still suddenly feel like I've had the rug pulled out from under me. I feel like I'm being asked to pay rent on a house that I already own.
Waves happily took my money just two weeks ago to "buy" the BB Tubes plugin, knowing full well they were going to do this. Scandalous. Now those of us who have spent thousands with their company are in the same spot as those who have never spent a dime.
I believe Waves has completely miscalculated and this is going to blow up in their face, and could actually put the company under or result in them having to sell the company. Every single customer they had is pissed, with most swearing off the company for good.
Trying to force subscriptions hasn't seemed to work out well for other audio companies. Avid has had to continually back peddle and offer perpetual licenses. How long have they been trying to switch to subscription? A decade? And compressor plugins are a lot easier to switch out than a DAW. Antares and Izotope have had to to continue offering perpetual, and things were so dire with Slate and their subscription that he had to sell his company.
I'm in the "never subscription" camp so I will be phasing out Waves immediately. Luckily there are just endless plugin options these days.
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Post by thehightenor on Mar 27, 2023 8:15:55 GMT -6
When I was taking client work (I might go back to that when I semi retire from being a full time musician) then $25 a month is irrelevant as the clients are paying for it. I don’t think successful studios and full time music producers are going to flinch at $25 per month - it’s 0.83 cents per day. In my part of the world a sandwich and a coffee is $15! I know I’m going upset people saying this, but Waves have without doubt thought this through and I honestly think their business will grow. It’s attractive to beginners starting out who have no software. It’s an irrelevant cost to successful professionals (it just gets written off as expenses) People like me who write and mix in cycles can turn the switch on and off. That leaves those not falling into those three categories who I do honestly feel for and I fully understand why they are very p***ed off …. I know I would be in their situation. As a working professional I can promise you that yes. I'm batting my eyes. There are too many subscriptions now and I'm sure it'll only get worse. So now instead of picking and choosing the tools from companies that I actually A)need B) want. I have to subscribe to something which gives me access to everything! But I don't need everything or want everything. And means now the cost will get shifted to clients as the cost of doing business in fact has gone up. Because now I have 1-5 subscriptions to pay for on a monthly basis. Software is no longer becoming an asset. It's a rental. That sucks for pro users. Great for part time users. Computer and software were never assets on my accounts. If it appreciates buy it. If it depreciates lease it. It's an old business maxim. My accountant asked me the other week why I don't start leasing Mac's - he made some good arguments about the benefits. My studios XL spread sheet shows I spent $25,000 on computer hardware and software over the last 20 years. How much of that am I using here today? About 20% of it at the most the rest become junk in the recycle skip or outdate, outmoded unsupported software - paid updates of everything you bought are just more rent. The hardware bought over that time period is worth more than I paid for it! Computer hardware and software are by definition very transient products. But yes you're right, these moves to subs for large software collections will polarize user bases. Those who only use a couple of plugins will seek alternatives. And smaller developers will always sell plugins - that won't change. It's all very frustrating I get that - but I think in general computers and software have been expensive adventures for a lot of people which either bring a great deal of joy or in a business a healthy ROI (hopefully) |
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Post by Quint on Mar 27, 2023 8:18:58 GMT -6
Fuggin pissed about this. Would have been mostly ok with it if they had given more than 4 days notice. And really they switched over a day earlier than they said so just screwed all around. I need an LA3a plugin now and La2a plugin. And SSL EQ. Unfreaking believable how they went about this. About the closest thing we got to a warning was that cryptic email we got a couple of weeks back that said you had to have all dealer-purchased plugins registered by the 26th, due to upcoming licensing changes or some such verbiage. When I saw that email, I sort of thought something was up, but I wasn't sure what it might be. Now I know. Anyway, yeah, I agree, an official announcement that they were going full subscription, along with a corresponding window of time for everyone to be given an opportunity to readjust, would have been the right thing to do. |
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Post by Quint on Mar 27, 2023 8:21:22 GMT -6
As a working professional I can promise you that yes. I'm batting my eyes. There are too many subscriptions now and I'm sure it'll only get worse. So now instead of picking and choosing the tools from companies that I actually A)need B) want. I have to subscribe to something which gives me access to everything! But I don't need everything or want everything. And means now the cost will get shifted to clients as the cost of doing business in fact has gone up. Because now I have 1-5 subscriptions to pay for on a monthly basis. Software is no longer becoming an asset. It's a rental. That sucks for pro users. Great for part time users. Computer and software were never assets on my accounts. If it appreciates buy it. If it depreciates lease it. It's an old business maxim. My accountant asked me the other week why I don't start leasing Mac's - he made some good arguments about the benefits. But yes you're right, these moves to subs for large software collections will polarize user bases. Those who only use a couple of plugins will seek alternatives. And smaller developers will always sell plugins - that won't change. I'm fine with what UA (and a few others) and a few others are doing, which is to offer a sub AND a perpetual option. It doesn't have to be a one or the other thing. Just offer both and let everyone pick the option that suits them. |
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Post by svart on Mar 27, 2023 8:27:45 GMT -6
Computer and software were never assets on my accounts. If it appreciates buy it. If it depreciates lease it. It's an old business maxim. My accountant asked me the other week why I don't start leasing Mac's - he made some good arguments about the benefits. But yes you're right, these moves to subs for large software collections will polarize user bases. Those who only use a couple of plugins will seek alternatives. And smaller developers will always sell plugins - that won't change. I'm fine with what UA (and a few others) and a few others are doing, which is to offer a sub AND a perpetual option. It doesn't have to be a one or the other thing. Just offer both and let everyone pick the option that suits them. Almost everyone who offers BOTH will eventually move to subscription. Every one of my work programs had both options for a year or two and then moved to subscription. It's a better way than just switching, but they'll eventually move over. |
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Post by brenta on Mar 27, 2023 8:43:01 GMT -6
I'm fine with what UA (and a few others) and a few others are doing, which is to offer a sub AND a perpetual option. It doesn't have to be a one or the other thing. Just offer both and let everyone pick the option that suits them. Almost everyone who offers BOTH will eventually move to subscription. Every one of my work programs had both options for a year or two and then moved to subscription. It's a better way than just switching, but they'll eventually move over. I dunno man. What industry is that software for and how many alternatives are there? I feel like the music industry is different, and the plugin industry is way different. Waves is not essential to anyone, and there are more plugin companies these days than anyone can keep track of. For those of us who don't want to do subscription (which seems like almost everyone), we have countless other options. An artist would need to get about 6,500 Spotify streams a month just to break even on a Waves subscription. And getting 6,500 streams a month is really hard. If Pro Tools still hasn't managed to go subscription only at this point then I'm not sure how Waves can. DAWs are an extremely "customer sticky" product in that switching can cause all kinds of compatibility issues with past and current work, and they have a massive learning curve that stifles creativity and efficiency, but yet Pro Tools still can't get everyone on board with their subscription model. And the way the Waves has made this "transition", if it can be called that, has burned bridges with their entire customer base. I think most people will just continue to switch to non-subscription companies. |
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Post by mike on Mar 27, 2023 8:44:27 GMT -6
As for me, I'm also in the never subscribe camp....and not too happy with Waves in that I contacted their CS just last week asking when and why WUP hadn't been on sale for at least a year so that I could WUP my new M1 machine. Instead of telling me to WUP now because you never know when it will be gone, I got the usual upsell verbiage suggestion to upgrade to a more expensive product to renew my versions only, nothing about pending changes....Though I heard some account holders were notified a few days before the switch to sub, I never was and will be replacing the few Waves plugs I used and moving on.
As for Waves, while I expect the current backlash is more than they expected, they knew it was coming but thought it was worth it anyway taking a page from other software Co's who keep searching for evolving pathways to monetize and sell their same products over again whether it be through changing system requirements, bundles, subscriptions, perpetuals, dongles, etc etc........so I fully expect perpetuals to come back some day for Waves and the current subscription thing as a calculated move they knew they would catch heat on, but they'll monetize from those who will for a period of time,...then perhaps take a page from UA and offer bundle perpetuals down the road awhile, before eventually stepping back down to perpetual for individual products possibly seeking to monetize those who will do each step of the way, and betting that many of us saying never again now will gratefully return back to perpetual again some day after they've monetized the same product several ways in-between and believing the gross return of this plan even with losing some customers forever is a higher return for them overall than the alternative in their view I'm guessing.
While it's different in some ways of course, I get the feeling UA's evolving ways to step by step monetize their same plugs moving from dongles, to sub, to bundles etc played a part in influencing Waves I'd guess.
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Post by christopher on Mar 27, 2023 8:49:30 GMT -6
Why subscribe though? Reaper has a version of every wavs plugin. Not the exact same, no. Is it close enough? If people get to say plugins are close enough to hardware, I can say reaper JS is close enough to wavs.
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Post by svart on Mar 27, 2023 8:52:09 GMT -6
Almost everyone who offers BOTH will eventually move to subscription. Every one of my work programs had both options for a year or two and then moved to subscription. It's a better way than just switching, but they'll eventually move over. I dunno man. What industry is that software for and how many alternatives are there? I feel like the music industry is different, and the plugin industry is way different. Waves is not essential to anyone, and there are more plugin companies these days than anyone can keep track of. For those of us who don't want to do subscription (which seems like almost everyone), we have countless other options. An artist would need to get about 6,500 Spotify streams a month just to break even on a Waves subscription. And getting 6,500 streams a month is really hard. If Pro Tools still hasn't managed to go subscription only at this point then I'm not sure how Waves can. DAWs are an extremely "customer sticky" product in that switching can cause all kinds of compatibility issues with past and current work, and they have a massive learning curve that stifles creativity and efficiency, but yet Pro Tools still can't get everyone on board with their subscription model. And the way the Waves has made this "transition", if it can be called that, has burned bridges with their entire customer base. I think most people will just continue to switch to non-subscription companies. But PT did indeed create a subscription model.. And got pushed back on and decided to keep perpetual for a while.. But it'll eventually move over to subscription-only in the next few years. I would bet on it. |
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Post by brenta on Mar 27, 2023 9:04:56 GMT -6
I dunno man. What industry is that software for and how many alternatives are there? I feel like the music industry is different, and the plugin industry is way different. Waves is not essential to anyone, and there are more plugin companies these days than anyone can keep track of. For those of us who don't want to do subscription (which seems like almost everyone), we have countless other options. An artist would need to get about 6,500 Spotify streams a month just to break even on a Waves subscription. And getting 6,500 streams a month is really hard. If Pro Tools still hasn't managed to go subscription only at this point then I'm not sure how Waves can. DAWs are an extremely "customer sticky" product in that switching can cause all kinds of compatibility issues with past and current work, and they have a massive learning curve that stifles creativity and efficiency, but yet Pro Tools still can't get everyone on board with their subscription model. And the way the Waves has made this "transition", if it can be called that, has burned bridges with their entire customer base. I think most people will just continue to switch to non-subscription companies. But PT did indeed create a subscription model.. And got pushed back on and decided to keep perpetual for a while.. But it'll eventually move over to subscription-only in the next few years. I would bet on it. That's what I'm saying, PT created a subscription model, and has tried and failed over and over and over again to force it on everyone. I'm not certain how long it's been since they first announced they were going subscription only but it feels like it's been about 10 years. And I don't know how many times I've heard that it's the last time PT is offering perpetual licenses just to find out a year later that yet again they are offering perpetual licenses. So going subscription only hasn't happened for them despite their best efforts, and they have a much stickier customer base than any plugin company. |
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Post by christopher on Mar 27, 2023 9:08:40 GMT -6
Anyone else own Lurssen? I tried it on individual tracks, it makes them pop instantly. It’s my current rbass/ L1/L2/L3 go to.
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Post by Tbone81 on Mar 27, 2023 9:15:18 GMT -6
Subscriptions are a good deal if you only need one. But like Blackdog said, to get the one or two plugs you need from each developer, are you going to pay for 4-5 subs every month? Or would you rather wait for Black Friday, buy the few plugins you need at huge discounts and then never worry about it?
I used to subscribe to the slate everything bundle. After two years I found I was only using like 3 plugins. It was no longer a good deal, I lost money on that transaction, killed the subscription and moved on. Could’ve just spent the money on the perpetual licenses and been ahead. Live and learn.
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Post by Tbone81 on Mar 27, 2023 9:23:18 GMT -6
The people who gain the most from this are the DAW manufacturers. This is a ever growing opportunity for Cubase, Logic, S1, Harrison Mix Bus etc to make better plugins and unique tools.
I already have zero problem using mostly stock Cubase plugins. I just did a mix yesterday in PT using only stock plugins, sounded fine.
The DAWs are already slowly adding their own versions of auto tune, isotop type spectral repair and other tools that used to be really unique.
The only place I feel that DAWs are really lacking at this point are reverbs and delays. That’s one place where I still use 3rd party plugins. But how long till they develop some better verbs? Or just buy a plug-in manufacturer for their verb code?
I’d gladly pay a subscription to Cubase/PT/Logic etc if that was the ONLY thing I needed. I think that’s the real future
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Post by Quint on Mar 27, 2023 9:42:32 GMT -6
I'm fine with what UA (and a few others) and a few others are doing, which is to offer a sub AND a perpetual option. It doesn't have to be a one or the other thing. Just offer both and let everyone pick the option that suits them. Almost everyone who offers BOTH will eventually move to subscription. Every one of my work programs had both options for a year or two and then moved to subscription. It's a better way than just switching, but they'll eventually move over. We'll see. I don't necessarily agree that this will happen with UA, specifically, but I do understand why companies are tending to go in the direction of subscriptions, generally speaking. The thing with UA is that, as long as they continue to offer the DSP option, and I don't see that going anyway anytime soon, there is a bit more tangible quality (because you have to buy dedicated hardware like the Apollo or Satellite) to the UAD DSP plugins that would make it a tougher pill for their perpetual license customer base to swallow, if UA ever went 100% subscription based. I'm not saying it can't ever happen. I'm just saying that it's a higher hurdle for UA to clear than other companies. Avid has apparently started offering perpetual licenses again, and I suspect that may have something to do with HDX being on DSP hardware as well. That decision didn't happen in a vacuum, so something pushed Avid to start offering perpetual licenses again. I think those that pay for DSP hardware can, to a greater extent, demand that they own, not rent, their software. |
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Post by Quint on Mar 27, 2023 9:44:35 GMT -6
Almost everyone who offers BOTH will eventually move to subscription. Every one of my work programs had both options for a year or two and then moved to subscription. It's a better way than just switching, but they'll eventually move over. I dunno man. What industry is that software for and how many alternatives are there? I feel like the music industry is different, and the plugin industry is way different. Waves is not essential to anyone, and there are more plugin companies these days than anyone can keep track of. For those of us who don't want to do subscription (which seems like almost everyone), we have countless other options. An artist would need to get about 6,500 Spotify streams a month just to break even on a Waves subscription. And getting 6,500 streams a month is really hard. If Pro Tools still hasn't managed to go subscription only at this point then I'm not sure how Waves can. DAWs are an extremely "customer sticky" product in that switching can cause all kinds of compatibility issues with past and current work, and they have a massive learning curve that stifles creativity and efficiency, but yet Pro Tools still can't get everyone on board with their subscription model. And the way the Waves has made this "transition", if it can be called that, has burned bridges with their entire customer base. I think most people will just continue to switch to non-subscription companies. Agreed. |
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Post by christopher on Mar 27, 2023 9:47:31 GMT -6
Why force atmos when Apple could just force everyone to export from a licensed logic? That’s kinda where it seems to be heading
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Post by brenta on Mar 27, 2023 10:11:54 GMT -6
Meanwhile, UAD is openly elated about this and Softube is currently running an ad over at GS that reads "Invest in professional plugins that you'll own forever." All their competitors are licking their chops, and rightfully so.
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Post by Quint on Mar 27, 2023 10:15:49 GMT -6
Meanwhile, UAD is openly elated about this and Softube is currently running an ad over at GS that reads "Invest in professional plugins that you'll own forever." All their competitors are licking their chops, and rightfully so. Ha. I was about to post the same thing. That Softube ad seems to pop up at the top of every page in that Waves thread over on GS.  |
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