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Post by musicminister187 on Nov 4, 2022 10:50:21 GMT -6
Here are a couple iPhone voice notes of an artist I work with. We actually paused the album until we improve the vox. I like the way the vox sounds here as it’s very opened and detailed. Strangely, I prefer the voice notes over the mics we have tried so far (SM7, U87, L22). We’re in the Caribbean so testing is virtually impossible hence the reason I went with the L22 but I’ll like to track with a comp and the L22 is stereo. The L22 is good but I like the depth and 3D qualities of high end tube mics, feel I’m missing that 25% which makes a lot of difference. I’m not sure if it’s the compression these phones use but I really like the way they bring out details on this vox while sounding open and forward. Most bright LDC’s under 2k that bring out these details are either too essy or harsh in the highs. I tried the U47 & 67 emulations on the L22 and they are not what I’m looking for. I’ve also tried a real vintage U87>1073>Aurora (n) before purchasing the L22 which was good but nothing like the C12/251 emulation. On the L22 system, the C12 emulation works best, the C800 also work but has less energy and excitement and emotion than the C12 on his vox but is still great. The 251 emulation also works but I prefer the C12. I’m judging based on emulations. The 414 has great mids but lack the air and highs. I’m willing to go high end with a great tube mic but I don’t have the time to wait for a custom build. I’ll appreciate pointer from you guys here as in what mic you think would best bring out the qualities of this vox. I need a mic that would give an open sound maintaining the air and details in the mid frequencies. 5k on a mic is a huge investment for me but I’m willing to go that far to get “that sound”. I’m trying to convince myself that the Redd will work, I know it’s not a C12 but it’s difficult finding a great C12 in this price range with sound examples online. Listening to these, where would you begin? This has honestly been a frustrating journey, your help is appreciated. www.dropbox.com/sh/gzvayvti0osd7kv/AAC9xj9V9AIUI3G8yZhcBrJya?dl=0 |
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Post by mcirish on Nov 4, 2022 13:49:47 GMT -6
I listened to "no weapon". I can see why you might prefer a brighter mic. The voice note doesn't sound good to me though. There's some odd room resonance going on but heck... it's just a voice note on the phone, so i can get an idea of the singer. I have not heard any of the emulation mics (software) that I felt nailed the real thing. There's always something odd about them. I think even a FET47 with some compression and top end added is going to sound nice. A real 251, or even most clones, are going to be way out of the budget. I'm a bit surprised you couldn't get something workable from the SM7 or U87. They may need a bit of EQ but if the room you are recording in has some treatment, I'd think one of them could work.
Do you have any recordings with either of those two mics for comparison? How's your monitoring there? is it possible you might not be hearing it as it really is?
Just some thoughts.
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Post by tkaitkai on Nov 4, 2022 14:04:05 GMT -6
Checked out the clips — your artist has a great voice. I can't imagine any high end mic NOT working for him, but I can also definitely see why you're leaning toward a brighter mic.
The REDD has a K67-ish capsule, so if you liked the U87 (as well as the Sphere C800G emu), you will probably love the REDD. Not that capsule choice tells the whole story or anything, but it should give you a general idea of what sonic "family" a mic belongs to.
OTOH, if a C12 is the perfect fit, your choice is simple: the Flea 12 and Manley Gold are both right around $5k.
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Post by Chad on Nov 4, 2022 14:13:51 GMT -6
Wow! What a voice! Love this guy already.
Not sure why an 87 didn't work.
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Post by hadaja on Nov 4, 2022 14:21:49 GMT -6
Welcome to RGO. Todd has a Redd he might chime in when he gets a chance as he has also had a few of those other mics 251/c12 you were asking about.
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Post by chessparov on Nov 4, 2022 14:43:55 GMT -6
Don't laugh but...
Also try him on any reasonable Dynamic too.
Scratch used to use some different Shure's and EV's.
I highly suspect a RE20 or M88TG can be way up there on this guy.
Even a 57/58, let alone a SM7!
What Pre's/Signal Chain do you have?
Chris
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Post by Chad on Nov 4, 2022 15:21:44 GMT -6
Don't laugh but... Also try him on any reasonable Dynamic too. Scratch used to use some different Shure's and EV's. I highly suspect a RE20 or M88TG can be way up there on this guy. Even a 57/58, let alone a SM7! What Pre's/Signal Chain do you have? Chris That's good advice, Chris. |
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Post by chessparov on Nov 4, 2022 16:49:40 GMT -6
Thanks! Heavily influenced by the great AE's... Bob Ohlsson and Mike Tarsia (RIP).
Chris
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Post by musicminister187 on Nov 4, 2022 19:23:38 GMT -6
I listened to "no weapon". I can see why you might prefer a brighter mic. The voice note doesn't sound good to me though. There's some odd room resonance going on but heck... it's just a voice note on the phone, so i can get an idea of the singer. I have not heard any of the emulation mics (software) that I felt nailed the real thing. There's always something odd about them. I think even a FET47 with some compression and top end added is going to sound nice. A real 251, or even most clones, are going to be way out of the budget. I'm a bit surprised you couldn't get something workable from the SM7 or U87. They may need a bit of EQ but if the room you are recording in has some treatment, I'd think one of them could work. Do you have any recordings with either of those two mics for comparison? How's your monitoring there? is it possible you might not be hearing it as it really is? Just some thoughts. This is the L22, think it was the 251 emulation, into a RND Portico Channel ii: This album was the u67 emulation from the L22 > same RDN Channel... Went for a vintage vybe but would have chosen something else if I was to do it again: br] This was the u87 >1073jr>falcon: |
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Post by musicminister187 on Nov 4, 2022 19:41:28 GMT -6
Wow! What a voice! Love this guy already. Not sure why an 87 didn't work. The u87 is good, did bring out the mid freq smoothly and was def balanced but if you listen to the release above vs the voice note, the money on this vox is the high end sparkle/air, that makes it stand out. I was able to capture that on “Price of Love” but the mic pre (Portico) was too clean for my taste so I swapped out my porticos for AML’s and they work better for his vox. Since we got the AML’s we’ve only done one track and used the u67 instead because of the vintage vybe of the instrumental. The L22 never wow’d me. The voice notes imo still sound better, not the quality of the audio but the qualities/the detail it captures across the spectrum. I have a feeling a 414 XLii with a tube pre like the Redd47 will capture this in a similar way. Maybe not. The Manley Gold is appealing, like the examples I’ve heard. |
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Post by tkaitkai on Nov 4, 2022 19:59:56 GMT -6
Okay, first thing — your productions sound GREAT. And again, the singer is excellent. You've nailed the most important parts of making music, so everything from here on out is pretty much a matter of taste.
Personally, I prefer the U87 track by far. It has the exact sort of midrange clarity and presence I would want to hear in a song like this. It just sits in the track effortlessly. Based on this, the REDD would be my first choice.
But that's just my preference. I can see why you like the Sphere 251 emu. As far as 251-style mics go, I would highly recommend the Upton 251. I own one and it's absolutely phenomenal. Right in your price range, too. A 251 might be a good middle-ground between the midrange presence of a U87 and the airy high end of a C12.
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Post by musicminister187 on Nov 4, 2022 20:11:10 GMT -6
Okay, first thing — your productions sound GREAT. And again, the singer is excellent. You've nailed the most important parts of making music, so everything from here on out is pretty much a matter of taste. Personally, I prefer the U87 track by far. It has the exact sort of midrange clarity and presence I would want to hear in a song like this. It just sits in the track effortlessly. Based on this, the REDD would be my first choice. But that's just my preference. I can see why you like the Sphere 251 emu. As far as 251-style mics go, I would highly recommend the Upton 251. I own one and it's absolutely phenomenal. Right in your price range, too. A 251 might be a good middle-ground between the midrange presence of a U87 and the airy high end of a C12. Thank you, appreciate it. Yea the u87 does sound good. What you’re saying makes a lot of sense, I wouldn’t want to lose the mid range clarity the u87 gives but adding the air of a C12. This strengthens what I was perceiving, thanks. If the 251 has this mid range and the top end it may be the mic. I’m curious to hear your comparison of the 251 and REDD. You’re saying you would choose a Redd over the Upton 251? |
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Post by the other mark williams on Nov 4, 2022 20:35:51 GMT -6
Okay, first thing — your productions sound GREAT. And again, the singer is excellent. You've nailed the most important parts of making music, so everything from here on out is pretty much a matter of taste. Personally, I prefer the U87 track by far. It has the exact sort of midrange clarity and presence I would want to hear in a song like this. It just sits in the track effortlessly. Based on this, the REDD would be my first choice. But that's just my preference. I can see why you like the Sphere 251 emu. As far as 251-style mics go, I would highly recommend the Upton 251. I own one and it's absolutely phenomenal. Right in your price range, too. A 251 might be a good middle-ground between the midrange presence of a U87 and the airy high end of a C12. Thank you, appreciate it. Yea the u87 does sound good. What you’re saying makes a lot of sense, I wouldn’t want to lose the mid range clarity the u87 gives but adding the air of a C12. This strengthens what I was perceiving, thanks. If the 251 has this mid range and the top end it may be the mic. I’m curious to hear your comparison of the 251 and REDD. You’re saying you would chose a Redd over the Upton 251? in addition to something like an Upton 251, I’d strongly recommend checking out a Soyuz 017Tube |
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Post by tkaitkai on Nov 4, 2022 20:57:52 GMT -6
Okay, first thing — your productions sound GREAT. And again, the singer is excellent. You've nailed the most important parts of making music, so everything from here on out is pretty much a matter of taste. Personally, I prefer the U87 track by far. It has the exact sort of midrange clarity and presence I would want to hear in a song like this. It just sits in the track effortlessly. Based on this, the REDD would be my first choice. But that's just my preference. I can see why you like the Sphere 251 emu. As far as 251-style mics go, I would highly recommend the Upton 251. I own one and it's absolutely phenomenal. Right in your price range, too. A 251 might be a good middle-ground between the midrange presence of a U87 and the airy high end of a C12. Thank you, appreciate it. Yea the u87 does sound good. What you’re saying makes a lot of sense, I wouldn’t want to lose the mid range clarity the u87 gives but adding the air of a C12. This strengthens what I was perceiving, thanks. If the 251 has this mid range and the top end it may be the mic. I’m curious to hear your comparison of the 251 and REDD. You’re saying you would chose a Redd over the Upton 251? Now that's a tough call!
I haven't personally used the REDD, but my reason for leaning toward that one is that it's a K67-based mic, just like the U87 (although the REDD capsule obviously isn't a Neumann K67). And since your singer already sounds great on a U87, my bet is he'd sound phenomenal on a REDD.
Again, capsule choice won't tell you everything, but from what I can tell, the REDD has the same kind of midrange authority that just effortlessly sits in a mix. Similar to other modern/brightly-voiced K67 mics like the U87, C800G, or Ref C, but much more elegant and refined.
Someone mentioned teejay , he'd be a great person to chat with as he's shared several of comparisons between his REDD and various 251s, so maybe he can chime in. As far as the Upton goes, I can't say enough good things about it. It's my favorite mic I've owned to date. I need to upload some newer clips, but for now, here's one I've shared a few times: Upton + Lavry (No EQ) |
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Post by musicminister187 on Nov 4, 2022 21:34:42 GMT -6
Thank you, appreciate it. Yea the u87 does sound good. What you’re saying makes a lot of sense, I wouldn’t want to lose the mid range clarity the u87 gives but adding the air of a C12. This strengthens what I was perceiving, thanks. If the 251 has this mid range and the top end it may be the mic. I’m curious to hear your comparison of the 251 and REDD. You’re saying you would chose a Redd over the Upton 251? Now that's a tough call!
I haven't personally used the REDD, but my reason for leaning toward that one is that it's a K67-based mic, just like the U87 (although the REDD capsule obviously isn't a Neumann K67). And since your singer already sounds great on a U87, my bet is he'd sound phenomenal on a REDD.
Again, capsule choice won't tell you everything, but from what I can tell, the REDD has the same kind of midrange authority that just effortlessly sits in a mix. Similar to other modern/brightly-voiced K67 mics like the U87, C800G, or Ref C, but much more elegant and refined.
Someone mentioned teejay , he'd be a great person to chat with as he's shared several of comparisons between his REDD and various 251s, so maybe he can chime in. As far as the Upton goes, I can't say enough good things about it. It's my favorite mic I've owned to date. I need to upload some newer clips, but for now, here's one I've shared a few times: Upton + Lavry (No EQ)Strong vocals here Bro. Thanks for sharing, I’m getting a better idea of the Upton 251 sound. |
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Post by drumsound on Nov 4, 2022 22:44:43 GMT -6
A lot of people rave about the Flea 12. And doesn't Upton also make a C12?
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Post by ab101 on Nov 4, 2022 23:06:07 GMT -6
A lot of people rave about the Flea 12. And doesn't Upton also make a C12? Yes. And I love Upton's 251. However, the Flea 12 has Tim Campbell's capsule and I would love to hear it! |
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Post by thehightenor on Nov 5, 2022 3:04:32 GMT -6
Don't laugh but... Also try him on any reasonable Dynamic too. Scratch used to use some different Shure's and EV's. I highly suspect a RE20 or M88TG can be way up there on this guy. Even a 57/58, let alone a SM7! What Pre's/Signal Chain do you have? Chris I'm with Chris on this one. It's a good voice but I can imagine it being a bit spitty on a 251 or Chandler REDD - those mics (especially the Chandler) can sound very etched not something I'd prescribe for this soulful male tone. I'd be reaching for an SM7 or Beyer 88 or possibly a 70's U87 (not the AI model) That said it's hard to say from an iPhone recording as they can over emphasize the upper mids. |
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Post by Chad on Nov 5, 2022 5:00:57 GMT -6
Gotta love Soyuz. Here’s the FET version of the K67-based 017.
I wonder if this or their Tube 017 (the Townsend L22 emulation) would be a good fit for him.
Soyuz 017 FET:
Soyuz 017 Tube:
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Post by musicminister187 on Nov 5, 2022 8:30:06 GMT -6
Funny enough I dug up the first project which was tracked with the U87 6 years ago and shocked by how much better it is compared to the L22. The U87 emulation sounds nothing like it. The emulation isn't nearly as bright as the real u87.
These vocals weren't tracked by me, I edited and tuned however. I knew little about engineering at that point and left all equalization to the mixing engineer, if I did it now I’d make different eq decisions. I accepted whatever then being amateur hence the reason I’ve not been pulled to the 87 but thank God I searched for those files, I like the starting point the raw audio gave. I only started tracking vox in 2020 and went from the sm7 to the L22 last year, think I even prefer the sm7 over the l22 on this vox.
The u87 sounds great. Adding 1.5db around 6k-7k and cutting 1-2db around 200hz came close to the sound I'm perceiving. I think a great analog eq and tube comp can add some of the vybe I'm still looking for? Maybe a Redd47 mic pre?
I think this capsule type is where I need to start, it's either I hunt down a good vintage u87 or find something better. The Soyuz FET and tube mics sound great. Will they be a step up from the U87? I feel I'm getting closer guys, thank you for the help so far.
Edit: I listened to a Redd vs u87 on gearspace and the Redd has the mid presence of the u87 (bit smoother), less low mid and has a lot more added in the 5k-10k.
I think it’s a close call between the U87, Soyuz and Redd but these are what I’m looking at currently.
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Post by Chad on Nov 5, 2022 10:03:35 GMT -6
Funny enough I dug up the first project which was tracked with the U87 6 years ago and shocked by how much better it is compared to the L22. The U87 emulation sounds nothing like it. The emulation isn't nearly as bright as the real u87. These vocals weren't tracked by me, I edited and tuned however. I knew little about engineering at that point and left all equalization to the mixing engineer, if I did it now I’d make different eq decisions. I accepted whatever then being amateur hence the reason I’ve not been pulled to the 87 but thank God I searched for those files, I like the starting point the raw audio gave. I only started tracking vox in 2020 and went from the sm7 to the L22 last year, think I even prefer the sm7 over the l22 on this vox. The u87 sounds great. Adding 1.5db around 6k-7k and cutting 1-2db around 200hz came close to the sound I'm perceiving. I think a great analog eq and tube comp can add some of the vybe I'm still looking for? Maybe a Redd47 mic pre? I think this capsule type is where I need to start, it's either I hunt down a good vintage u87 or find something better. The Soyuz FET and tube mics sound great. Will they be a step up from the U87? I feel I'm getting closer guys, thank you for the help so far. Edit: I listened to a Redd vs u87 on gearspace and the Redd has the mid presence of the u87 (bit smoother), less low mid and has a lot more added in the 5k-10k. I think it’s a close call between the U87, Soyuz and Redd but these are what I’m looking at currently. This is great news. Glad you’re getting closer! |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 5, 2022 11:16:19 GMT -6
At the risk of getting pushback, I haven't liked a single track I've heard using mic emulations. There's just something flat about them to my ears. I can understand how brilliant it can be for a creative with a lower budget because it gives them a great variety of mic sounds, but there's just something wrong about the sound to me. It somehow just doesn't communicate the emotional content well. You can do much the same with some various mic emulation plug-ins. I have one that cost $29 that does it. I can also change to a mic emulation using UAD's Ocean Way plug-in.
Many of the vocal examples in the various demos have a vocal that's a throat tone, not an open full bodied tone. So instead of a clear sound, ( think Sinatra, or Pete Townsend), you kind of have a smaller closed in sound. So IMO, that tone is helped by an LDC with a tube. I have the Soyuz FET, and it's a seriously good mic, but the version with the tube always beats it out it for a main vocal.
I would suggest the Chandler REDD or the Soyuz 0-17 tube mic. Either one will get you what you need. The Chandler has an Abbey Road preamp built in, so that might factor into your choice.
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Post by chessparov on Nov 5, 2022 11:52:19 GMT -6
I agree MJB on the emulations versus conventional LDC's.
But...
So many great vocals on FET's (Including 87's), I think it's case by case.
Chris
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Post by crillemannen on Nov 5, 2022 12:19:27 GMT -6
Nice vocals!
I'd imagine he would be sounding good on any mic but I've tried out quite a few mics on my channel and I'd say the Chandler Redd, GA-8000 and GA Ela m251E (the new mic) is my favorite so far.
The Chandler is very upfront but has some nice lowmid bloom. The GA8000 is smooth and super clean which I really like. The new Ela m251E from Gap is very intimate and nice but more Smokey. More saturation and vibe then the Sony clone but extremely nice and it looks amazing!!
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Post by chessparov on Nov 5, 2022 12:54:31 GMT -6
BTW if the original singer is cool with it...
I use a very affordable MDC, as effectively a "sibilance tester".
It's the AKG P120 (Black).
I imagine it's still very low cost, in your area.
If I'm too sibilant on that (very) "flat-ish" mic-uh oh!
Time then for more "basic" diction exercise, on that specific phrase. Then back again for a "retest".
IMHO even for a Pro Studio, it can be a nice mic for BGV's/harmonies. Sounds more expensive than it is.
Plus could be loaned out for an Artist to try out. Less worries than something that is expen$ive!
Chris
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