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Post by OtisGreying on Nov 28, 2020 16:35:53 GMT -6
3rd party DAW users are going to be way behind 2020 intel models as far as CPU power using M1. And its not much different for native Logic users either.
All sorts of tests are coming out like this. Even Logic run natively is significantly slower than Intel models because most plugins have to be transcoded through Rosetta.
Basically M1 is not faster than the 2020 Intel models for music production. (yet?)
With as far as its lagging behind I wonder if Rosetta really takes up THAT much resources or if M1 is just not going to be as fast as advertised period. It's about 30% slower than Intel in most tests I'm seeing so for it to run 30% faster than Intel once everything is native seems like a very big jump to make, but perhaps Rosetta is that CPU intensive.. Not sure, but I won't be getting M1 until it's actually proven faster.
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Post by OtisGreying on Nov 28, 2020 16:59:16 GMT -6
Okay.... Not so sure now, apparently the logic guy I saw was testing with a particular setting off that affected the CPU power. Now the test is updated as far as Logic goes. I'm dying to know if the same setting change is available and where it is for other DAW's but apparently now Logic run through Rosetta or Logic run natively with plugins through Rosetta is more or less on par with 16" Intel MBP 2020.
Wondering if the same will apply to third party DAW's.. It did seem strange that Rosetta would be so CPU hungry so I have high hopes..
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 28, 2020 17:45:55 GMT -6
I’d take that with a grain OS salt as I have seen yt videos showing excellent logic performance on m1 using rosetta, it will just improve when plugs are certified for big Sur and the leaks about the next m1x chip performance show even more power( tbc). Anyway, a good time to be considering a new computer!
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Post by OtisGreying on Nov 28, 2020 18:36:35 GMT -6
I’d take that with a grain OS salt as I have seen yt videos showing excellent logic performance on m1 using rosetta, it will just improve when plugs are certified for big Sur and the leaks about the next m1x chip performance show even more power( tbc). Anyway, a good time to be considering a new computer! I updated my comments with the post following that one. Jon Sine's youtube test shows M1 on par with 2019 Intel MBP on Logic as long as proper settings are set.
Whats puzzling me is, considering the difference in performance in Jon Sine's test, it doesn't make sense that M1 on Ableton (or ProTools, Cubase, etc.) through Rosetta would be so much slower than Intel. Because Logic in that test is also being run through Rosetta and they're almost equal.
If there isn't a setting in Ableton or other DAW's to maximize performance like there was in the Jon Sine Logic test then how does that make any sense? Both applications are run through Rosetta so in comparison to native intel they should yield comparable performance gaps, no?
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Post by ericn on Nov 28, 2020 18:41:06 GMT -6
I’d take that with a grain OS salt as I have seen yt videos showing excellent logic performance on m1 using rosetta, it will just improve when plugs are certified for big Sur and the leaks about the next m1x chip performance show even more power( tbc). Anyway, a good time to be considering a new computer! Rosetta will downgrade your overall performance, how much so depends on so many factors. It also will increase latency. The good news Rosetta 2 is miles and miles better than the original. At this point it’s pretty safe to say you will only see the huge improvements everybody is raving about if you only run Logic and the included plugins. If you run something else look at it this way your going to be surprised by little performance improvements as you DAW, interface vendor and plug-in writers update to M1 code, so there is that. Yeah it would be nice if there was a simple absolute answer for this, every time Apple has reinvented the Mac they have acted like every a vendor should have dropped their entire development schedule and devoted every single resource to this. If you have any questions your best bet is to email your DAW, interface manufacturer all your plugin vendors and any other peripheral manufacturers to see what the status of their product is. Do, not I repeat do not take the answer of any one in an Apple store seriously ( a “ genius” told me today a TB3- PCIE chassis will absolutely work, not what the manufacturer is saying. If the manufacturer tells you it will work and you have problems let them know politely, you maybe the 1st or the 10 millionth.
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 28, 2020 18:43:32 GMT -6
Yes I saw, I am sanguine about all these tests, but the mi has consistently demonstrated significant performance (cpu and vi), low or no heat and much longer battery life. Any direct comparisons the intel macs I have seen , have good processing and ram performance, but much higher heat and fan noise issues. So, now any test that shows equivalent performance raises questions, why and how, but still early days doing comparison tests!
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Nov 28, 2020 18:43:49 GMT -6
Hopefully, many developers have been working on this for quite a while.
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Post by ericn on Nov 28, 2020 18:47:44 GMT -6
Hopefully, many developers have been working on this for quite a while. I was surprised how quickly these machines hit the street after Apple sent out the very weak developmer Mac Mini kit.
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 28, 2020 18:48:00 GMT -6
I run logic, not many 3rd party vi and UA, once UA is big Sur certified the new mini or mbp with 16 g ram is likely all the Mac I would need.
But the 16 inch mbp or I suspect imac with even better performance would be appealing but a fair bit more expensive than m1 machines?
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Nov 28, 2020 19:14:21 GMT -6
I suspect that both Adobe and Avid are pretty critical to Apple's reputation and image. I understand they almost lost both when they moved to system neXt and that was a lot of why they bought Logic and what became final Cut.
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Post by ericn on Nov 28, 2020 19:32:12 GMT -6
I suspect that both Adobe and Avid are pretty critical to Apple's reputation and image. I understand they almost lost both when they moved to system neXt and that was a lot of why they bought Logic and what became final Cut. Avid, really liked the idea that HP would at least Configure to their specs. Boy did they push the whole turnkey PC rig. The thing was at the same time they wanted to dominate the whole Prosumer market with the very problematic Session 8. Try explaining to somebody that their expensive 8 track computer needed to be a dedicated machine, but why can’t I play games on it ?
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Post by OtisGreying on Nov 28, 2020 22:09:14 GMT -6
Well for Logic users it seems like a no brainer at this point. As the video showed M1 is basically on par more or less with 16" MBP 2019 i9. (Logic in Rosetta, running non-natively)
Just a matter of the rest of us using Pro Tools, Ableton, Cubase, Rosetta puts us about 20-25% behind the Intel 16" i9 2019 in CPU power. Maybe that will change when these DAW's get updated for Big Sur.
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 29, 2020 0:28:25 GMT -6
Maybe check out protoolsexpert as I thought Russ ran tests in 3 daws logic, protools and studio one and wasn’t experiencing performance lags or maybe I misunderstood.
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 29, 2020 0:32:38 GMT -6
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Post by lando on Nov 29, 2020 3:31:17 GMT -6
That is an insane improvement!
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 29, 2020 5:46:56 GMT -6
And this is the intro chip with “only” 16 gig of ram, what will happen when they add more cores, neural processing and ram? Be very interesting when the new 16 inch mbp, iMac etc. drop!
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 29, 2020 7:46:31 GMT -6
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Post by OtisGreying on Nov 30, 2020 22:01:26 GMT -6
Interesting. The Pro Tools test unfortunately doesnt have the 16" MPB 2019 control that the logic test did but I guess it faired well? Kindove hard to say without that control.
For logic users M1 is clearly the way to go.
Hopefully some more Pro Tools, Ableton specific testing will come out with the 2019 MBP as the specific control as that Logic test did, to give better perspective on how the performance gaps differ from DAW to DAW.
So far the gains on Logic do not seem to totally translate to other DAW's unfortunately but this is subject to change as they get optimized for os11. Let us 3rd party DAW users hope for the best!
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Post by kcatthedog on Dec 1, 2020 1:39:28 GMT -6
And the even faster computers are on their way.
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Post by lando on Dec 1, 2020 3:19:03 GMT -6
Yeah, it looks kinda incredible to be honest. Maybe there's some flaw with this that I don't understand and that will be revealed later, but right now it looks like a revolution. The benchmarks are insane, with the new, small, Macbook air beating out any other mac laptop, including the 3+ times more expensive 16" MBP in multicore performance. In single core they outclass every other mac made by huge margins. Rumors say that the "pro" chip will be called M1X, have twelve cores and be much faster than M1. Sign me up for one of those Macbook pros!
Super exiting times to be a Mac user!
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Post by kcatthedog on Dec 1, 2020 3:42:16 GMT -6
It seems with the current 3 if the ram and ports are not issues, you are good to go: like I think the new mini 16 ram is probably fine but the next step up would faster and more memory but more money( maybe, that’s like buying insurance for future performance?
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Post by donr on Dec 1, 2020 12:04:03 GMT -6
In terms of what it does referenced to the rest of recording studio gear, the M1 mini is not that expensive to upgrade again when more powerful machines are sold. I'll probably do that when it makes sense to retire my trashcan MacPro. If the Apple silicon machines are that much stronger, they'll have no problem selling them to everyone who wants a piece of that power. It took many years for enough power for full mixes at 2048 buffer. Imagine unlimited plugs and VI's at 128 buffer. I am.
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Post by brenta on Dec 1, 2020 14:35:19 GMT -6
I've seen enough, these new chips blow the Intels away. On one hand it's surprising to see Intel get lapped like this. On the other hand, the amount of R&D money that ARM/Apple have been able to put into mobile chips due to selling billions upon billions of iPhones and iPads dwarfs any R&D money that Intel could invest. This is all a consequence of Intel getting caught off-guard by mobile processors over a decade ago.
It's not surprising that apps are running much slower through Rosetta. It's like using an interpreter to speak to someone in a different language. It takes more time and is less efficient. This new architecture is completely different than the x86 architecture that developers have been programming for for decades.
Unless you absolutely NEED a new Mac now, I don't think it makes sense to buy an Intel mac anymore. I was looking at buying a 16" Intel MBP soon, but I will wait for the M1X pro machines to be released and for Avid and friends to figure out how to make it efficient and stable. It will probably be about a year for those things to happen.
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Post by kcatthedog on Dec 1, 2020 15:14:10 GMT -6
Hey, I don’t want to get into any iMac bashing as I think they are great choices, especially if you need to be up and running ASAP. But , this video is interesting cus they run a plethora of head to head tests m1 mini vs 2020 imac, so some of this questions about raw performance, heat, fan noise, watts, battery draw, do seem to be revealed. Lots of graphs and data but very thorough and coherent. Grabba cuppa joe and settle in !
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Post by the other mark williams on Dec 2, 2020 9:14:47 GMT -6
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