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Post by jeromemason on Dec 31, 2018 18:42:35 GMT -6
I had meant to post this for all us guys running 16a's or others that only have the optical for digital I/O. Not a bad price and gets you back your AES and Coaxial Spdif connections, also gives expansion possibilities. I'll post my thoughts whenever I get mine. Motu 8 D
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Post by jeromemason on Dec 31, 2018 18:00:01 GMT -6
Which is probably why I dig those trannies so much. I roll off at 38hz at least, on every mix. When I hit the button I feel it tighten and solidify. I still get plenty of sub too. Last mix I turned in they wanted some of the sub out.
If I were doing like hip hop or something I'd still keep those in and juice the Pultecs at 20hz to slam up against that sucker even harder. They should had named this thing "The Einstein" because of how much information it'll soak up and not one bit of truncation.
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Post by jeromemason on Dec 30, 2018 1:46:37 GMT -6
Look at this way: in the old days you would have to capture the sound coming off the desk to your 2 Track. Could be a Studer. Or a frickin Masterlink. Any way you cut it, the Convert+ is the 2 track capture in Jerome's scenario. I believe he uses a summing mixer so the round trip is not optional like it would be if you were ITB. Bingo The money in what I do is on that mix buss. Dropping high dollar into it makes sense for me because that's my gig. But, it does do some really amazing things to sweeten what's already mighty succulent.
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Post by jeromemason on Dec 23, 2018 19:17:41 GMT -6
A lot of what you guys are hearing is the boxes transformers and it's emphasis circuit working. If you read up on the emphasis circuit, it's like a harmonic/eq/compressor mojo knob. By hitting those transformers and all that class D circuitry it does some very sweet and musical things to the audio. The transformers really concrete the bass and definitely make it cut laptop speakers and such, as I heard that for myself on that last mix. The last time I sent a mix to a mastering engineer that was the level and all they wanted, what I heard out in the world didn't represent the dynamics or tone I worked my ass off to get at all. Near about all the mixing engineers I know send their final mixes to the labels already hitting modern RMS levels, and that's how I've been doing it for a while now. Not once I have I got a note from a mastering guy complaining either. Now that I have this box I can get rid of the limiter and send out even more dynamic mixes with modern RMS levels. Eh. You're supposed to have relationships with mastering engineers, effective dialog about goals, etc etc. Not buying it (for myself). So nothing's mastered anymore? Really? Or it's double limited? Really? Are you bothering to print a non-clipped safety? I assume not. Considering hi-res release formats at all? I guess not. Anyway, any half-decent mastering guy out there should be able to do the same thing in a single pass with the clipping or brickwall limiting at the end of the chain. I'm gonna guess this kinda clipping gets serious moaning from a vinyl cutting guy, based on all my interactions with that process. Use of 'more dynamic' is a misnomer. There kinda aren't any dynamics by definition! But I guess you mean 'more dynamic in effect' than using a limiter to achieve the same levels. The emphasis circuit could be a lot of things, like higher or lower impedance drive to the transformers which would have EQ (more or less smiley face) and harmonic shift effects, or DC injection to crank harmonics. Definitely a plethora of those type boxes coming out these days. I do like Hammond transformers, and it's nice to see them used, I worry about them giving up on their classic lines since almost no one uses them in popular products. I'm not buying “Mastered for iTunes will not reject your opus" in regards to ClipGuard without more explanation. Maybe MFiT is gonna turn it down and the lack of clip indicator simply fools the algorithm? MFiT wants no peaks over -1dBFS as general recommendation. That sample indeed shows in RX7 as a near-constant 0dBFS, not even -0.05dBFS. Integrated loudness -6.5 LUFS compared to unprocessed -14.3 LUFS. No one seems to care about MFiT anyway. After the initial seductive loudness (which is always there) wears off, what I'm focusing on is the clipping artifacts. I don't really dig it, especially if I plan to listen to it more than once. Extra especially if I'm gonna listen on a good dynamic system. I have some converters in the home system that definitely fart real loud when they see sustained 0dBFS, that's a problem that's not been vanquished in consumer electronics, this may do more obvious damage on sustained tones, like a feedback symphony on an Earth record! QOTSA - 'Better Living Through Chemistry' has a droning feedback section that blew up a lot of CD players at the time, one example, the remix/reissue of Raw Power has it's own organic fuzz effect on whatever player tries to spit it out at full level (-2.2 LUFS). I still prefer significant crest factor in percussive music, which tends to be -12dB RMS or lower. It sounds really good for what it is, if that's what you want, I'll not deny that. It does a better job of that thing for sure. I'd want it if I were cranking out commercials for sure. Great for cramming as much as possible into lo-res systems of limited bandwidth. Experiment for people to try - so few ever do - level match the loud to the quiet (not necessarily any sample here, but anything pre and post process like this) by turning the loud back down, and see what you really hear going on (so yeah, back down to -14.3 LUFS with the one). You may be surprised by what parts you do and don't like. Once level matched (which the streaming services are gonna do) most things seem much more open to my ears in a non-clipped version. Worth dropping files into this too for perspective, it does an automatic level match approximation for different services: www.loudnesspenalty.com/You can open two browser windows and drop two versions in for pretty quick comparisons. Anyway....way too much blah blah from me on this! I'm apparently more suited to tracking jazz or classical even though I never do. I swear I've been slowly making louder and louder records over my sham of a career and using less and less compression as I go. Carry on! 99% of the time I have no clue who is mastering what I mix..... All that stuff about mix engineers getting to tell the label which ME to use..... Well all I can say is they clearly have a ton of sway over the labels. I don't make this stuff up, the things I say and put out there, I put it out there because I hope it helps people and gives them an idea of what to expect, I don't sit and make this stuff up for the heck of it. I just know that most if not all of the mixing guys in town I know send in their final's hot as hell and limited. Maybe that's a product of the labels not giving us in Nashville the choice of who masters it or makes sure there is an open line of communication with us during the mastering process. I just know I've never gotten a call from a Mastering Engineer asking me to take a listen and sign off before he turned in his work. I make it sound like I would want it to sound on the radio.......I hope the mastering guy can improve what I do. I've found that turning in hot mixes yields me that far far more over giving them something with a ton of headroom.
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Post by jeromemason on Dec 23, 2018 17:25:40 GMT -6
I'm not really sure how Antelope has their summing section set up in the Satori, but whatever they do whether it's active, buffered or passive.... That's they best sounding summing mixer I've ever heard. I'm not sure how they do it like I said, but there's a lot of electronics in that box and when you get into amplifiers and active summing mixers, if they don't have a killer design with a really extreme amount of headroom, they just sound flat to me.
The BLA PM8's..... I raved about them until I did a mix ITB and heard all the missing dynamics. It was the input transformers limiting that one. With Passive types the loading can make your mixes seem small if the preamps after them are not ok with that kind of load. I hope all that makes sense, but honestly the only summing mixers I'll vouch for anymore is the one in the Antelope Satori because I own it and can say with certainty that it rocks.
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Post by jeromemason on Dec 23, 2018 17:08:18 GMT -6
A lot of what you guys are hearing is the boxes transformers and it's emphasis circuit working. If you read up on the emphasis circuit, it's like a harmonic/eq/compressor mojo knob. By hitting those transformers and all that class D circuitry it does some very sweet and musical things to the audio. The transformers really concrete the bass and definitely make it cut laptop speakers and such, as I heard that for myself on that last mix.
The last time I sent a mix to a mastering engineer that was the level and all they wanted, what I heard out in the world didn't represent the dynamics or tone I worked my ass off to get at all. Near about all the mixing engineers I know send their final mixes to the labels already hitting modern RMS levels, and that's how I've been doing it for a while now. Not once I have I got a note from a mastering guy complaining either. Now that I have this box I can get rid of the limiter and send out even more dynamic mixes with modern RMS levels.
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Post by jeromemason on Dec 23, 2018 15:12:36 GMT -6
Guitar Here you go..... This file is already really slammed.... I did about all I could do. If you had something with no limiter and a few db of headroom you'd get a lot more effect out of this. - Jerome Mason
Original File
Dangerous AD + File
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Post by jeromemason on Dec 23, 2018 14:14:30 GMT -6
Sure.. What RMS level do you want it to be at?
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Post by jeromemason on Dec 23, 2018 12:01:40 GMT -6
All I can say is yikes, that sounds really incredible. I'd love to hear a comparison of something through the new Apollo's converters and the Convert 2, just as reference. I wouldn't expect the Apollo to outgun a separate converter that costs $2,500. It's really not going to sound anywhere near the same..... The converters in main interfaces can take a few clips here and there, but when you're pushing the RMS level into it you're going to hear fuzz...... The main reason I got this converter was because it was made to do exactly what you're hearing, to add that final bit of solid, open, detail and LOUD to what goes out of my shop. You can never get the same sound like that as you would with a limiter. The most amazing thing about the Dangerous AD + is being able to turn the over indicators off. I can push that mix you heard into RMS levels that are humming around -2db and it still not have any fuzz. It takes some serious engineering and thought to do all that Jerome
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Post by jeromemason on Dec 23, 2018 0:46:50 GMT -6
Yeah Kush Audio Electra..... Brad on here designed it.
I wouldn't want the Clairphonic because it's mostly just doing the top end. The Electra has the same beautiful sheen and sound but also allows you to do some very creative stuff in the bottom end and has a great mid eq section as well. I don't have one, I used to have a pair, but I'm keeping my open for one on the used market that is too good of a deal to pass up. But even still, brand spanking new they're a steal. On the buss a pair of them sounds great as well. They also sell a rack unit that has 2 channels of it, that's what I'd really like to find as I'd want one for my vocal chain and another for the kick.
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Post by jeromemason on Dec 23, 2018 0:09:36 GMT -6
No problem..... Just to note the transformers were engaged and emphasis was set to 12 o'clock...... That's the depth, tightness and extra openness you're hearing. A mix that is a bit more dynamic will impress even more. Glad to do it, and would be happy to do this for anyone thinking of grabbing one of these.
- Jerome
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Post by jeromemason on Dec 22, 2018 22:44:10 GMT -6
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Post by jeromemason on Dec 22, 2018 19:48:13 GMT -6
Just send it to me and I'll post both files so folks can hear the two.
What RMS level are you wanting? -10db or more?
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Post by jeromemason on Dec 22, 2018 19:43:59 GMT -6
Sure thing.
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Post by jeromemason on Dec 22, 2018 16:57:41 GMT -6
Electra sounds terrific on both. Using the HPF and low end knob lets you pull the chest out of a female and dial in the bucket on a male..... Not to mention the gorgeous sheen it has.
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Post by jeromemason on Dec 22, 2018 16:50:02 GMT -6
I have the Dangerous AD + and I can tell you for sure that with the peaks off you can really drive that converter and your RMS levels will get really high. It's a different sound all together..... you get the RMS levels up but you still get dynamic movement, also you don't hear limiting. It's great.
Post a mix and I'll show you....
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Post by jeromemason on Dec 21, 2018 20:44:35 GMT -6
I hear ya..... But I trust those guys about their boxes, and if they make it a point to use something specific I'm going to follow it best I can.
I do appreciate you explaining all that to me though, makes me feel a lot better about using the light pipe in the interim and knowing I haven't sent files with artifacts to my clients!
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Post by jeromemason on Dec 21, 2018 20:23:25 GMT -6
Thanks for that info.
I think I'll just keep the cables I have for right now because I haven't had one single complaint from any of the producers I work for or clients I work for saying they feel my mixes are flat, quite on the contrary actually...... But, I do think I am definitely in on getting this Motu 8 D because that will round out my connection issues on the digital side. If Dangerous is telling me "hey look, no worries using the lightpipe for now, but we recommend AES and good quality 150ohm cables at that." I take that pretty seriously because if it didn't matter they wouldn't be saying it. Also on the DAC side, having the Spidf coax does make a difference because I've heard it. It's kind of like you can see the painting and all it's beauty and colors, but (on Coax Spidf) the colors are more bold and textured.
Like I said, I'm not complaining on having to grab this Motu 8 D, considering I paid $1,200 for my 16a and that I'll likely get the 8 D for $475, that puts me at $1,675 all in for a no compromise 16 analog/16 digital I/O interface that's ESS Sabre and networkable. It would be nice to see Motu put these digital connections in their next version
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Post by jeromemason on Dec 21, 2018 16:56:55 GMT -6
Well, doing some research here I might have found a solution that gets rid of the Toslink cable all together..... Although, it's expensive compared to buying a couple of decent Toslink cables, it allows me to do what I want to do but also gives me a lot of expansion digitally for my setup. Motu sells a new half rack box called the 8 D. Basically it networks into your 16a via ethernet/AVB and has a pair of 2 in/out of Spidf and 2 in/out of AES/EBU along with WC I/O and a USB connection. Dangerous recommends going AES/EBU into the interface. I also would be able to go RCA Spidf into my ProJect S2 while having another pair of both AES and Spidf I/O if I wanted to expand in the future. The box sells for $595 but I'm sure I can get an open box or a deal from my guy Joel at Westlake Pro here in town. I figure I'd be spending around $200 for a good pair of glass Toslink cables, so why not just put in a little more money to get the extra digital I/O and the AES/EBU. Networked into the 16a over AVB will show it as one interface so I don't have to worry about aggregate devices either. Probably just going to go on and do this. The 16a is great at an amazing price, but has a few missing essential features, at least Motu has a solution for it and even buying the 8 D I'm still nearly half under what a new Apollo 16X costs. Even more under what an Apogee Symph MKII with 16 I/O would be. So for any guys out there on the Motu train that have this pesky problem, here is a fix. Westlake Pro Audio - Motu 8 D
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Post by jeromemason on Dec 21, 2018 14:52:51 GMT -6
Being my Motu 16a will only accept Spidf via Lightpipe, I'd never really given this much thought as I have some Radio Shack used to sell that are in a nylon braided jacket and were not cheap at all. That being said, after I bought the new Dangerous AD + it had some notes in the manual where they talked a lot about good quality cables. So, that prompted me to do a search and I was floored that these can go from $3.99 to $500. It seems that all the HiFi guys back the pure glass with a minimum 300 strand count and also there was a lot about the tips being metal and also the tip ends of the glass being polished.
I may have even asked this before, I don't remember, but being that single cable has about $10,000 worth of converters and gear behind it, I certainly want to make sure I'm not missing anything here. Also the connection from the Motu to my Pro-Ject S2 is lightpipe as well, so there again, there is even more money behind that cable. I have no problem investing in a couple of 3' Toslink cables if it's truly necessary. Please let me know your experiences and suggestions on brands or certain cables.
This is something I don't understand with Motu, a RCA type Spidf I/O seems like it would had been so easy to implement on these boxes and most people say that's the best route. For us Motu users however, we don't have a choice.
Jerome Mason
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Post by jeromemason on Dec 21, 2018 14:12:53 GMT -6
So I'm gonna build a pair. Blackdawg jeromemason indiehouse Is consensus that I MUST get something more cool and exotic than the RED25 they sell with the kit? I'm down to experiment but also just wanna get the things built and start using them. Also just as a note, the boards for the EQ's are already set up to accept the 2503's. You don't need to do any head racking on this, it's even got the right wire colors on the silk pads for the 2503's. Those transformers just give the EQ's a nice mid push and since you've got loads of sub and sheen in your hand to dial in, that mid push really compliments these nicely.
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Post by jeromemason on Dec 20, 2018 20:36:00 GMT -6
One thing that could be done with these is, while understanding to get to a price point like this some compromises have to be made, the transformers could be swapped to Sowters recreation. I've heard the originals with the drop in Sowters for the V72 and it was identical. The plate choke could stay the same, but just for future reference Sowter does make a drop in for a V72 circuit. Again I'm only saying this because I know that in recreations of classics like this, the transformers are usually the starting place to go cheaper in order to get that price point down. Other than that the circuit is pretty simple and a simple design referencing the originals schematic is going to yield a great tone.
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Post by jeromemason on Dec 20, 2018 15:39:36 GMT -6
I know it says American made Transformers, but does anyone know which company? In the original V72's/ V76s' the transformers and plate chokes were what made a tremendous part of the sound. I figured someone someday would finally recreate these preamps at a logical price point. Mercury did it, but they are crazy expensive. Really interested to know if these are custom built transformers and all, I just remember when it came to these pre's those transformers were vital in getting that sweet and lush tone.
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Post by jeromemason on Dec 20, 2018 0:13:43 GMT -6
See if you can find an old Ampex 601a that's been converted into a single channel preamp that they've put a DI in as well...... I have one here that has several different loading selections from taps on the transformer that was put in, goes down to 50onm's I think even. I know I took that to a session once and the bass player wouldn't shut up about how he'd never gotten so much balls and fattness from his bass. He was playing some Warwick'ish bass and I've always felt those are great basses, but when it comes to punch and power I've never thought they can muster that up, always always I ask the player to use a P Bass or Jazz, P bass first though.
Now, you could definitely upgrade your pickups and change out the electronics, that will get you 80% of the way to a USA P Bass. Also, checkout MojoTone.com and see if you can just buy one of their drop in vintage plates with all the electronics pre wired. For pickups if you really want balls and punch I'd say look at active EMG's....... I have this shitty guitar that is a Strat body and an Ibanez neck, but it has active EMG pickups and it freaking sounds great. It's even got a little switch that I can go from active to passive, those pickups are really great. Even as others have said with the strings, maybe try heavier strings and use a pick, those picks made from Tusk or whatever do have a sound to them.
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Post by jeromemason on Dec 19, 2018 15:27:11 GMT -6
Johnkenn I do have a magic box here though..... If you'll post a bass track I'll run it through it and repost. No EQ, no compression, just simply using it as an insert. I'd love for people to try and guess what it is.
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