Post by jeromemason on Oct 11, 2017 21:37:39 GMT -6
Yep, they're killing themselves slowly but surely by trying to cut corners and putting too much faith in the DSP modeling in the hardware.
The original RED 3 had trannies on the front end, they did away with that and it's electronically unbalanced. A member thats on here bought both versions, the older and the newer. Focusrite's chief designer swore that the new transformerless version was just as good, if not better than the original. Well, it took about 3 seconds of listening to the shootout to immediately hit the button on the transformer version, it's incredibly important and is what gives that compressor a lot of it's tone.
The same thing with the mic pre's, that Lundahl is what made the RED pre sound really great. Trying to model it? WTH are these companies doing?? They're killing the legacy of the tone they're famous for.
I like the RED net system, but Motu has already caught up to them at a fraction of the price, and using the ESS Sabre chipset which is proven a winner in both the Motu units and the Apogee Symphony.
I'm still amazed they pulled the trannies out of the RED 3 and kept the outside appearance exactly the same, no change.... it's misleading!
Post by jeromemason on Oct 11, 2017 20:01:42 GMT -6
Not sure why folks seem to think that 8 transformers would cost an extra $2k?
The design is simpler, there's more than enough room because all of that DSP and unbalancing real estate wouldn't be taken up.
Lundahl's are expensive buying singles from their site, yes, but a company like Focusrite that buys the amounts they buy those prices go down quite a bit. My reference to Motu isn't about transformers being on the preamps, of course they're not, but they don't sound bad in the design they're in. Focusrite has chosen to emulate the transformer and that just seems odd to me, especially when they're putting this into the RED category which is supposed to be the upper echelon of their products. It would had been really simple to include the transformers and only increase the price by a couple hundred bucks. When you look at a company like Motu, they're killing it right now. They're producing high end quality and selling it for a extremely fair price. I imagine they're making a lot of money doing it too because they continue making new products. Companies that are failing don't keep adding to their menu, they take away. So that proves Focusrite has plenty of room in the cost per unit to of been able to add the transformers and keep to the quality a lot of us expected. An emulated transformer isn't going to sound anything like the real deal, especially with Lundahl's, those are truly special transformers on the inputs.
This does not have transformer coupled preamps, 8 Of Them no less ... 8 transformer coupled preamps would be more than $3500... Aurora Audio GTP8 is $5k...
From Focusrite Red 8 Pre blurbs: “ They also include our unique ‘Air’ effect, recreating the sound of the transformer-based mic preamps in the ISA and original Red ranges. When ‘Air’ is enabled, the microphone impedance is lowered and the sound is given a subtle mid-high boost – all in the analogue domain. “
The Red Evolution mic pres in the Red Range include the ‘Air’ function. ‘Air’ is a purely analogue effect that emulates the sound of the transformer-based mic preamps of the ISA range, the foundations of Focusrite’s “Heritage Sound”.
“'Air' recreates the sound-shaping effect of the classic ISA transformer, by using an authentic analogue model of the original transformer-based preamp design. Engaging 'Air' reconfigures the three-stage preamp signal chain to switch in the correct transformer-style input impedance, followed by a linear gain stage, and finally inserting a passive frequency-shaping stage to recreate the tight low end and elevated high-end response – thus creating the effect described by our customers as the classic 'Air' sound of the heritage Focusrite mic pre.“
The transformer option wouldn't had increased the price by that much...... Focusrite buys a ton of trannies from Lundahl as it already is, incorporating that into this box would had been pretty easy and I'd imagine most folks wouldn't mind the extra couple hundred. They've emulated it, which to me is just lousy way to cut a corner.
Knowing that just makes it a no buy for me. Knowing what MOTU is accomplishing out there for a fraction of the price with ESS Sabre conversion...... MOTU is kicking ass right now. They just came out with the 828es which gives you a ton of functionality, pre's, Sabre conversion and ethernet expansion for $1k? Freaking amazing and respect the hell out of a company producing gear of that quality and keeping it insanely affordable.
Post by jeromemason on Oct 9, 2017 21:41:27 GMT -6
These look extremely impressive.
The RED mic pre's have always sounded really good. I'm still trying to figure out if these have the Lundahl trannies or if they have chosen to emulate that digitally, from my reading it sounds as if they've emulated the Lundahls on the inputs of the mic pre's. If that's the case, it would be pretty sad, Lundahls to me on the inputs of any mic pre/EQ/Comp are the best out there. Sowters on the output is my other fav.
I've love to have one of these for a week or two and see how it would sound as basically a drop in replacement of my Motu 16a, then see if my mixes were to improve. I do like they've put in a discrete DAC for the monitoring and chosen to keep the path analog, I'm sure it sounds fantastic. I need to read a bit more on these to see what chips they're using and such. The RED 4 Pre looks like the only difference is just the number of mic inputs.
The value here for me would be that I could offload my 16a and my Antelope Satori because this is an all in one box. I think it seems like a pretty good value if they're using the Sabre and Lundahls on the inputs.
I wish someone I knew had a few tricks I could borrow to fix that.
#1 thing - make sure it's not your room. Almost every room (untreated and/or smaller ones are worse) have a room node that will ring out with bass notes. Check in headphones to see if it's as bad there. If not, then it's most likely your room.
I used to focus way too much on individual notes or on notching the bass, but honestly if you know it's played with good bass like a P or Jazz bass, and the player didn't get all creative with the knobs, most likely the bass will be pretty flat and you'll find the biggest problem you have is getting a smooth sub freq and for me Maxxbass is really great at balancing the bass out.
These days with male vocals they love the bucket in the lowend of the voice, so I really work hard to get the bass and the vocal working right. Used to be the kick and bass but now they love the damn kick drum as loud as you can get it so an ear balance does fine there.
I ride the OH's more than anything else these days, by hand at least. Here and there spots on the vox I'll do by hand if it's a bridge in or out, maybe some kind of turn where things are really dynamically changing. Those spots, doing it by hand is the only way.
All that though is how I work and my workflow, and is probably totally different than other pro's, but whatever works for you is the way to go.
Low ratios and use the threshold to get the desired reduction. If you're planning on putting this on your buss then I would go for the lowest ratio you can get and be knocking around 3-4db off. It'll glue, but if you're not careful with the ratio it can sound grabby and small. For the buss I'd set it at like 1:1.2ish with around 3-4db. That should glue your mix and give a nice smooth and transparent sound.
On drums, kick the ration to 2:1 and dig in with the thresh until it pumps, then back off a tad, some serious punch will come. DBX gear is designed very well, they used bad parts and having those upgraded makes these into really great pieces of gear. Just be careful with the ratio, the threshold not so much, that's where you want to get your GR from.
Post by jeromemason on Sept 27, 2017 13:21:56 GMT -6
Not so much the compression you're after with that style of comp but more of the front and backend of it's amps. Try notching up the output quite a bit and attenuating with something transparent and simple behind it. Maybe try the waves one I guess? The CLA version maybe?
Post by jeromemason on Sept 27, 2017 11:55:27 GMT -6
If you used distressor'ish on nuke then all you were doing was clamping anything that spiked above the nuke threshold. Guitars like you're talking about are dominant from 180 - 10k. Just a note on doing what you're doing to achieve that, just watch your HPF and make sure you're rolling to the lowest root for the guitar so you don't pump the compressor.
You can probably surprise yourself some by using a really wide Q on something like Fab ProQ and the pivot being 4k. drop that a couple db and it will let you push the meat of the guitar higher.
Try an la-3a type comp with that top pulled a little like that, hit it maybe knocking 1-2db off, see if you like that sound as well. Don't forget to HPF first though.
Post by jeromemason on Sept 27, 2017 9:27:18 GMT -6
Usually transformers (saturation) along with any limiting will knock the sharp edges off. Harmonics, distortion is distorted which means it's not going to sound exactly the same on the other side. Same thing is happening on the bottom it's just less obvious.
Post by jeromemason on Aug 28, 2017 14:20:39 GMT -6
I know that my Motu 16a up samples the sample rate on the DAC side, no matter what sample rate you have the box set to, it multiplies it automatically. It would make sense to me that they would also make the DAC 32 float no matter the what you were outputting.
This could have been mentioned in this thread already and I missed it, if so, I apologize, for the rehash.
Post by jeromemason on Aug 27, 2017 21:52:31 GMT -6
I've been reading this trying to get a bearing on what this is all about and how I would use it.
So, if I am mixing a project that is 44/24 and I have 4 busses that are sent out of my Motu 16a and ran through my analog buss chain, does this mean I need to be dithering every track that's routed to it's respective analog buss, and then on my PRINT return track I should dither this as well?
Post by jeromemason on Aug 17, 2017 8:13:06 GMT -6
When I got started in this business I was 17, I'm 33 now, but back then I got hired a lot by local churches, choirs and concert venues to record and mix their big events and such. Your post kinda took me back in a nostalgic moment for a second there.
One thing that you might want to give some thought to is whether that's how it would sound sitting 10 rows back. It seems like everything is just slammed in my face and there's not a lot of dynamic movement. One way to create that with a recording like you have is with a basic hall that you would feed the each mic'd head/instrument into to get it having some depth, that'll let you pull back the faders on the spots/direct ins. Then, because the sax is carrying the melody I would feed that into the same room, and put a plate behind it, something like a 2.5s rolled up to about 400hz and slowly slide that up until the sax starts to feel like it's special. Doing all that will allow you to pull back some compression and the spot faders a bit.
Another thing I would do is if you can use a transient designer on his kick to bring out the sustain a bit it'll sound more natural. Those guys love to throw pillows and God knows what else in there, so using a TD will get those drums ringing a little which again will allow you to pull things back so your mix has more dynamic movement.
I normally don't do critiques, but it brought back a lot of nostalgia.
used to but focussed just on mixing starting bout 2000-2001...i always wanted to be the quarterback on the football team.......
That's one way to look at it I guess - so you want to be the producer?
I just don't understand why anyone would not want top follow a project all the way through. And the idea of having to deal with somebody else's messes doeasn't much appeal to me.
Probably a generational thing.
The tracks Billy's mixing are not messes, they're some of the best sounding recordings you'll ever hear. Billy take's an uncut diamond and polishes it to a #1 on the chart.
And producing, well when you're mixing full time you're producing too. You're not just throwing all the ingredients of the cake into a bowl and baking it, you're making some of the most critical "producing" decisions that will determine if that person is successful or not.
I've sat and learned/watched Billy mix dozens up dozens of tracks and what he does is nothing short of amazing. He's every bit of a producer as anyone else wearing it on their sleeve. It takes more guts and confidence to say "I'm a mixing engineer" instead of "well I'm a mixing engineer, producer, editor, vocal tuner, file bouncer, you name it."
What kind of gets me is that everyone for some reason believes that "Producer" is the top of the chain, well not really..... That's just a job, you're just as every bit in the food chain as the guy editing or tuning the vocals, you just happen to give your idea of how a song should go, to make it the best it can be. Well, isn't that everyone's job that is in that chain? Everyone plays a vital role in doing their part to make sure the artist/band can be the best they can be. I just never have understood why everyone hear's "Producer" and thinks that person is more valuable than anyone else, or has achieved more than anyone else.
Post by jeromemason on Jul 22, 2017 15:29:38 GMT -6
Still have one let guys. This does include the newest Burr Brown I/O chips and sidechain mod.
Like I'd said in the OP, if you've heard a PWM501 these are very similar with the mods, but because of the combination of the overeasy circuit and the ability to pass infinite on ratio you can do so much more. This will definitely be the last time I sell any of my gear, modded or not, so you should really grab it if you're look for a comp that can be used on just about anything and sound smooth and ultra detailed.