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Post by jeromemason on Feb 3, 2019 23:25:18 GMT -6
Mine lands Wednesday. I can't understand why there isn't more talk about these. 72s are supposed to be killer right? I'm pumped to add this flavor. I'll definitely be grabbing one or two if they pulled this off (which I really believe they have if they say they have, great company!) I just want to have some folks that know these pre's confirm. All the sound of these pre's are in the tubes and in the iron, especially the plate choke bit. I've heard a few clones, some even saying they match up but totally omit the plate choke! Plus, all of the clones I've heard don't have that creamy, silky tone. On acoustics there isn't a better amp out there. Also, if you've got the right mic for your voice these really do add something others out there just can't add, gorgeous mic pre's, my #1 favorite. Not too shabby on bass and across a drum buss either. I'd be getting them for running acoustics and vocals into that need that silky creamy thing.
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Post by jeromemason on Feb 2, 2019 13:22:25 GMT -6
Sound like a 33609 strapped across the drum buss to me.... Guitars are 12 string so not AS much has went into polishing them as you'd think, drums are a bit dry which may be why you felt it was "70's" or maybe dead in a space sense. One thing I've always noticed about girls is they're really good at coming up with super impressive reverb ideas. Anytime I mix for a girl, which is about 80% of the time these days, which is great too, is that they are really into the space around the vocal and they always want you to go wild there. Mixing guys, they want it dry with a little space behind it.
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Post by jeromemason on Jan 31, 2019 10:51:36 GMT -6
No one is making anything in this market that is similar to the KM54's or the AKG C28's which to me is really crazy. The circuits for the C12, 251 and C28 are really similar, so components wise you could save money in bulk. There have already been very good results using more affordable tubes than the AC701, or, you could use a standard sized tube like some of the C28's did instead. But, I can tell you no one I've seen has come up with a decent tube SDC that has that same big tone as the KM54 or C28. Avantone did a version of the C28's, and there are some Chinese knocks, but no one did a proper one that has a good capsule. If I were a Mic company I would come up with a kick ass SDC capsule and I would start putting the old familiar type circuits around it, maybe building some filter sections and or harmonic circuits around main circuit to create something that's a good sounding mic, but has that little extra tickle to your ear.
I agree with Bill here, build it so it last's, don't skimp and stand on the shoulders of giants, they got to the moon, with the technology we have now, you guys should be going to Mars.
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Post by jeromemason on Jan 30, 2019 21:26:30 GMT -6
Shows how long I've been out of the recording game....... I wouldn't ever use the mic if I did buy it and got a stupid deal on it, wouldn't do me any good.
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Post by jeromemason on Jan 30, 2019 21:06:27 GMT -6
I'm not sure I've seen an M49 clone? That's my favorite mic of all time.
EDIT: LOL I just saw someone had one for sale from Advanced Audio in the classifieds.
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Post by jeromemason on Jan 28, 2019 13:59:54 GMT -6
Eh, they'll produce 64 bit stuff eventually and find some way to be a have to have for the folks out there that don't understand how this stuff works. At least the folks that know or care to research this, they'll rest easy knowing there can't be any difference.
I remember when they talked about extending the response of analog to go up into 50khz and while that's not perceivable to our ears it somehow increases fidelity. So I would bet in 5 years they'll make 64 bit converters and come up with some way to say it provides unlimited headroom. After that we'll get the 128 bit ones and somehow that increases it further and the 64 bit ones are dogs shit.
It's all a game, but hey, maybe it'll make a difference, maybe we just think what we have now sounds great and when we hear these super converters we will enter another industry revolution. Who the hell knows.
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Post by jeromemason on Jan 27, 2019 21:45:40 GMT -6
So I just went ahead and got some decent optical cables and decided to return the Motu 8 D. I'm not sure of what was going on and I genuinely hope they figure out all the issues I was having, but I've work to do and after sitting and listening I honestly don't hear any difference with the optical connections. So that saves me about $700 because I ordered Mogami AES and Mogami Spidf cables as well. Hopefully Sweetwater doesn't dock me for it being here a shade under a month, but geez I was fighting with it the whole time, and I was on the phone with Motu and Dangerous for hours on this. It'd be the last dollar they get from me if they do, all I'll say. Joel over at Westlake Pro here in town is the best I've ever dealt with and I'd be happy to give them all of my purchases this year. There's no reason to buy expensive coax cables either. Just regular BNC cables you buy for your A/V equipment are fine. The SPDIF/AES transceivers only trigger on edges, so amplitude doesn't matter, and neither does bandwidth. SPDIF/AES does not have an "over" bit. There is no intelligence built in for something like that. I don't know if you meant that you think it's somehow getting "over" status through SPDIF, but it can't. I don't think any hardware actually reports overs. I'm under the assumption that it's always the DAW software that monitors it's own input streams for metering. Optical SPDIF shouldn't sound different. It's digital for one, so you either receive a bit, or you don't. It's also self-clocking biphase encoded, so the data is also it's own clock, and therefor jitter in the signal is a non-issue across the conductors. However, a lot of the time the optical transceivers are kinda shitty, so a lot of the older SPDIF/AESid devices would only run at 48K or below on TOSLINK optical. The whole "it blocks over's no matter how hot it hits your interface" just puzzles every person I've talked to. I have no clue how Chris Muth does this, but you can actually drive that converter so it's clipping so bad there is maybe 2db of headroom from RMS to Peak and it won't show not one over. There was something odd going on here and the way it was set up, either that or the Motu 8 D was defective and I'm starting to think more and more that it is. My system has never made a garble without triggering a DAE or Disk error and it was doing it 2 or 3 times on every playback of a track. My usage meters where all less than 50% and never spiked on the garbles, so it had to be something with that Motu 8 D. Now since I've got it out and back in the box and I'm running just the 16a, there's no clipping detected and not one garble. And, since it didn't make any perceivable sound difference to me now it seems like a dumb way to waste $700. I think when they credit my account I'm going to put that towards the Drawmer 1978 FET buss comp, I've heard some good things from guys about that box on the drum buss, and it's under $1k.
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Post by jeromemason on Jan 27, 2019 21:10:37 GMT -6
So I just went ahead and got some decent optical cables and decided to return the Motu 8 D. I'm not sure of what was going on and I genuinely hope they figure out all the issues I was having, but I've work to do and after sitting and listening I honestly don't hear any difference with the optical connections. So that saves me about $700 because I ordered Mogami AES and Mogami Spidf cables as well. Hopefully Sweetwater doesn't dock me for it being here a shade under a month, but geez I was fighting with it the whole time, and I was on the phone with Motu and Dangerous for hours on this. It'd be the last dollar they get from me if they do, all I'll say. Joel over at Westlake Pro here in town is the best I've ever dealt with and I'd be happy to give them all of my purchases this year.
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Post by jeromemason on Jan 27, 2019 13:10:10 GMT -6
Ok, I'll give that a go. Thanks!
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Post by jeromemason on Jan 27, 2019 12:10:58 GMT -6
No expert here, but I'd think this would have to be some sort of data flag, like Dangerous turns it off and the one MOTU turns it back on. 0 should be 0. A data stream should be a data stream, there's no conversion. I'd ask Dangerous also. If the one MOTU box does it, there have to be others out there that do also. Without an explanation of how dangerous makes 0 not report as an over, it's guesswork. Thanks for responding.... Something is really not right here with this box and it's integration. Motu is supposed to be trying to replicate it right now, but they didn't rule out that my unit could be bad. I'm also getting some garbling every so often, and it's happening every time I playback a song, not in the same place. It doesn't tell Pro Tools either because I'm not getting any errors and I have the box unchecked to ignore pops and clicks. It's really really odd. It's almost to the point where I might have to just return this box and scrap this idea and go get some really good Light Pipe cables and stick with the 16a. Even still, I believe I heard the garbling even when bypassing the Motu 8 D, so I've got a problem there and I'd love to figure this out because I've got an EP, an LP and another LP to edit and right now I'm stranded in the Atlantic. I don't know if having the Motu 8 D and the Motu 16a running AVB is causing this or if I've somehow changed something, but I know it's not DAE or Disk errors, because, monitoring my memory and system usage it's running at half capacity. If anyone out there could help, that may of had the same problems, please do shout out your fixes or ideas on how to fix this. I need to be working and my system is shut down because all the shops are closed and it's pointless to work if my PRINT is going to have garbling. Any help, any ideas?? Really would be grateful to anyone that can help! Jerome
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Post by jeromemason on Jan 25, 2019 12:01:29 GMT -6
Yeah, a lot of guys can have some "honk" on their voice and while the 251 doesn't exactly exaggerate this, it doesn't help IMO. M49 and U47 really help in this case, and yes, while being thick, when you're a mixing guy like me, it's similar to a mastering engineer wanting us to leave or exaggerate the top end and low end so they can sculpt that, same deal, I'd much rather get a vocal that's too thick on the material but also is forgiving in the "honk" area so I can use my tools (multi band comp/eq) to sculpt the vocal to fit. However, if I'm given a vocal with "honk" it's incredibly hard to remove that, or at least get rid of it's footprints. So, if your voice has that 2k-5k bump when you're in your head voice, you would probably want to look at the M49/U47/U67 styles. If you've got a voice that is similar to Josh Turner, a 251 will make you sound great, big open and airy.
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Post by jeromemason on Jan 24, 2019 23:49:10 GMT -6
Well they're basically the same circuit and are the same capsule, the ELA 250/1 go cathode biased that I imagine was meant to be something easier but turned the C12 into a beast with the same silky top but a beefier lower mid. C12's are not my favorite on vocals honestly, but damn anytime I get a session that has "OHC12" or of the nature on it, damn they just are magic on overheads, make the whole drum kit sound "real" C12's are also totally amazing on Yamaha C5 or any great grand piano for that matter.
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Post by jeromemason on Jan 24, 2019 22:22:14 GMT -6
Well, when I was in the recording side of this business the first mic I'd grab for a female was an ELA 251. If it were a male I'd grab an M49 or a U47. The thing you want with the girls is that air and some body, the ELA 251 (good ones) have a lot of low mid body and a very silky smooth top end.
With the guys, you want a mic that really grabs the "bucket" or as I've heard it "the growl in the vowel" The M49 and U47 do that extremely well, and so does the 251, but under compression to really pull the bucket out, the M49 or U47 just reacts better.
So, I would say as well that the 251 is more suited for females, or in my opinion, it would be the mic I grabbed first for a female, not so much a male, but it really depends on the vocal, sometimes they're perfect for the guy or sometimes you might need a U87 or U67. This is why I would suggest to anyone just opening up shop to buy 8 good clones rather than 1 expensive real deal.
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Post by jeromemason on Jan 24, 2019 18:23:35 GMT -6
I don't really get all worked up anymore with these since I started the monthly thing..... It'd be nice if they added I/O to native PT's and increased the track count some. They need to do some other things like being able to adjust the level of preamp input rather than having to adjust the hardware. Cubase has this and you can crank things however you want and still get the same nice recording level as anything else, really helps in tracking.
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Post by jeromemason on Jan 24, 2019 13:07:14 GMT -6
I've bought the Motu 8 D to be a digital interface for running AES/EBU from my Dangerous Convert AD+ and also running Spidf out to my DAC. I'm doing AVB with my 16a so the Motu 8 D is going AVB to the 16a like this, 8 D >AVB16a>To Computer. So basically the 16a is handing all the information to the computer, it basically looks like one big interface to the computer and all the routing is completely done over AVB between the two Motu units.
I want to have a thread on this while it gets figured out because others could run into this.
So first off the Convert AD+ has a feature called Peak Guard and it basically tricks the interface into thinking that there is no clipping where there actually is. I'm not sure how they do it, but it's something to do with not relaying 0dbfs no matter how hard you're hitting it. The Convert AD+s' digital outs are all active at the same time and all are spitting out the exact same information, the same 1's and 0's. With all that said, if I tell my DAW to take the Optical In from the 16a (which the Convert AD+ is feeding simultaneously) I can absolutely crush the converter and not one peak warning goes off in the DAW, but, if I switch over to the Motu 8 D, bam there is the peak overs going off. This also happens if I make a new session, select the 8 D as the interface and feed it the same crushed signal, so I know it's nothing to do with the AVB or 16a, it's all in the Motu 8 D. So my question is; is it possible the Motu 8 D has some extremely small buffer that is like .0001db over 0dbfs? I would understand why they would do this, to keep people from clipping before they even clip. And this could be in the software because it's so important now days that there are absolutely no peak overs for the MFiT iTunes rules. But, Motu shouldn't be taking it upon themselves to just do that because they don't know what other pieces of gear is out there etc.
So, this definitely negates me even having the Motu 8 D because I can't clip my Convert AD+, which is when it starts to impart some really nice mojo. And, I don't feel like I should have to be doing workarounds either to use it. I'd really love to stay with the AES and Spidf and not be doing Optical, and mainly because Optical has always made me nervous. So does anyone happen to know what could be going on here? Has anyone ran into anything like this before and is this something Motu, possibly, should address with a fix. I have a very strong feeling other companies will start doing this kind of thing with mastering type A to D converters, it's quite genius.
I also am trying to get to Motu on this, but they're running skeleton crews over there because of NAMM, but if I find anything substantial out from them I will update this thread as a reference for the future.
Thanks!
-J
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Post by jeromemason on Jan 23, 2019 14:05:22 GMT -6
He's going to make so much freaking money off this mic..... I have no clue why on earth someone hasn't bankrolled a company that has a good reputation for finding a way to create the same essential signal path on analog devices that are the staples of studios, but Warm is making it hard for anyone to want to hang on to those vintage 84's or 251's or damn near anything now because the only thing I can see that is effected is that 3% of mojo the old components gives vintage.
I've said for a while now that because of the tick down in pay from labels, whoever started making gear that allowed the shops that do a majority of the cutting to reduce overhead while sustaining quality would become a millionaire. It won't be long at all before these studios (other than Black Bird) start to sell off those vintage mic lockers and vintage rack gear for something that is very very close. I know for a fact that guys using clones from companies who really care about the sound/quality produce equally as good of tracks as what comes from the big studios. A producer I do a lot of work for, one project he sent me last year the band put up extra money to cut in a big studio in town, well I sent him a text asking him if he'd changed things because the sound didn't have the same feel and I liked the other way, that's when he told me they cut it in a big studio and not in his and that blew my mind.
Good quality components and careful calibration will yield great gear. And, because he doesn't have the massive patch bays and long tie lines his sound quality from his studio actually has a more robust and "pretty" sound. Crazy, but it's extremely true. I told him to up his studio cost's and let all the future projects hear the difference if that ever came up again. So far, I haven't mixed anything that wasn't cut in his place since.
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Post by jeromemason on Jan 19, 2019 19:36:16 GMT -6
Yeah, I'm going to grab the boards and front panel after I get my next check, labels are getting slower and slower I've been told :/
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Post by jeromemason on Jan 19, 2019 19:34:14 GMT -6
Thats a great work around! Makes sense. still would've been nice. Oh well. yeah, it would have, but for me, the threshold is the FIRST pot that I wouldn't care as much about. Almost all the "inputs" (as well as outputs) and/or "thresholds" on my outboard remain constant and I push or pull into them with a trim. Less stuff to recall in the hybrid setup.... That's how I do it.... My attack and release are the only knobs I touch and I only do that if something doesn't feel right. On my buss compressor the mix knob I will sometimes adjust as well, just depends on the style of music. Those DIYRE EQ's even stay static, rolling the top off with light boost (even with 3 pairs of transformers in the path) cures the digitius and kills most of the phasey high end I used to hear when I would flip in M/S on the Satori. I would love to try one of these boxes, I bet they would sound really great in front of an SSL style, maybe half the compression on both or do a slow attack/release into a slow attack release. I haven't done that one the buss, but diode bridge comps do sound really good when they're just kissing. I'd love to have one as a permanent drum buss compressor, at that price point I may just do that after I give it a try
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Post by jeromemason on Jan 18, 2019 18:44:04 GMT -6
I have a pair of large 3-way speakers which fill the room and still sound pretty accurate. (With the help of Sonarworks Reference 4) I also have a single mono Avantone speaker to check things on. But.... still kinda want a pair of the classic NS-10m. #1 - I feel I've gone this long in my recording journey (10+ years) and its just damn time. #2 - I would like to learn those speakers specifically, in the chance I am in another studio with them, then I understand what they should sound like. #3 - I make alot of 60's/70's influenced type stuff. I'm not sure those even came out until the 70's, but I feel my tracks should sound good through those speakers for some reason. I understand the times are changing and not relevant as they once were, but honestly I don't care and I'm stuck in my own little world of retro sounds/tones. Well, if you just have to have them..... I would watch Reverb.com and E(vil)bay for a pair of Studio's with consecutive serials if you really want to shoot for what we used to look for. Make sure they're shipping from the US not Japan and read the description really well before buying. Some cones might have a yellowish look, that generally ok? But, I would really want them with nice white cones. When it comes to amps any decent studio grade will do. Also if it's on Ebay just make sure the seller has a great rating, most likely you'll get a pair from a studio liquidation. Again I can't stress enough, if it were me and I had the bug to get a set of those I'd buy the Avatones, if Sweetwater is selling the drivers as drop in replacements they must be exactly like plain NS10's. You're going to pay for an original set, I'd imagine between $800 and $1,500 for a good pair, maybe more. Everyone see's them in the big control rooms and equates them with the quality of the API or SSL console they're sitting on, so they are willing to shell out big money for them. Now, if you're in another studio that has them with a pair of barefoots, Focal's, Amphions, ATC's etc. beside them, and you switch over to them and all the guys in the room look at you like you're nuts, just smile and say exactly this.. "Oh haha man, you still have them wired in! Just checking, I always do that" 8) I kid I kid.
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Post by jeromemason on Jan 18, 2019 14:43:45 GMT -6
Avantone started making a new version that is CLA branded. I don't know if they modeled them after his or not, but I'm sure you could find that out. I would honestly buy those instead of the others, I'm sure they sound spot on. I believe even Sweetwater sells the drivers as drop in replacements for original NS-10m's. They're hell of a lot cheaper too. I used to believe in them, but since the modern stereo world and earbud/beats over ear sensation came out I honestly didn't have use for them anymore. It used to be if your mix sounded decent on them it'd sound great everywhere else, these days with car systems, earbuds and the highly detailed over ears are how people listen to music they're not logical. Honestly you'd be better going and spending the money on a little bluetooth speaker, the ones at Walmart, the 808 mono one that's like $20 will be totally fine. Other than that I would look into Focal, Amphion etc. speakers to get a good reference as that's what is in most of the studios around town now, and ATC if you have that kind of budget.
Long story short, it's got to a point where you need to make your mix sound good on a set of monitors that portray the full spectrum and are good at relaying dynamics and transient detail.
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Post by jeromemason on Jan 16, 2019 22:19:36 GMT -6
Yeah so this baby is very different from the original IMO. Still gives a "largeness" to whatever is going through it, but compression is very sensitive. I honestly thought mine wasn't calibrated right or something but it takes a bit to get the hang of where there sweet spot is on this compressor. It's very much like the Retro 176. I just had that box in here a couple of weeks ago and printed a vocal through it, pulling that same vocal back up and comparing this compressor to the 176 it definitely has the mojo. I will say though, and this is not any different than I have always used compression on vocals, but if you really want this compressor or the 176 to shine, put a fast aggressive compressor in front of it, like an 1176 or even another 176 with slow attack fast release and pretty much pounding it. Running the Doublewide II after that and using it to smooth things out and pin things down, it's really really great. Make no mistake though, you could use this as your fast compressor as well, this little box has some ass to it and meanness! Downright meanness! I also feel that when you switch between "single" and "double" there is more happening with this comp. It pretty much is a different compressor, making me feel like it was more like an old Collins in "single" and more like a fat version of an 1176 in "double."
These are just my first impressions and I've only used it on female vocals so far. I will say that working with your converters input and output level can make this box sound even better. I pulled the output of my converters down and the input up a little so I can have more throw with the "input" on the box. If you run line level it has a massive amount of headroom but I found the input knob can be a little too course, trimming down the converter output allows much more fine adjustment of compression.
I'll put more as I get familiar and fully confident with this comp, but it's staying that's for sure. I am going to reach out to Retro and make sure it's supposed to have that much gain on the input stage though, it's massive! You can dial in probably -25db of freaking compression like that.
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Post by jeromemason on Jan 16, 2019 13:08:38 GMT -6
Well I've got one in the rack..... it's quite interesting and it's definitely a different compressor all together. Instead of the quad pack of tubes like the original it's just a pair, a 12AU7 and a 12AT7. What is good about this is that you have a much larger variety of tube flavors to swap out. There are some really nice 12AT7 tubes out there that impart more harmonics and there are some that are audiophile grade for extremely detailed and super quiet operation.
If someone with the original wants to post up some vocal/acoustic/bass etc. files I'll gladly do a A/B, you just dial the same settings and compression as I do. It also doesn't have the weird off switch which you had to turn the release knob clockwise to turn it off. The first original I demo'd I thought I'd broke because I didn't know this and couldn't get it to turn on, it wasn't until I wanted to see if the pots were detented that I actually turned it on!
Let me know if anyone has anything they want ran through it, I've got a little free time before diving into an EP, at that point I won't be able to dick around with any of the settings on it.
Jerome
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Post by jeromemason on Jan 16, 2019 13:01:10 GMT -6
Why buy a send and blend box when you could just get a little mixer to do the job and so much more? Well what I'd say is that when you're doing a quality/cost ratio this box would really jump out of the pack. It's designed specifically to do this and they are the best ones out there. I am going to go on and get my board to be able to parallel the PRR-176.
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Post by jeromemason on Jan 15, 2019 23:28:13 GMT -6
I was thinking the same. Been eye balling this comp for a while, and thinking that if I get one I’d grab an outboard parallel blender, I think TK Audio has a 500 series one. Idk, maybe It’s not to late in production for it to be modded with a wet/dry knob? I’ve been looking for a wet/dry box and found that Serpent and TK make them (actually TK has 2) my problem is the awkward front patching and that they run $400-$500 plus the cost of slot(s) I did see that Avenson used to make a 1/2 rack one but it’s discontuned and was $600 - I thought of getting the little Radial 2:1 mixer and mulling through my patchbay as those are XLR and run $130. anyone know of any other solutions? This is what everyone needs, including me! I don't know why I haven't spent the little money this cost's to build and get it done. Serpent Send N Blend
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Post by jeromemason on Jan 15, 2019 14:36:26 GMT -6
Doesn't his comp operate in true stereo all the time? The S/C is simply that, removing the selected freq from the S/C.
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