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Post by ragan on Apr 4, 2019 20:01:30 GMT -6
Yeah I just meant in the mind of the general consumer. For me, if it’s the same piece of equipment, functionally, I’d of course take the lower priced/more efficiently produced piece. The "general" consumer these days is an idiot. I'd rather pay twice as much for something that will last a lifetime than pay half as much for something that fails right after the warranty expires. Ok. That’s a sound sentiment but not what we were talking about. We were talking about the same chunk of material being made in Germany or China and various brand perceptions and irrational biases.
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 4, 2019 20:22:11 GMT -6
The "general" consumer these days is an idiot. I'd rather pay twice as much for something that will last a lifetime than pay half as much for something that fails right after the warranty expires. Ok. That’s a sound sentiment but not what we were talking about. We were talking about the same chunk of material being made in Germany or China and various brand perceptions and irrational biases. I have not seen anything made in China that is actually built to last. I've seen lots of expensive products, but they're all untimately throwaway crap, like $800 iPhones, etc. NONE of what I've seen is built to last, at best it's built to last the planned obsolescence. And I, for one, do not accept planned obsolescence for audio equipment, which is an investment that should last decades of round the clock use.
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Post by ragan on Apr 4, 2019 21:16:43 GMT -6
Ok. That’s a sound sentiment but not what we were talking about. We were talking about the same chunk of material being made in Germany or China and various brand perceptions and irrational biases. I have not seen anything made in China that is actually built to last. I've seen lots of expensive products, but they're all untimately throwaway crap, like $800 iPhones, etc. NONE of what I've seen is built to last, at best it's built to last the planned obsolescence. And I, for one, do not accept planned obsolescence for audio equipment, which is an investment that should last decades of round the clock use. Ok, well, we're all entitled to our own anecdotally-based rhetorical dogma but don't hold it against me if I'm not holding my breath waiting to see the exhaustive study you did on iPhone reliability and intentional, "planned obsolescence"-based device failure.
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Post by svart on Apr 4, 2019 21:57:34 GMT -6
I have not seen anything made in China that is actually built to last. I've seen lots of expensive products, but they're all untimately throwaway crap, like $800 iPhones, etc. NONE of what I've seen is built to last, at best it's built to last the planned obsolescence. And I, for one, do not accept planned obsolescence for audio equipment, which is an investment that should last decades of round the clock use. Ok, well, we're all entitled to our own anecdotally-based rhetorical dogma but don't hold it against me if I'm not holding my breath waiting to see the exhaustive study you did on iPhone reliability and intentional, "planned obsolescence"-based device failure. There's no relays or punch cards so clearly they aren't high quality.
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 5, 2019 5:43:34 GMT -6
I have not seen anything made in China that is actually built to last. I've seen lots of expensive products, but they're all untimately throwaway crap, like $800 iPhones, etc. NONE of what I've seen is built to last, at best it's built to last the planned obsolescence. And I, for one, do not accept planned obsolescence for audio equipment, which is an investment that should last decades of round the clock use. Ok, well, we're all entitled to our own anecdotally-based rhetorical dogma but don't hold it against me if I'm not holding my breath waiting to see the exhaustive study you did on iPhone reliability and intentional, "planned obsolescence"-based device failure. My point was that the iPhone, although one of the more reliable of disposable widgets, still gets obsoleted at an artificially great rate compared to the investment. A 3 or 4 year old iPhone is essentially worthless. And Apple continually churns the feature list to ensure that people update their phones about every two years. Not a very good ROI.
Anyway, it's just an example.
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Post by subspace on Apr 5, 2019 8:39:41 GMT -6
That's what I paid, but it's a $30 flat shipping charge for the whole order, so I threw in a Midas L10 at the same price to save on the bundled shipping cost.
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Post by ragan on Apr 5, 2019 9:31:39 GMT -6
Ok, well, we're all entitled to our own anecdotally-based rhetorical dogma but don't hold it against me if I'm not holding my breath waiting to see the exhaustive study you did on iPhone reliability and intentional, "planned obsolescence"-based device failure. My point was that the iPhone, although one of the more reliable of disposable widgets, still gets obsoleted at an artificially great rate compared to the investment. A 3 or 4 year old iPhone is essentially worthless. And Apple continually churns the feature list to ensure that people update their phones about every two years. Not a very good ROI.
Anyway, it's just an example.
Ok. I do not see how Apple releasing new features that entice some people to buy new products has anything to do with the question of Neumman making the exact same capsule in China vs in Germany. And for what it's worth, I have a 4 year old iPhone that still works like the day I got it.
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Post by Mister Chase on Apr 5, 2019 10:17:42 GMT -6
Ok, well, we're all entitled to our own anecdotally-based rhetorical dogma but don't hold it against me if I'm not holding my breath waiting to see the exhaustive study you did on iPhone reliability and intentional, "planned obsolescence"-based device failure. My point was that the iPhone, although one of the more reliable of disposable widgets, still gets obsoleted at an artificially great rate compared to the investment. A 3 or 4 year old iPhone is essentially worthless. And Apple continually churns the feature list to ensure that people update their phones about every two years. Not a very good ROI.
Anyway, it's just an example.
That has everything to do with a company mentality and direction and almost nothing to do with manufacturing potentials which is the argument here. China will build you what you want, how you want it.
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Post by matt@IAA on Apr 5, 2019 10:20:58 GMT -6
...mostly.
I have heard about companies having difficulty getting compliance to specs, such as component substitution with “equivalents”. Chinese sub vendor documentation is also not always completely reliable. That’s the real reason in industrial settings Chinese products often aren’t allowed - because you can’t trust the certs.
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Post by Mister Chase on Apr 5, 2019 10:26:20 GMT -6
I am sure that is true with some factories. However there are about a gazillion there and some far better than others. Finding the right one is the key.
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Post by matt@IAA on Apr 5, 2019 10:28:49 GMT -6
From my understanding that’s really not true. It’s not a competitive market. Most of the products of a given type are made in one factory. As far as I know there are only a very small number of factories making audio gear, and most made in China products are made by this small group of companies.
I have friends who did sourcing from China and it’s a surprisingly small world at the industrial manufacturing level. I could be wrong about audio though, I’m by no means an expert.
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Post by Mister Chase on Apr 5, 2019 10:32:19 GMT -6
If we are talking specifically about microphones probably true. I was speaking more general manufacturing as others were in this thread.
I'm the pickup world there are dozens of magnet foundries there all putting out a wide variety of qualities in alnico products etc just as an example.
Depends on what we are talking about exactly, I think.
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 5, 2019 15:18:28 GMT -6
My point was that the iPhone, although one of the more reliable of disposable widgets, still gets obsoleted at an artificially great rate compared to the investment. A 3 or 4 year old iPhone is essentially worthless. And Apple continually churns the feature list to ensure that people update their phones about every two years. Not a very good ROI.
Anyway, it's just an example.
Ok. I do not see how Apple releasing new features that entice some people to buy new products has anything to do with the question of Neumman making the exact same capsule in China vs in Germany. And for what it's worth, I have a 4 year old iPhone that still works like the day I got it. I don't either, nor do I see where you got that from.
FWIW, if Neumann were to make "the same capsule" in China I seriously doubt that it would be the same capsule.
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 5, 2019 15:25:20 GMT -6
I am sure that is true with some factories. However there are about a gazillion there and some far better than others. Finding the right one is the key. I've heard lots of stories about companies arranging with a company to get a product like a condenser capsule made exactly to their specs, getting in a first shipment that was OK, then getting a second shipment that was 50% rejects or worse. The companies give you their best when you're a new customer and then when they get the contract for the big, regular orders the QC goes all to hell.
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 5, 2019 15:29:35 GMT -6
...mostly. I have heard about companies having difficulty getting compliance to specs, such as component substitution with “equivalents”. Chinese sub vendor documentation is also not always completely reliable. That’s the real reason in industrial settings Chinese products often aren’t allowed - because you can’t trust the certs. Exactly.
You contract for one product and after the sample run what they start shipping you is different and cheaper.
I've had people tell me that the only way around it is to have your own man move to China and inspect the product constantly, looking for substitutions and laspses in quality control.
People compare China now with Japan in the '60s but there are major cultural differences. The Japanese have always had a tradition of striving for high quality in their products and didn't need outside supervision to want to make the best they possibly could. The Chinese, not so much, and what they might have had was pretty much wiped out by the Communist purges that killed most of their top scientists, intellectuals, and technical people.
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Post by ragan on Apr 5, 2019 15:44:25 GMT -6
Ok. I do not see how Apple releasing new features that entice some people to buy new products has anything to do with the question of Neumman making the exact same capsule in China vs in Germany. And for what it's worth, I have a 4 year old iPhone that still works like the day I got it. I don't either, nor do I see where you got that from.
FWIW, if Neumann were to make "the same capsule" in China I seriously doubt that it would be the same capsule.
I got it from the conversation you entered when you quoted and responded to me a couple of posts ago.
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 5, 2019 15:55:19 GMT -6
I don't either, nor do I see where you got that from.
FWIW, if Neumann were to make "the same capsule" in China I seriously doubt that it would be the same capsule.
I got it from the conversation you entered when you quoted and responded to me a couple of posts ago. Well, obviously what you were thinking when you read it was not what I was thinking when I wrote it.
And by "exciting new features" did you mean things like eliminiating the normal headphone jack to force people to buy yet another otherwise useless Apple product? Or any of the other deliberately incompatible changes that they continually introduce? Or making new versions of the OS deliberately incompatible with earlier hardware?
After all, pretty much everybody already has a pretty serviceable "smart" phone who wants one. So now they need to figure out how to sell widgets to people that they don't really need and probably wouldn't want without a high pressure media blitz.
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 5, 2019 16:16:01 GMT -6
And for what it's worth, I have a 4 year old iPhone that still works like the day I got it. Well, that's nice as far as it goes. I have an AT&T push button desk phone (dual tone and pulse) that still works like the day it was made almost 50 years ago. What are the odds that your iPhone will last even half that time? A quarter, even?
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Post by Mister Chase on Apr 5, 2019 16:19:56 GMT -6
And for what it's worth, I have a 4 year old iPhone that still works like the day I got it. Well, that's nice as far as it goes. I have an AT&T push button desk phone (dual tone and pulse) that still works like the day it was made almost 50 years ago. What are the odds that your iPhone will last even half that time? A quarter, even? The iPhone can do way more than that phone though by far. It's more powerful than the biggest and best desktop computers from not that long ago. Nothing can beat an old bell phone for just a phone. But a cell phone is a computer. A very tiny one. Totally different industry really.
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Post by m03 on Apr 5, 2019 16:28:35 GMT -6
And for what it's worth, I have a 4 year old iPhone that still works like the day I got it. Well, that's nice as far as it goes. I have an AT&T push button desk phone (dual tone and pulse) that still works like the day it was made almost 50 years ago. What are the odds that your iPhone will last even half that time? A quarter, even? How's the quality of the camera on it? How well does it run Google Maps? Can it give me the real-time position of the Uber ride I'm waiting on, while I reply to my Slack channel and upload the picture I just took with it to Instagram?
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Post by Mister Chase on Apr 5, 2019 16:28:51 GMT -6
I am sure that is true with some factories. However there are about a gazillion there and some far better than others. Finding the right one is the key. I've heard lots of stories about companies arranging with a company to get a product like a condenser capsule made exactly to their specs, getting in a first shipment that was OK, then getting a second shipment that was 50% rejects or worse. The companies give you their best when you're a new customer and then when they get the contract for the big, regular orders the QC goes all to hell. I'm sure that does happen. And recourse against a Chinese company...well good luck. But that isn't all the time. It is *possible*. Though I never said it wouldn't be challenging. I've dealt with USA foundries and manufacturers who have basically all but told me to go f*** myself. USA manufacturing isn't exactly in good shape either, though in different ways for different reasons. I'm just glad I'm not trying to get a piece of gear made for production.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Apr 5, 2019 16:30:06 GMT -6
I am sure that is true with some factories. However there are about a gazillion there and some far better than others. Finding the right one is the key. I've heard lots of stories about companies arranging with a company to get a product like a condenser capsule made exactly to their specs, getting in a first shipment that was OK, then getting a second shipment that was 50% rejects or worse. The companies give you their best when you're a new customer and then when they get the contract for the big, regular orders the QC goes all to hell. You have to have your own QC supervisions at the plant at the time of production or yes in the past they would ship you their generic OEM product. There has been less and less of this though as time goes on.but you still have to do some QC and build in some real penalties for not making spec. The other thing to remember if you have been hyping a new product and created demand / orders, you might have dug your own grave. Remember this stuff ships half way around the world by boat, they are not going to build a new run or correct the problem till your order gets back there. Even then the need to fit it their production schedule add in the ocean voyage back to you and time in customs both ways you could be screwed. This is why on the lower end substitution is tolerated. Also what happens to all those below spec boxes with your name on them?🤔
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Post by svart on Apr 5, 2019 16:47:13 GMT -6
I've heard lots of stories about companies arranging with a company to get a product like a condenser capsule made exactly to their specs, getting in a first shipment that was OK, then getting a second shipment that was 50% rejects or worse. The companies give you their best when you're a new customer and then when they get the contract for the big, regular orders the QC goes all to hell. I'm sure that does happen. And recourse against a Chinese company...well good luck. But that isn't all the time. It is *possible*. Though I never said it wouldn't be challenging. I've dealt with USA foundries and manufacturers who have basically all but told me to go f*** myself. USA manufacturing isn't exactly in good shape either, though in different ways for different reasons. I'm just glad I'm not trying to get a piece of gear made for production. Same. John's using a few anecdotes to justify his position, but as a person who actually deals with Asian production, I've found these stories are generally mythical, with folks whom are sure this happens having heard the stories from someone else who also heard this happens.. I've had bad dealings with USA companies, some in the UK, some in India, and yes, China. It's going to happen occasionally, that's just human nature. Modern Chinese production isn't a monopoly, and just like here, the bad eggs go out of business quickly, any are replaced by those vying for business by doing better work.
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 5, 2019 17:18:37 GMT -6
Well, that's nice as far as it goes. I have an AT&T push button desk phone (dual tone and pulse) that still works like the day it was made almost 50 years ago. What are the odds that your iPhone will last even half that time? A quarter, even? The iPhone can do way more than that phone though by far. It's more powerful than the biggest and best desktop computers from not that long ago. Nothing can beat an old bell phone for just a phone. But a cell phone is a computer. A very tiny one. Totally different industry really. Yeah, I know. I don't have an iPhone but I do have a typical dumbphone and it's a royal PITA to NOT use all the crap in it.
I use a phone for voice and text (because some people I know don't answer voice - heck, I don't answer voice much of the time - too many junk calls) but I try not to use anything else. I do have Uber and Air BnB on it for traveling but that's it - not even a dumb game.
Frankly I think that a lot of the "features" on todays phones are nothing but time wasters and tend to discourage p[erson to person socializing.
And of course the makers just keep piling on the unneccessary "features" because it keeps people buying new widgets they don't really need.
Not even gonna start on how the phone has been a major force in destroying the commercial music business and totally devaluing music.
Edit: And I don't WANT a "powerful computer" that fits in my pocket that has a screen that's too small to do anything useful on and is barely legible for text.
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Post by matt@IAA on Apr 5, 2019 17:21:44 GMT -6
I think one of the differences is that if you're Behringer, it's no big deal. You send your QC guy over, you threaten them to comply or else, and stuff generally goes well for you. If you're a small volume manufacturer, you have no leverage at all. And if a local vendor is screwing you, it's not that difficult to stop by, have a face to face with the owner and whatnot.
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