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Post by Tbone81 on Apr 2, 2019 10:57:40 GMT -6
Maybe 🤔 😜. I think BLA is pretty generous with this price point. Many other companies would jack the price way up for the cla mods. Its a selling point but they aren’t really cashing in on it. Considering you can get kits, or other clones for half the price of BLA (with their profit margin intact).. I think a 2x markup for CLA mods is kinda steep, no? Yeah but when you figure in the cost of running a business (marketing, insurance, payroll taxes, rent, utilities, distribution etc) I'd bet that none of these clones are making a killing on a cost-per-unit basis, this one included. Volume is where they make their money.
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Post by the other mark williams on Apr 2, 2019 11:18:59 GMT -6
Considering you can get kits, or other clones for half the price of BLA (with their profit margin intact).. I think a 2x markup for CLA mods is kinda steep, no? Yeah but when you figure in the cost of running a business (marketing, insurance, payroll taxes, rent, utilities, distribution etc) I'd bet that none of these clones are making a killing on a cost-per-unit basis, this one included. Volume is where they make their money. Plus when you consider the competitors in the price class (Stam, Audioscape, Warm) and then add the "CLA mystique," I think the price probably makes sense.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Apr 2, 2019 11:37:24 GMT -6
Considering you can get kits, or other clones for half the price of BLA (with their profit margin intact).. I think a 2x markup for CLA mods is kinda steep, no? Yeah but when you figure in the cost of running a business (marketing, insurance, payroll taxes, rent, utilities, distribution etc) I'd bet that none of these clones are making a killing on a cost-per-unit basis, this one included. Volume is where they make their money. Yep a kit is a totally unfair price comparison, the costs of labor, QC and dealer markup alone make this a bargain compared to a kit. I keep saying this but the cost of doing business is always higher than the cost of the components.
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 2, 2019 11:39:20 GMT -6
Man. Tough effing room. I didn’t take the time to scrutinize the picture that much. On first look, it looked more like vintage guts than other clones. My sarcasm is purely directed at the endless CLA-marketing. The box itself could prove to be awesome. Yeah. For me the "CLA marketing" wouldf be a reason I wouldn't buy something. Not that I have anything against CLA really, I'm just sick of his marketing and don't care for most of his work.
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 2, 2019 11:40:51 GMT -6
Considering you can get kits, or other clones for half the price of BLA (with their profit margin intact).. I think a 2x markup for CLA mods is kinda steep, no? Yeah but when you figure in the cost of running a business (marketing, insurance, payroll taxes, rent, utilities, distribution etc) I'd bet that none of these clones are making a killing on a cost-per-unit basis, this one included. Volume is where they make their money. Labor is worth something.
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Post by svart on Apr 2, 2019 11:58:07 GMT -6
Considering you can get kits, or other clones for half the price of BLA (with their profit margin intact).. I think a 2x markup for CLA mods is kinda steep, no? Yeah but when you figure in the cost of running a business (marketing, insurance, payroll taxes, rent, utilities, distribution etc) I'd bet that none of these clones are making a killing on a cost-per-unit basis, this one included. Volume is where they make their money. So that makes them "worth" 2x the cost of someone else like Klark Teknik because they aren't smart about their production? That just means they are 2x less cost effective to me. The kits already have a certain degree of business expense and profit included for the people who bought the parts and sold them to you. It takes me about an hour and a half to build an 1176 clone from a kit. An hour "costs" me about 55$. It takes a machine about 30 seconds to stuff a PCB. Doing it by hand doesn't make it more reliable or more desirable. It just makes it more expensive. If someone tells me that it's "worth" 2x because it was handmade, I got some bad news about economics and efficiency for them.. Anyway, an 1176 is a known quantity in that there isn't much deviation from what goes into them. The BOM is pretty standardized, and volume pricing isn't going to save you 400$, it's going to save you maybe 50$. If their production unit COGS is more than 150$, I'd be very surprised.
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Post by guitfiddler on Apr 2, 2019 12:01:16 GMT -6
I’m always interested in every 1176. It’s always a search to find that right tone! Just curious how consistent in sound between each unit? I would like to shootout and compare a bunch of 1176’s in my room. Fun stuff!
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Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 2, 2019 12:20:10 GMT -6
I think the point is the 1176 modeled had some special mojo, so they copied that, mods and all. So it's evidently, not just another 1176 clone.
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Post by BradM on Apr 2, 2019 12:27:19 GMT -6
I'm aware of the insides of the vintage units. My reference was to the following: Multiple loose wires floating. Transformer isn't PCB mount type but PCB is. Power Tx secondary bypass connector. Power Tx primary don't connect to IEC. UV meter wires have a connector in the middle of the loom. That purple pcb doesn't look like it production part. Mistake on PCB - 2 PTP resistors and cap. P.S have a lot of respect for the PCB layouts on your products. Thanks! What I suspect is that BLA religiously copied CLA's beloved unit down to every last wart and sketchy modification so that any parasitic effects of messy wiring, scabbed on resistors was captured exactly as it exists in the golden unit. I imagine those are the "mistakes" you are seeing in the pics. I think that authenticy is kind of cool. It literally is a clone of a battle tested unit. Hand labor always drives cost. They certainly could have made a less expensvie machine-assembled unit and verified it against the original, but perhaps that wouldn't have been as fun for them or had the same marketing value. Could someone buy one of these units, reverse engineer the quirky mods, and then miniaturize it all on a machine-assembled module that sounds 90-95% the same? Very likely. Brad
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Post by Tbone81 on Apr 2, 2019 12:39:32 GMT -6
Yeah but when you figure in the cost of running a business (marketing, insurance, payroll taxes, rent, utilities, distribution etc) I'd bet that none of these clones are making a killing on a cost-per-unit basis, this one included. Volume is where they make their money. So that makes them "worth" 2x the cost of someone else like Klark Teknik because they aren't smart about their production? That just means they are 2x less cost effective to me. The kits already have a certain degree of business expense and profit included for the people who bought the parts and sold them to you. It takes me about an hour and a half to build an 1176 clone from a kit. An hour "costs" me about 55$. It takes a machine about 30 seconds to stuff a PCB. Doing it by hand doesn't make it more reliable or more desirable. It just makes it more expensive. If someone tells me that it's "worth" 2x because it was handmade, I got some bad news about economics and efficiency for them.. Anyway, an 1176 is a known quantity in that there isn't much deviation from what goes into them. The BOM is pretty standardized, and volume pricing isn't going to save you 400$, it's going to save you maybe 50$. If their production unit COGS is more than 150$, I'd be very surprised. What it’s “worth” is somewhat subjective, no? Name and image alone are “worth” something to most/some people. How much that “something” is worth, again, varies from person to person. My point is that the cost of building and selling something is much more than the parts and labor. And when it comes to Klark Technic vs BLA you’re seeing too very different companies, with different overhead, different means of production, different volume discounts on parts, different marketing budgets, different distribution etc. It’s seems like a fair price, to me, when you take that all into account. Also, didn’t know that this was hand built. I agree with you that hand built doesn’t automatically mean better, and very often just means more expensive.
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Post by svart on Apr 2, 2019 13:01:42 GMT -6
So that makes them "worth" 2x the cost of someone else like Klark Teknik because they aren't smart about their production? That just means they are 2x less cost effective to me. The kits already have a certain degree of business expense and profit included for the people who bought the parts and sold them to you. It takes me about an hour and a half to build an 1176 clone from a kit. An hour "costs" me about 55$. It takes a machine about 30 seconds to stuff a PCB. Doing it by hand doesn't make it more reliable or more desirable. It just makes it more expensive. If someone tells me that it's "worth" 2x because it was handmade, I got some bad news about economics and efficiency for them.. Anyway, an 1176 is a known quantity in that there isn't much deviation from what goes into them. The BOM is pretty standardized, and volume pricing isn't going to save you 400$, it's going to save you maybe 50$. If their production unit COGS is more than 150$, I'd be very surprised. What it’s “worth” is somewhat subjective, no? Name and image alone are “worth” something to most/some people. How much that “something” is worth, again, varies from person to person. My point is that the cost of building and selling something is much more than the parts and labor. And when it comes to Klark Technic vs BLA you’re seeing too very different companies, with different overhead, different means of production, different volume discounts on parts, different marketing budgets, different distribution etc. It’s seems like a fair price, to me, when you take that all into account. Also, didn’t know that this was hand built. I agree with you that hand built doesn’t automatically mean better, and very often just means more expensive. I don't know that it's handmade, it was just a guess based on expected smaller volumes since contract manufacturers typically won't do automated builds for small quantities. I'm just saying that yet *another* clone that comes in at 2x the cost of other clones seems like a losing proposition for BLA, and a questionable marketing position. But then again there's people who think spending 2x on a product that's maybe a few percent different in performance is somehow justified.. but it's ultimately their money to burn I guess.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Apr 2, 2019 14:47:01 GMT -6
Yeah but when you figure in the cost of running a business (marketing, insurance, payroll taxes, rent, utilities, distribution etc) I'd bet that none of these clones are making a killing on a cost-per-unit basis, this one included. Volume is where they make their money. So that makes them "worth" 2x the cost of someone else like Klark Teknik because they aren't smart about their production? That just means they are 2x less cost effective to me. The kits already have a certain degree of business expense and profit included for the people who bought the parts and sold them to you. It takes me about an hour and a half to build an 1176 clone from a kit. An hour "costs" me about 55$. It takes a machine about 30 seconds to stuff a PCB. Doing it by hand doesn't make it more reliable or more desirable. It just makes it more expensive. If someone tells me that it's "worth" 2x because it was handmade, I got some bad news about economics and efficiency for them.. Anyway, an 1176 is a known quantity in that there isn't much deviation from what goes into them. The BOM is pretty standardized, and volume pricing isn't going to save you 400$, it's going to save you maybe 50$. If their production unit COGS is more than 150$, I'd be very surprised. First let’s go back to your kit example let’s say BLA can sell it at the $595 Hairball wants for a blue stripe kit, they have a distributor he needs to make $ to keep the lights on as does the dealer, based on your kit example the dealer and the distributor would both be marking up the unit by less than 17% to hit the MAP of $799. Go ask your boss what the mark up above manufacturered cost is in your industry. Now Behringer is not a fair comparison, They don’t have a factory they have a city!! Music Group can by parts in quantities look less no one else in this industry, they can demand terms like no one else in Pro Audio MI! At this point maybe 10 other manufacturers who are building gear in China have their own factories, the rest are contracting out, because nobody ( wellmaybe Yamaha) could make the investment. Do remember 5 years ago we would consider $800 1/2 the price of an 1176 clone. Audioscape is a side gig, Stam means the whole deposit and wait thing. In theory BLA/ RAD means your dealing with a manufacturer and distributor with a track record and a supply chain that should mean there will be some on the shelf somewhere.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 2, 2019 15:08:43 GMT -6
But they're just not the same thing. BLA is not saying this is a clone, or the best reproduction of a vintage 1176 yet, or any of the things all the clone makers are saying. They're saying this frankenstein 1176 CLA has is something unique, and they painstakingly reverse engineered it.
I've actually heard of this compressor over the years, so I'd sure like to see for myself what it sounds like before lumping it in with the already crowded clone field which can be a race to the bottom sometimes.
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Post by svart on Apr 2, 2019 15:10:52 GMT -6
So that makes them "worth" 2x the cost of someone else like Klark Teknik because they aren't smart about their production? That just means they are 2x less cost effective to me. The kits already have a certain degree of business expense and profit included for the people who bought the parts and sold them to you. It takes me about an hour and a half to build an 1176 clone from a kit. An hour "costs" me about 55$. It takes a machine about 30 seconds to stuff a PCB. Doing it by hand doesn't make it more reliable or more desirable. It just makes it more expensive. If someone tells me that it's "worth" 2x because it was handmade, I got some bad news about economics and efficiency for them.. Anyway, an 1176 is a known quantity in that there isn't much deviation from what goes into them. The BOM is pretty standardized, and volume pricing isn't going to save you 400$, it's going to save you maybe 50$. If their production unit COGS is more than 150$, I'd be very surprised. First let’s go back to your kit example let’s say BLA can sell it at the $595 Hairball wants for a blue stripe kit, they have a distributor he needs to make $ to keep the lights on as does the dealer, based on your kit example the dealer and the distributor would both be marking up the unit by less than 17% to hit the MAP of $799. Go ask your boss what the mark up above manufacturered cost is in your industry. Now Behringer is not a fair comparison, They don’t have a factory they have a city!! Music Group can by parts in quantities look less no one else in this industry, they can demand terms like no one else in Pro Audio MI! At this point maybe 10 other manufacturers who are building gear in China have their own factories, the rest are contracting out, because nobody ( wellmaybe Yamaha) could make the investment. Do remember 5 years ago we would consider $800 1/2 the price of an 1176 clone. Audioscape is a side gig, Stam means the whole deposit and wait thing. In theory BLA/ RAD means your dealing with a manufacturer and distributor with a track record and a supply chain that should mean there will be some on the shelf somewhere. I don't have to ask the boss, I'm integral with the BOM costs and COGS decisions. It's about a 4x markup from COGS to MSRP and then some leeway to allow sales. Besides, in my example, the "distributor" costs would be the same as Hairball's markup. You think it really costs them 595$ for all the parts? It's around 150$ for those parts wholesale. And why isn't it a fair comparison to compare similar devices at wildly different pricepoints? I think you're still misunderstanding my viewpoint.. Which is that BLA is not reinventing the wheel here, their wheel costs 2x what the next guy's wheel costs and does the exact same things. It's a warning to BLA that they've probably overshot their realistic market position by a few hundred dollars..
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Post by svart on Apr 2, 2019 15:15:58 GMT -6
But they're just not the same thing. BLA is not saying this is a clone, or the best reproduction of a vintage 1176 yet, or any of the things all the clone makers are saying. They're saying this frankenstein 1176 CLA has is something unique, and they painstakingly reverse engineered it. I've actually heard of this compressor over the years, so I'd sure like to see for myself what it sounds like before lumping it in with the already crowded clone field which can be a race to the bottom sometimes. So you'll buy one because it may or may not have something (subjectively) "special"? In fact, they are hinting heavily that it's better by pricing it so high, as well as putting CLA's name and reputation as one of their selling points.. I mean, folks have said in reviews that the Klark-Teknik clones are the closest sounding to "vintage" 1176's, would you run out to buy one of those too if it were 2x the cost?
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Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 2, 2019 15:51:06 GMT -6
Man, you're really either projecting onto what I'm saying, or being condescending svart. I've been around for a while, I have friends in the business, I could probably get a chance to try one if I really want to. I thought you might have gleaned that from my almost 6,000 posts by now. I also happen to trust BLA.
This is partly why I occasionally post a video comparing gear, I have some opportunities some others don't, so I like to share my experience. I've been helped by many people here regarding so many things, it's just one way I can contribute too.
So far, for me, the only two compressors I really like the sound of are the CL1B and the Retro 176, but they're too expensive for me. That makes me curious about something in the 1176 zone but with a twist. I don't love the regular 1176, I prefer the 176.
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Post by iamasound on Apr 2, 2019 16:12:42 GMT -6
Imagine the price if CLA wasn’t involved. $649?
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Post by Quint on Apr 2, 2019 16:32:12 GMT -6
It's another 1176 clone. Yay?!?... It's another product endorsed by CLA. Yay?!?...
I will say, I hate the name "Bluey".
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Post by sirthought on Apr 2, 2019 16:35:53 GMT -6
Considering that vintage units cost a pretty penny when they were new and the sound varied wildly from unit to unit, the idea that these boxes will offer the sound of a golden unit is fascinating. BLA already sells a compressor that they felt was their best foot forward on the 1176 angle, so this effort is solely to make a bigger marketing push with the CLA brand. Nice gig if you can get it.
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Post by svart on Apr 2, 2019 16:41:20 GMT -6
Considering that vintage units cost a pretty penny when they were new and the sound varied wildly from unit to unit, the idea that these boxes will offer the sound of a golden unit is fascinating. BLA already sells a compressor that they felt was their best foot forward on the 1176 angle, so this effort is solely to make a bigger marketing push with the CLA brand. Nice gig if you can get it. Kinda where I was headed with my thoughts too. I just don't understand why folks are defending BLA on this..
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Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 2, 2019 18:25:45 GMT -6
I'm defending them because I've had very good experiences with them, and if they're saying the unit they reverse engineered is special, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, and I'd like to hear it first
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 2, 2019 19:44:49 GMT -6
Yeah but when you figure in the cost of running a business (marketing, insurance, payroll taxes, rent, utilities, distribution etc) I'd bet that none of these clones are making a killing on a cost-per-unit basis, this one included. Volume is where they make their money. So that makes them "worth" 2x the cost of someone else like Klark Teknik because they aren't smart about their production? That just means they are 2x less cost effective to me. The kits already have a certain degree of business expense and profit included for the people who bought the parts and sold them to you. It takes me about an hour and a half to build an 1176 clone from a kit. An hour "costs" me about 55$. It takes a machine about 30 seconds to stuff a PCB. Doing it by hand doesn't make it more reliable or more desirable. It just makes it more expensive. If someone tells me that it's "worth" 2x because it was handmade, I got some bad news about economics and efficiency for them.. Anyway, an 1176 is a known quantity in that there isn't much deviation from what goes into them. The BOM is pretty standardized, and volume pricing isn't going to save you 400$, it's going to save you maybe 50$. If their production unit COGS is more than 150$, I'd be very surprised. "Smart about their production"? You mean doing a quality build instead of difficult to impossible to service junk that doesn't really sound all that much like the original? They're worth 2x the cost of Behringer- Teknik because they're a better quality instrument that is higher quality and won't fall apart in a couple years.
I'd rather have a Prius than a Yugo.
It took me a really long time to learn the lesson that investing in quality will serve you much better than going for bargain basement stuff that barely fills the job and you're going to have to replace in a year or two when you outgrow it - or it breaks down.
Sure. But the machine stuffed PCB is not made to be field serviceable - or serviceable at all, since the factory simply bins the dead board and gives you a new one. And the component quality of most of those machine stuffed builds leaves much to be desired most of the time. at least at the "budget" level.
And yes, doing it by hand usually does make it more reliable if your line workers are competent, gives jobs to people who need them, and is ALWAYS, without exception, much more field serviceable.
To me, being able to open up a malfunctioning unit on my bench and have it working in an hour or two (or even a couple days if I have to order parts I don't have on hand) beats the hell out of returning the unit to the factory and waiting two weeks.... or a month.... or six months....
Machine stuffing is fine for throwaway mass market widgets. Pro audio gear is not supposed to be throwaway junk. I expect most (preferably all) of the gear I buy to be field serviceable and to not only outlive the warranty, but to also outlive ME. Your gear should be an investment, not a liability.
Just the fact that it's a single sided PCB that follows the original layout is worth AT LEAST a hundred bucks to me,. maybe even two.
I DESPISE cheap, machine stuffed, double sided PCBs loaded with SMT crap. And layout matters - a lot. You should know this.
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 2, 2019 19:51:03 GMT -6
Considering that vintage units cost a pretty penny when they were new and the sound varied wildly from unit to unit, the idea that these boxes will offer the sound of a golden unit is fascinating. BLA already sells a compressor that they felt was their best foot forward on the 1176 angle, so this effort is solely to make a bigger marketing push with the CLA brand. Nice gig if you can get it. Kinda where I was headed with my thoughts too. I just don't understand why folks are defending BLA on this.. Because they're not Behringer. They actually care about quality. Behringer doesn't.
Think of it like this - you want to propose to your girlfriend. You can either spend some serious money for an engagement ring at a respected jeweler or you can buy a ring that looks about the same from the guy on the corner hawking jewelry from inside his overcoat. Which do you do. What will you do when your girlfriend's finger turns green from the cheap knockoff ring?
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Post by geoff738 on Apr 2, 2019 20:48:40 GMT -6
Ok. I’ve been hearing CLA’s name for eons. I don’t think I’ve ever bought/been given anything he’s worked on. Gonna go look up his discography. I’m genuinely curious.
Cheers, Geoff
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Post by geoff738 on Apr 2, 2019 20:58:53 GMT -6
Ok, from what’s listed on his website I do have some Green Day and possibly Rob Zombie. I do have stuff by other artists he’s worked with, just not the stuff listed. I was actually surprised at the range of artists. I wrongly assumed he was aggressive stuff but there was Dwight Yoakum and Michael Bublé.
Probably l’y not gonna pick up the compressor though.
Cheers, Geoff
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