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Post by reddirt on Apr 2, 2019 22:05:59 GMT -6
Go to the Puremix site and listen to a comparative mix of the same track done by CLA, Mick Guszauski, Andrew Schleps , Fab Dupont and prepare to have your eyes opened as to how effective and efficient CLA is ; you may not like it aesthetically and that's fair , it's your valid opinion but CLA has some absolutely serious chops and I'd be loath to pass negatives on his equipment and opinions,
As to the compressor's price if we want to hold Chinese mass production up as paragons and criticise BLA then we'd better be prepared to accept Chinese wages...........
Cheers, Ross
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Post by ragan on Apr 2, 2019 22:11:46 GMT -6
Wait, do we think this is not built in China? Wouldn't they be bragging that up in the description somewhere?
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Post by svart on Apr 2, 2019 22:25:57 GMT -6
So that makes them "worth" 2x the cost of someone else like Klark Teknik because they aren't smart about their production? That just means they are 2x less cost effective to me. The kits already have a certain degree of business expense and profit included for the people who bought the parts and sold them to you. It takes me about an hour and a half to build an 1176 clone from a kit. An hour "costs" me about 55$. It takes a machine about 30 seconds to stuff a PCB. Doing it by hand doesn't make it more reliable or more desirable. It just makes it more expensive. If someone tells me that it's "worth" 2x because it was handmade, I got some bad news about economics and efficiency for them.. Anyway, an 1176 is a known quantity in that there isn't much deviation from what goes into them. The BOM is pretty standardized, and volume pricing isn't going to save you 400$, it's going to save you maybe 50$. If their production unit COGS is more than 150$, I'd be very surprised. "Smart about their production"? You mean doing a quality build instead of difficult to impossible to service junk that doesn't really sound all that much like the original? They're worth 2x the cost of Behringer- Teknik because they're a better quality instrument that is higher quality and won't fall apart in a couple years.
I'd rather have a Prius than a Yugo.
It took me a really long time to learn the lesson that investing in quality will serve you much better than going for bargain basement stuff that barely fills the job and you're going to have to replace in a year or two when you outgrow it - or it breaks down.
Sure. But the machine stuffed PCB is not made to be field serviceable - or serviceable at all, since the factory simply bins the dead board and gives you a new one. And the component quality of most of those machine stuffed builds leaves much to be desired most of the time. at least at the "budget" level.
And yes, doing it by hand usually does make it more reliable if your line workers are competent, gives jobs to people who need them, and is ALWAYS, without exception, much more field serviceable.
To me, being able to open up a malfunctioning unit on my bench and have it working in an hour or two (or even a couple days if I have to order parts I don't have on hand) beats the hell out of returning the unit to the factory and waiting two weeks.... or a month.... or six months....
Machine stuffing is fine for throwaway mass market widgets. Pro audio gear is not supposed to be throwaway junk. I expect most (preferably all) of the gear I buy to be field serviceable and to not only outlive the warranty, but to also outlive ME. Your gear should be an investment, not a liability.
Just the fact that it's a single sided PCB that follows the original layout is worth AT LEAST a hundred bucks to me,. maybe even two.
I DESPISE cheap, machine stuffed, double sided PCBs loaded with SMT crap. And layout matters - a lot. You should know this.
You literally have no idea what you're saying here. I work with Chinese/overseas assembly everyday. They can machine insert through-hole parts just the same as SMD.. or didn't you know that? SMD parts are the same internal guts as leaded parts, just without the leads, which actually just add costs and inductance. A 2n222 transistor is the same in leaded or SMD and performs the same. But here's the real kicker.. SMD has statistically been far more reliable in PCA yields than through-hole, and IR soldering has been far more reliable than hand soldering. There's a reason they install a 2 million dollar SMD line to do these things, and it's not saving money on head count because you still need people to run the machines, it's the increase in reliability and the resulting decrease in board failures which save tons of money in warranty and repairs. I really don't know where you get your ideas, but they're seemingly rooted in sentiment, because they aren't rooted in modern reality. And yes I know it. You know that I live and work in this stuff everyday.
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Post by svart on Apr 2, 2019 22:32:54 GMT -6
Kinda where I was headed with my thoughts too. I just don't understand why folks are defending BLA on this.. Because they're not Behringer. They actually care about quality. Behringer doesn't.
Think of it like this - you want to propose to your girlfriend. You can either spend some serious money for an engagement ring at a respected jeweler or you can buy a ring that looks about the same from the guy on the corner hawking jewelry from inside his overcoat. Which do you do. What will you do when your girlfriend's finger turns green from the cheap knockoff ring?
I would never marry a woman who required a huge/expensive ring to "know" that I loved her. If she required a big/expensive ring as a material symbol of my love, then she truly doesn't understand love.
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Post by svart on Apr 2, 2019 22:41:54 GMT -6
Wait, do we think this is not built in China? Wouldn't they be bragging that up in the description somewhere? I'll bet 20$ that the production units are made overseas.
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Post by ragan on Apr 2, 2019 22:46:30 GMT -6
Wait, do we think this is not built in China? Wouldn't they be bragging that up in the description somewhere? I'll bet 20$ that the production units are made overseas. That's my gut too.
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Post by BradM on Apr 2, 2019 22:51:46 GMT -6
You literally have no idea what you're saying here. I work with Chinese/overseas assembly everyday. They can machine insert through-hole parts just the same as SMD.. or didn't you know that? SMD parts are the same internal guts as leaded parts, just without the leads, which actually just add costs and inductance. A 2n222 transistor is the same in leaded or SMD and performs the same. But here's the real kicker.. SMD has statistically been far more reliable in PCA yields than through-hole, and IR soldering has been far more reliable than hand soldering. There's a reason they install a 2 million dollar SMD line to do these things, and it's not saving money on head count because you still need people to run the machines, it's the increase in reliability and the resulting decrease in board failures which save tons of money in warranty and repairs. I really don't know where you get your ideas, but they're seemingly rooted in sentiment, because they aren't rooted in modern reality. And yes I know it. You know that I live and work in this stuff everyday. Thanks for saying this. I have to second this 110%. This is exactly why I use SMT in my builds...because it's reliable and high performance and where all the advancements in parts are being made these days. When I design a product I want to use the best, most reliable parts available. It's frustrating to see folks perpetuating this myth that through hole only, hand assembled, single-sided boards are always superior. They are not. And they are often not easier to repair or build by hand. For those that are unwilling, unable, or afraid to invest in the right tools and learn new techniques...maybe. But for those of us trying to mass produce high end products that aren't replicated DIY projects, no thanks. There's a good reason even Rupert Neve is 90%+ SMD in their designs. I can remove and replace an SMT resistor from the top side of the board by simply removing the top cover of my product and flicking off the part with a soldering iron. This takes all of 3 minutes. Give me a Juki over Joe Assembler any day. The droids will do it better than the underpaid laborer all day long. Brad
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Post by svart on Apr 2, 2019 23:00:02 GMT -6
You literally have no idea what you're saying here. I work with Chinese/overseas assembly everyday. They can machine insert through-hole parts just the same as SMD.. or didn't you know that? SMD parts are the same internal guts as leaded parts, just without the leads, which actually just add costs and inductance. A 2n222 transistor is the same in leaded or SMD and performs the same. But here's the real kicker.. SMD has statistically been far more reliable in PCA yields than through-hole, and IR soldering has been far more reliable than hand soldering. There's a reason they install a 2 million dollar SMD line to do these things, and it's not saving money on head count because you still need people to run the machines, it's the increase in reliability and the resulting decrease in board failures which save tons of money in warranty and repairs. I really don't know where you get your ideas, but they're seemingly rooted in sentiment, because they aren't rooted in modern reality. And yes I know it. You know that I live and work in this stuff everyday. Thanks for saying this. I have to second this 110%. This is exactly why I use SMT in my builds...because it's reliable and high performance and where all the advancements in parts are being made these days. When I design a product I want to use the best, most reliable parts available. It's frustrating to see folks perpetuating this myth that through hole only, hand assembled, single-sided boards are always superior. They are not. And they are often not easier to repair or build by hand. For those that are unwilling, unable, or afraid to invest in the right tools and learn new techniques...maybe. But for those of us trying to mass produce high end products that aren't replicated DIY projects, no thanks. There's a good reason even Rupert Neve is 90%+ SMD in their designs. Give me a Juki over Joe Assembler any day. The droids will do it better than the underpaid laborer all day long. Brad If I could thumbs-up this post a hundred times I would. John is a smart guy, no doubt, but he's made up his mind long ago about these things and fails to understand that things have changed. One thing I've noticed, is that there has been a shift from underpaid soldering tech, to decently paid smt tech. As tech moves on, people adapt and become more skilled, even in China.
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Post by sirthought on Apr 3, 2019 0:04:30 GMT -6
Well I'm not saying whether this box is good or bad, just that the marketing spin is interesting. And the price is decent.
For whatever it's worth, I don't see anything in their material that says this is fully handmade like UA and others do. At this price point there are likely shortcuts. It says it's designed and assembled in Chicago and New York. I've followed the company for years and this is the first I'm hearing about anything outside of Chicago, so they might be outsourcing this product's assembly. Not unheard of, especially if you plan to sell a lot. Again, I don't care really. It's just interesting because of those that claimed it was a desirable feature of their brand. Based on the description it likely is a bit more desirable build for future servicing.
This is $100 more than Audio-Scape's blue stripe clone, and the Bluey has the added features of a linking port and the wet/dry mix knob — two things that are NOT seen in the photos of CLA's 'golden' modded unit. Same price as Stam. Although BLA is now selling through major resellers, I believe their customers would likely have Audio-Scape and Stam on their radars. So this might sway some customers.
BLA's SEVENTEEN FET Compressor costs $150 less, has more features than the Bluey and was designed by Tobias Lindell, who has descent street cred himself. (Same price range as Golden Age's FET, if that says anything.) I don't see a warranty listed for any of the BLA stuff that's not a mod job.
These are probably all really useful for the 1176-ish sound.
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Post by raddistribution on Apr 3, 2019 1:10:44 GMT -6
Well I'm not saying whether this box is good or bad, just that the marketing spin is interesting. And the price is decent. For whatever it's worth, I don't see anything in their material that says this is fully handmade like UA and others do. At this price point there are likely shortcuts. It says it's designed and assembled in Chicago and New York. I've followed the company for years and this is the first I'm hearing about anything outside of Chicago, so they might be outsourcing this product's assembly. Not unheard of, especially if you plan to sell a lot. Again, I don't care really. It's just interesting because of those that claimed it was a desirable feature of their brand. Based on the description it likely is a bit more desirable build for future servicing. This is $100 more than Audio-Scape's blue stripe clone, and the Bluey has the added features of a linking port and the wet/dry mix knob — two things that are NOT seen in the photos of CLA's 'golden' modded unit. Same price as Stam. Although BLA is now selling through major resellers, I believe their customers would likely have Audio-Scape and Stam on their radars. So this might sway some customers. BLA's SEVENTEEN FET Compressor costs $150 less, has more features than the Bluey and was designed by Tobias Lindell, who has descent street cred himself. (Same price range as Golden Age's FET, if that says anything.) I don't see a warranty listed for any of the BLA stuff that's not a mod job. These are probably all really useful for the 1176-ish sound. Black lion audio has had two facilities for about 2 years now. Design and mod work is done through the Chicago facility and product production is done in ny. Warranty on all products and mods is 3 years
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Post by ragan on Apr 3, 2019 8:20:01 GMT -6
Well I'm not saying whether this box is good or bad, just that the marketing spin is interesting. And the price is decent. For whatever it's worth, I don't see anything in their material that says this is fully handmade like UA and others do. At this price point there are likely shortcuts. It says it's designed and assembled in Chicago and New York. I've followed the company for years and this is the first I'm hearing about anything outside of Chicago, so they might be outsourcing this product's assembly. Not unheard of, especially if you plan to sell a lot. Again, I don't care really. It's just interesting because of those that claimed it was a desirable feature of their brand. Based on the description it likely is a bit more desirable build for future servicing. This is $100 more than Audio-Scape's blue stripe clone, and the Bluey has the added features of a linking port and the wet/dry mix knob — two things that are NOT seen in the photos of CLA's 'golden' modded unit. Same price as Stam. Although BLA is now selling through major resellers, I believe their customers would likely have Audio-Scape and Stam on their radars. So this might sway some customers. BLA's SEVENTEEN FET Compressor costs $150 less, has more features than the Bluey and was designed by Tobias Lindell, who has descent street cred himself. (Same price range as Golden Age's FET, if that says anything.) I don't see a warranty listed for any of the BLA stuff that's not a mod job. These are probably all really useful for the 1176-ish sound. Black lion audio has had two facilities for about 2 years now. Design and mod work is done through the Chicago facility and product production is done in ny. Warranty on all products and mods is 3 years So none of the Bluey or Seventeen assembly is done overseas?
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Post by jcoutu1 on Apr 3, 2019 8:45:02 GMT -6
Black lion audio has had two facilities for about 2 years now. Design and mod work is done through the Chicago facility and product production is done in ny. Warranty on all products and mods is 3 years So none of the Bluey or Seventeen assembly is done overseas? I would assume "assembly" includes "stuffing boards". All in NY? Nothing happening out of the USA?
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Post by ragan on Apr 3, 2019 9:02:14 GMT -6
So none of the Bluey or Seventeen assembly is done overseas? I would assume "assembly" includes "stuffing boards". All in NY? Nothing happening out of the USA? Yeah maybe so. And of course I don’t think it’s at all dining to have stuff made or partially made overseas. I was just curious. Sometimes companies say “assembly” and it means like putting the knobs on or whatever when most of the build was done overseas. Not at all saying that’s what this distributor is saying, just wanted clarification.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Apr 3, 2019 9:13:47 GMT -6
I would assume "assembly" includes "stuffing boards". All in NY? Nothing happening out of the USA? Yeah maybe so. And of course I don’t think it’s at all dining to have stuff made or partially made overseas. I was just curious. Sometimes companies say “assembly” and it means like putting the knobs on or whatever when most of the build was done overseas. Not at all saying that’s what this distributor is saying, just wanted clarification. I was trying to piggy back on your question and figure out what RAD meant by assembly. I'd like to know where the actual soldering happens. I don't think stuff is worse because it's made in China or whatever, but when someone claims that their product is assembled somewhere, and 90% of the work is being done somewhere else, I turn my head a little.
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Post by svart on Apr 3, 2019 9:17:05 GMT -6
I would assume "assembly" includes "stuffing boards". All in NY? Nothing happening out of the USA? Yeah maybe so. And of course I don’t think it’s at all dining to have stuff made or partially made overseas. I was just curious. Sometimes companies say “assembly” and it means like putting the knobs on or whatever when most of the build was done overseas. Not at all saying that’s what this distributor is saying, just wanted clarification. There is no hard guideline for what "made in the USA" really means. The FTC has ruled that a "substantial amount" of the product must be "manufactured or modified" in the USA to garner "Made in the USA". Elseif (code humor) the product must carry a sticker or notice of what country it was produced in. So someone like BLA could have the boards and chassis made in SE Asia, buy all the remaining parts from SE Asia (where they're made anyway) and then assemble here in the USA and still call it "made in the USA"..
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Post by ragan on Apr 3, 2019 9:38:02 GMT -6
And for my part, I'm not saying that's what they're doing, just wanting to know. I know a lot of folks thought all of the Stam rack stuff was completely handmade by he and his crew in Chile. At least in the early days.
'
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Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 3, 2019 9:50:53 GMT -6
So far there's been quite a bit of crticism regarding this being yet another 1176 clone and comparing price and features to the brands like Klark Teknik, Stam and Audioscape and others. It seems to me what is really needed for us to know if it's a great value or one just more product that's similar to many others is for some of the more experienced members to hear it. Of course that's not easily done, so it may be a while before there's a consensus regarding the Bluey.
I'm always very interested in gear that's vocal centric. It's not been easy getting a vocal recording chain that sounds how I want it to. It would most likely take around $11,000 or more to do what I really would like to. So... if the Bluey has had many Frankenmods over a long time period and is considered special by a producer who's been using it to track major artist's vocals for years, I sure wouldn't mind knowing if it's a good fit for me.
So I think the jury's out until this has a bit more market saturation and knowledgable people get their hands on one.
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Post by svart on Apr 3, 2019 10:49:03 GMT -6
And for my part, I'm not saying that's what they're doing, just wanting to know. I know a lot of folks thought all of the Stam rack stuff was completely handmade by he and his crew in Chile. At least in the early days. ' I think some folks still have that anti-chinese bias, much like folks did in the 80's against Japanese-made gear. At one point both were known for cheap and disposable products, but efforts were and have been made to increase the basic quality. But here's the thing that most people don't understand about Asian manufacturing.. They aren't the one's who are dictating how a product is made, nor are they they ones dictating the part and material quality. The designer/owner of the product does all of that. They dictate to the contract manufacturers every facet of the quality of the device. It's the product owner who "goes cheap" or not on components. The contract manufacturers just build the things with the parts and materials specified. So when folks say "Cheap chinese junk" it's completely bogus to blame the chinese because they are just building these things to the specs they are given.
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Post by ragan on Apr 3, 2019 12:01:20 GMT -6
And for my part, I'm not saying that's what they're doing, just wanting to know. I know a lot of folks thought all of the Stam rack stuff was completely handmade by he and his crew in Chile. At least in the early days. ' I think some folks still have that anti-chinese bias, much like folks did in the 80's against Japanese-made gear. At one point both were known for cheap and disposable products, but efforts were and have been made to increase the basic quality. But here's the thing that most people don't understand about Asian manufacturing.. They aren't the one's who are dictating how a product is made, nor are they they ones dictating the part and material quality. The designer/owner of the product does all of that. They dictate to the contract manufacturers every facet of the quality of the device. It's the product owner who "goes cheap" or not on components. The contract manufacturers just build the things with the parts and materials specified. So when folks say "Cheap chinese junk" it's completely bogus to blame the chinese because they are just building these things to the specs they are given. I've been arguing the same thing for years. Well put.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 3, 2019 12:05:16 GMT -6
But to me, the real question is if a Chinese manufacturer was given specs for a Neumann mic capsule, could they make it as good as Neumann at the same or a lower price point.
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Post by ragan on Apr 3, 2019 12:23:18 GMT -6
But to me, the real question is if a Chinese manufacturer was given specs for a Neumann mic capsule, could they make it as good as Neumann at the same or a lower price point. What would possibly prevent that? The physical materials don't care what continent they're being manipulated on.
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Post by svart on Apr 3, 2019 12:28:42 GMT -6
But to me, the real question is if a Chinese manufacturer was given specs for a Neumann mic capsule, could they make it as good as Neumann at the same or a lower price point. I know they can. They use the same high tech machinery available to the rest of the world. The issue is cost. They absolutely have the technology and intelligence to do it.. but it'll end up costing almost as much on low volume products because you still have pay for the machinery and the skilled labor, plus tariffs, shipping, etc. We have a duality in this country where one side demands American jobs but also demands prices so low that American salaries could never be paid from the profits of those products unless the products cost much, much more, forcing companies to find offshore manufacturing to meet the desires of their consumers. The other side wants global equality but also demands general salaries so high that they could never be paid to American standards unless the products also cost much more than people are willing to pay, again forcing cost cutting and overseas manufacturing. 20 years ago you could get away with the lower quality of Chinese products for a vastly lower price, using the reasoning of "not that bad is good enough".. and it worked for generic consumer products, but at the time there was no infrastructure for extremely accurate/precision work until capitalist companies invested more into their overseas plants. But today, Chinese work quality can be so high that their educated and skilled workers have experienced the highest wage growth ever on this planet, and it's becoming very hard to reconcile using Asian manufacturing with high profit margins for precision work. 20 years ago you could get 10 college degree level workers for the salary of one American Bachelor's degree grad. Today it's roughly 2-3:1 for STEM degree equivalents.
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Post by BradM on Apr 3, 2019 12:40:25 GMT -6
But to me, the real question is if a Chinese manufacturer was given specs for a Neumann mic capsule, could they make it as good as Neumann at the same or a lower price point. If they were given all the manufacturing process details and whatever custom tools / machines / jigs, etc. Neumann uses, then over time I believe yes. Think about what goes into making an iPhone. These are precision builds with incredible tight tolerance parts and very strict requirements for cosmetic finish. Apple builds them in China because of the combination of skillset, manufacturing infrastructure, scale, and cost. www.nytimes.com/2019/01/28/technology/iphones-apple-china-made.htmlI somewhat agree with svart about volume. The cost comes down to volumes. Does paying shipping, tariffs, taxes, outweigh the cost of domestic manufacture for low volume? It's hard to say without detailed costing data. Brad
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Post by ragan on Apr 3, 2019 13:06:19 GMT -6
And also brand prestige/pedigree. If a Neumann capsule sells for $100 less but it's Chinese, is that worth the change to the brand identity? I'd say no way.
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Post by svart on Apr 3, 2019 13:19:30 GMT -6
And also brand prestige/pedigree. If a Neumann capsule sells for $100 less but it's Chinese, is that worth the change to the brand identity? I'd say no way. If it works the same, then why stick to brand/pedigree? Lot's of times it's either the subconscious connection between spending more and believing it'll bring better performance, or a subconscious desire for prestige/symbols of wealth. If it quacks like a duck and all that..
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