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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 2, 2016 16:51:03 GMT -6
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 2, 2016 17:27:48 GMT -6
It's pretty, all that pretty machinery and making all their own parts pretty much explains the price. I do wonder though how many mics they think they will sell for that price as a unknown entity and how many mics they have to sell to pay the bills!
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jun 2, 2016 17:56:15 GMT -6
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 2, 2016 18:04:49 GMT -6
This is what happens when we can't have real porn! ?
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Post by rowmat on Jun 2, 2016 18:15:23 GMT -6
Yeah we all turn into RealGear slutz!
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Jun 2, 2016 18:17:49 GMT -6
$7200 cdn without duties or taxes: I'll just think about
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 2, 2016 19:25:12 GMT -6
Wish he would sell the bodies...
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jun 2, 2016 19:32:34 GMT -6
Wish he would sell the bodies... I was thinking the same thing. Pure sex.
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Post by Ward on Jun 2, 2016 19:48:23 GMT -6
Flawless... they've even nailed the color! I sent them an email... and then it dawned on me. LOL . . . I've been to Dallas Upton's place before!
Good luck Dallas!
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Post by Shannon on Jun 3, 2016 1:28:26 GMT -6
Wish he would sell the bodies... They are nice very nice. I wI'll post a pic of my body tube 2 morrow see what every body thinks about the color ( go easy on me lol ) . btw is a bitch , I mean not fun, not only does every 251 sound different but so is the color. Thuogh I've made and assembled many many Mics, dam it does it take a while to get it done. I been asked to do a cv4 conversion John k. And it will be done very shortly hit me up ''much. Respect to it all involved in that project from the tooling the color the capsule very beautiful 251 "
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Post by thehightenor on Jun 3, 2016 4:36:53 GMT -6
Is there anything left to "design" when it comes to mics especially vocal mics.
After losing a fairly large amounts of money buying mics of modern design I gave up sold the lot and bought an expensive clone of a U47 (Wunder CM7)
I couldn't be happier with my CM7 it gives me everything I want from a vocal mc and sounds great on an acoustic.
I personally couldn't find the sound I wanted in a "modern design" .... and I bought some very expensive modern designs a few years ago.
I guess I'm not the only one who feels that way, and therefore there is a large market for the "old designs" - seems to me a case of if it aint' broken why fix it.
.... and the same is true of the preamps and compressors I own .... all designs from the 1950's, 60's and 70's. (with the exception of a Millennia STT-1)
I guess analog design was perfected decades ago.
I love the look of this 251 - definitely can't afford one though!
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Post by swurveman on Jun 3, 2016 7:37:17 GMT -6
Flawless... they've even nailed the color! I sent them an email... and then it dawned on me. LOL . . . I've been to Dallas Upton's place before! Good luck Dallas! Same guy that owns Vintech?
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Post by swurveman on Jun 3, 2016 7:43:39 GMT -6
It's pretty, all that pretty machinery and making all their own parts pretty much explains the price. I do wonder though how many mics they think they will sell for that price as a unknown entity and how many mics they have to sell to pay the bills! ....I wonder what fidelity gains there are in spending $6,500.00 more for a Telefunken.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 3, 2016 8:03:34 GMT -6
I think Blackspade will be introducing a 251 style mic soon, and I think it will be $2,000 less. The Blackspade guys are crazy dedicated to ultra high quality, so I would bet their version will be one of the best possible.
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Post by EmRR on Jun 3, 2016 8:42:02 GMT -6
I stay out of mic mod/DIY world, but will add I see the same things Tim mentions in DIY and clone versions of vintage hardware, that being very little of it sounds anything at all like the real thing, even though the operational behavior may more or less mimic the original....which usually does not meet modern needs. So, it doesn't do what you'd really want it to do, and it also doesn't sound like the sound you think you are chasing. BUT PEOPLE WANT TO BELIEVE. AND THERE ARE LOTS OF KOOL-AID VENDORS READY TO HELP. You want the real thing, buy the real thing, or admit it's somewhat pointless pretending to almost have the real thing. Instead just figure out what works for you, regardless of opinion.
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Post by thehightenor on Jun 3, 2016 8:48:53 GMT -6
I have to disagree. Your CM7 uses a different tube than the original and some would argue that makes it impossible to ever achieve the sound of a true U47. As a manufacturer I know there's plenty that could be done to improve upon current designs especially when someone goes to this extent. It's just easier to play it safe. This product just comes so late to the game. No one is going without an AKG clone because of lack of product. I'm curious how many here own Vintech's Neve clone and prefer it to other manufacturer's or an original. True I do understand that.
But I'm lucky enough to have recorded with an original U47 many times over the last 35 years, and for my tastes the capsule, transformer and grill have been cloned close enough so that the difference between my CM7 and a U47 is no greater than the difference between two U47's. (I have ABX tested it and I'm very satisfied)
I'm simply saying I understand the demand for pro audio designs of old as many concepts were fashioned to be so musical decades ago. I have to go back to the 50's to find my favourite vocal compressor (STA Level) think how many designs of compressors there have been since then.
The same can be said of many musical instrument designs - nothing has changed in decades and for good reason.
I appreciate new mic and pro audio designs though and I'm always open to new concepts and engineering approaches.
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Post by jdc on Jun 3, 2016 9:01:07 GMT -6
Why bother? Everything sounds like an sm7b anyways...
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Post by Ward on Jun 3, 2016 9:05:39 GMT -6
You never hear this kind of fuss over Fender or Clone reissues of 50s Telecasters and Stratocasters. If the specs are there, we're good to go... plus the quality is better now anyhow!! Same goes for the Gibson Les Paul reissues. There is no finer Les Paul standard in the world than the 1983 reissue of the flame top standards. 1950s Les Pauls come second to the reissues!! Not just my humble opinion. The 1983-8 Telecaster reissues of the 1953 are just beyond compare... like the originals to the last detail except an even better neck and wood that doesn't rot. I might just have a few of these guitars and have been able to play some of them side by side for a while now. And so, I think the same can be said of many microphones also. Telefunken's U47 and ELA M251 reissues are just beyond amazing. If you find a better original, then perhaps it's been stored in a vacuum or some cryogenic chamber for 60 years.
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Post by Ward on Jun 3, 2016 9:11:29 GMT -6
Flawless... they've even nailed the color! I sent them an email... and then it dawned on me. LOL . . . I've been to Dallas Upton's place before! Good luck Dallas! Same guy that owns Vintech? The same.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 3, 2016 9:12:13 GMT -6
There are no internal shots of the 251. The internal pics of the C12 show that it's not a true recreation of the C12 like FLEA's or Telefunkens but their own layout. Pricewise there are so many other C12/251 clones out there that I'm not sure I understand their reasoning. I bet that very quickly they'll begin selling parts (bodies and capsules) because it will be impossible for them to recoup their layout costs by selling microphones. The list of companies currently manufacturing CK12's is MBHO, Josephson, Telefunken, me, Beesneez, Shannon, Heiserman,OPR, Lawson, Korby, SPA, perhaps some others I'm unaware of and now Vintech/Upton. I find it a little sad that with all the effort and costs entailed that it takes to bring a product like this to market that we're not seeing original designs instead. When Vintech started out one of there big selling points was they were less expensive than the other Neve clones, so it surprises me that they would go for the high price part of the crowded C12 market ! They were also an early entry to the Neve clone market and the first to open up a large mail order ( Sweetwater ) and MI (GC). I have to agree major risk entering a mature highend C12 market where we also have a number of well known OEM parts suppliers (Tim, TAB ect) as a major selling point, rolling your own. I also would like to see more people developing some new flavors of LDC. Just think if the one company, the one that not only had the money but should have access to the original drawings and all the other design and production data from the days when they built the Original C12 and 251! Man AKG and later Harman screwed the pooch and Could have dominated the market ! I know they said they didn't have any of the original data but Tim, can you imagine if a company as big as AKG put a couple of guys who hand been in the field of designing and building Capsules on the Quest of resurrecting the old CK12! Not putting you down man, in fact this is what makes me more in awe of guys like you, the late Oliver, Thirsch, Shannon and others. Now imagine walking into VK,Sweetwater, Alto,ect and saying hey I know you have a bunch of C12 and 251 clones but here's are new mics $5000 how many would you like?
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Post by thehightenor on Jun 3, 2016 9:14:11 GMT -6
Spot on I have Japanese JV Strat from 1981 that has been my favourite Strat throughout the years.
Most musicians aren't interested in having the wheel re-invented for them, they just want to learn to roll it down the road better.
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Post by tskguy on Jun 3, 2016 9:37:29 GMT -6
Pretty much agree with most statements made so far..When I see something like this I have a great respect for recreating the body. Its not easy! That is most likely the brunt of that 5500 dollar price tag.. Its the same for Telefunkan. In my opinion the tfunk mics sound ok..but not 9000 dollars ok! I am sure most 251 or c12 clones will be just as good or better sounding than these, but they sure wont look as cool! And with a clone you get to choose the flavor of capsule and tube transformer etc! For the cost I can build a 251 U47 C12 Fet47 and an 87!!
E
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 3, 2016 10:11:54 GMT -6
Just my opinion, but I think $5500 is a little steep...but maybe some of you guys could educate me on the expenses of producing these. And hey - it's a free market - the guy should be able to price them wherever he wants...I'm just saying I think it could have been an absolute freaking homerun for $3200-4200. I just think when you get into the $4000 plus market, you're alienating yourself from a HUGE segment you could sell to. Although, maybe that's not his goal. Maybe these will street at $4600 or something. I could see that selling like the Flea if it gets a decent reputation.
As many have stated - the bodies would FLY off the shelf...I mean FLY.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 3, 2016 10:25:22 GMT -6
Just my opinion, but I think $5500 is a little steep...but maybe some of you guys could educate me on the expenses of producing these. And hey - it's a free market - the guy should be able to price them wherever he wants...I'm just saying I think it could have been an absolute freaking homerun for $3200-4200. I just think when you get into the $4000 plus market, you're alienating yourself from a HUGE segment you could sell to. Although, maybe that's not his goal. Maybe these will street at $4600 or something. I could see that selling like the Flea if it gets a decent reputation. As many have stated - the bodies would FLY off the shelf...I mean FLY. Like I said earlier look at the cost of those lovely CNC machines ! These guys made a big investment in the tools. I am not saying others in the clone buissness haven't , but most start out either doing small scale production on manual machines or they out source. These guys jumped right into the deep end of the pool headfirst ! I'm going to guess this is why Tim thinks they will be selling Bodies, the machines mean they are set up for more production than a late commer to the markets going to sell at $5k no less $3k!
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Post by thehightenor on Jun 3, 2016 10:49:29 GMT -6
Just my opinion, but I think $5500 is a little steep...but maybe some of you guys could educate me on the expenses of producing these. Many years ago I bought a BLUE Bottle with B6 cap in the UK for £3650! ($5300)
When it arrived something had gone wrong with the supply chain and the distributor had sent it straight to my home address accidentally bypassing the dealer.
They had, I'm sure by mistake, left the import papers in the box and it showed the price the distributor had payed BLUE for the Bottle and B6 cap.
I was shocked - I won't say the exact figure - but I was a "yikes" kind of moment.
It did add up though when you think UK government take import duty then the dealer pays again 20% retail VAT.
Then people making the physical parts need to make wages and make a profit and pay tax Blue need to pay wages and make a profit and pay tax The distributor needs to pay wages, make a profit etc etc The dealer needs to .... etc etc etc
Not to forget all the various forms of transport involved from original parts to distribution to dealer then delivery to my home.
I worked out my £3650 BLUE bottle must have about £150 worth of physical material in it LOL!
Probably a bit more than that, but when I worked out how many people were taking a slice of the £3650 I calculated it certainly wasn't a huge amount of material costs, in the case of the UK, more like tax on tax on tax!
Unfortunately USA boutique pro audio is very expensive in the UK .... virtually all my gear is boutique USA pro audio, which is why I don't have much of it!
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