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Post by Ward on Jun 3, 2016 11:15:39 GMT -6
and he has plenty of space to build additional buildings for expanded production too!
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 3, 2016 11:55:30 GMT -6
Talked to Dallas and these will list for upper $4's and most likely street at about $4250. (But speak to your dealer ) Gotta say, at that price, these could fly off the shelves.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jun 3, 2016 12:11:17 GMT -6
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 3, 2016 12:45:47 GMT -6
Talked to Dallas and these will list for upper $4's and most likely street at about $4250. (But speak to your dealer ) Gotta say, at that price, these could fly off the shelves. $4k is still a smaller market, get it down to $3500 and then your talking! Did you convince him to send you a Demo?
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Post by jsteiger on Jun 3, 2016 16:20:38 GMT -6
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 3, 2016 16:22:38 GMT -6
He said it was all point to point...and he's gonna come on and comment...There are gonna be some pics of the inside.
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Post by thehightenor on Jun 3, 2016 16:48:38 GMT -6
Yes I heard FLEA were going to do a 251 clone soon.
This would be great as they're EU based so there would be no hefty import tax .... unless the UK decide to leave the EU on 23rd June - hopefully not!
I'd love a 251 to complement my CM7.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 3, 2016 16:59:06 GMT -6
That also a one time price on a demo unit. Still no internal pics. Is it laid out on a pcb? plexi board? That ad just states a US made transformer not their own. I believe FLEA and Blackspade are both introducing 251's that will retail under this price. From what he said, plexiglass. I believe they are building their own T4 transformer. The new twist to this one is the exact body replica...you have to admit, it looks really, really good.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 3, 2016 18:02:51 GMT -6
Well externally it looks like a 251. Does it have all the internal plastic casing? Does it use all the same connectors inside to attach headbasket to amplifier or amplifier to connector? Is it just a simplified internal point to point on a piece of plexiglas like other cheaper clones? We'll know soon enough when Dallas comes on and posts pics. For me the twists are that they make their own transformer and capsule. How the body looks has much less to do with the sound. It will be interesting to hear which revision of the capsule and transformer they've settled on. Tough crowd
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 4, 2016 8:49:16 GMT -6
BTW - those Blackspade RS mics look beautiful. Are they ever going to come out? You have any more information on them, timcampbell?
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 4, 2016 9:16:49 GMT -6
When we discuss clones and the dearth of competitive new mics, Soyuz comes to mind. It is every bit the equal of the classics, completely hand made, and has its own distinctive sound. Not only does the 0-17 win in many blind shootouts, their 0-11 SDC is killer. I have my friend's K-84's on loan. Put the 84's and the 0-11's in front of me and ask me to choose either one, the Soyuz takes the gold.
So, clones are certainly not the only way to get to the world class level. It costs, $3,500. That's a lot less than $5,500.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 4, 2016 9:25:59 GMT -6
When we discuss clones and the dearth of competitive new mics, Soyuz comes to mind. It is every bit the equal of the classics, completely hand made, and has its own distinctive sound. Not only does the 0-19 win in many blind shootouts, their 0-11 SDC is killer. I have my friend's K-84's on loan. Put the 84's and the 0-11's in front of me and ask me to choose either one, the Soyuz takes the gold. So, clones are certainly not the only way to get to the world class level. It costs, $3,500. That's a lot less than $5,500. Really, Martin? I'm beginning to think they pay you.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 4, 2016 9:54:22 GMT -6
I know, I wish! I've probably sold at least a dozen of them for Soyuz with my posts and videos, but alas, there is no 0-17 in my foreseeable future.
I have a friend who was able to loan it to me for a week. I can't afford one, and it never stops bugging me, because it was such a good fit for my vocals. I remember my 1980 U-87 being the same way, plug and play.
I was listening yesterday to a couple of Coldplay tracks off their new album because they used the 0-17 and I was curious. I found it a little too smooth in their case, with a pinch less intelligibility than their other albums, so I guess it really is a matter of taste.
I guess my main point was perhaps we don't need to get crazy about clones when options like the Soyuz or the Blackspade are available new with warranty's. One thing cool about Manhattan, we have one store, B&H that has a mic room with around 30 high end mics. You can run them through any of a half dozen preamps. So in 15 minutes, you can run through a Telefunken AK-47, AR-51, the Soyuz 0-17, 0-19, Miktek CV-4, Neumann U-87, 103, AKG's and many others.
It sure helped narrow my choices quickly.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 4, 2016 10:12:57 GMT -6
I'm not obsessed with clones, I'm obsessed with 251s. If I can have a damn good approximation for half the price of a modern one or 1/4th of a vintage one...I'm in.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 4, 2016 10:42:30 GMT -6
I've never had the chance to use a 251, but from what I've heard, it seems like the best mic ever.
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Post by swurveman on Jun 4, 2016 12:20:37 GMT -6
I may be wrong, but aren't these 251's?
251 Heaven?
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 4, 2016 12:21:03 GMT -6
So Tim - you seem very interested in this...and somewhat snarky. Why?
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Post by sozocaps on Jun 4, 2016 12:31:35 GMT -6
Michael's overdubs were c12's
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Post by thehightenor on Jun 4, 2016 12:37:29 GMT -6
I may be wrong, but aren't these 251's? 251 Heaven? Just watching that I thought wow Daryl Hall really does have close on the perfect blue eyed soul voice even in that company his lines stood out as having an amazing tone, phrasing and soul.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 4, 2016 12:39:52 GMT -6
They're really good on toms
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 4, 2016 13:16:45 GMT -6
OK - cool... Here's my deal. If someone wants an exact, historically correct version, it's available - for $9000 from Telefunken USA. I really don't want to get into inferring the "value" of something - hey - it's worth what people will pay for it. If this offering is a good circuit with good workmanship and - as we can see - a beautifully executed body, then I think it's a good option for many. I believe the capsule is 90% of the sound anyway...and that proof will be in the pudding. If someone so chose, they could buy this, put one of your capsules in it and still come out WAAAAY ahead of the normal price for a Tele USA 251.
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Post by swurveman on Jun 4, 2016 13:19:48 GMT -6
I may be wrong, but aren't these 251's? 251 Heaven? Just watching that I thought wow Daryl Hall really does has close on the perfect blue eyed soul voice even in that company his lines stood out as having an amazing tone, phrasing and soul.
I don't know if this was live or overdubbed, but if it was live what struck me was how far people were from the mics.
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Post by dallasupton on Jun 4, 2016 13:23:16 GMT -6
Hi, I just wanted to go ahead a post a few pics of the inside of our version of the Ela M 251. I took these pics of the prototype I had here with me last night. There have been a few small changes on subsequent prototypes we've been building recently. For one thing, the large red capacitor in these shots is not actually connected and we substituted a wet tantalum cap on the opposite side of the turret board. (Thanks to Dan D. for turning me on to these capacitors!). We left the large red cap in the unit to enable us to do listening comparisons of the two capacitors. In more recent prototypes the wet tantalum is located in another spot. Also, we will be having the brass frame nickel plated for the production models. However, some customers who wish to purchase some of these early versions at discounted prices will receive the microphone with a non-nickel plated brass frame. I also didn't take the capsule basket assembly off last night because I was in somewhat of a hurry and the capsule mount may be changing from the mount that's in this prototype and I wanted to avoid confusion. Our website has several detailed photos of our capsule if anyone is interested. We did not choose to use the same exact construction techniques as the original 251 which incorporated modular plastic enclosed amplifiers which often end up having cracking/deterioration/connection issues over the years. We do have a lot of respect for Telefunken Elektro. having done all the work they did to reproduce their model pretty much exactly as the original. We chose instead to construct our version of the 251 utilizing more of a hybrid approach that incorporates construction techniques found in both the AKG C12 and the Ela M 251. One of the critical parts of these microphones, in my opinion, is the pattern switch that is incorporated into the head basket/capsule mount assembly. This turned out to be much more involved than I ever anticipated. The original proprietary switch assemblies often end up having mechanical issues and can be very difficult/near impossible to repair. We decided to custom fabricate an assembly out of plastic (as the original did) that houses a three pole, three position ELMA switch with a custom fabricated switch arm assembly and polar pattern plate that needs to fit very precisely into the mic assembly. This assembly was quite a task but we are very happy with the way it functions and if ever there is a problem with the switch itself, it's not too big of a deal to replace it. As for the transformer, we make the T14 style transformer ourselves. We wind all of our transformers here in our shop. As many of you know, I am the owner of Vintech Audio. We started winding our own Neve/St. Ives/Marinair style transformers and inductors back in late 2004. I never really publicized the fact that we were making our own transformers because many people doubt that anyone but the original manufacturer of the transformers can do it correctly. By the way, our Neve style input transformers are housed in a different kind of case but use the same bobbins and style of laminations that Carnhill uses but ours are encased in an epoxy type of resin like the very early Marinair transformers were. The housing can is different. Anyway, over the years we've wound well in excess of 10,000 transformers and inductors and have used them in listening tests with our equipment vs vintage Neves in major studios in New York and Nashville. But of course, that's a different subect and has been well covered over the years! With specific regard to the CK12 capsule, our work at recreating this capsule has taken almost four years of testing and development. We are very happy with the results we are getting with our capsules after lots of time and energy spent working on them. There are many complex variables that contribute to this capsule's performance characteristics. I believe that this capsule accounts for 95% or more of the unique sound associated with the original AKG C12, Ela M 251, as well as all the other microphone designs that AKG chose to utilize this great and unique capsule in. With regard to Tim Campbell's question about which revision of the CK12 we like best. I personally like the sound of the later deeper chambered revision of the backplates. We can however offer customers variations on this chamber depth as well as several other variables in the capsule's construction/tuning in an effort to find something that they like best. Thanks, Dallas Upton Upton Microphones
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 4, 2016 13:23:31 GMT -6
And while I respect Dallas and the 20 year career he's built in the Pro Audio industry, I don't have any vested interest in this product. I've been wondering why someone didn't build a body that DIY'ers could outfit - much like the various U47 incarnations. I bet he could sell these bodies for $1500 apiece...but I think this is his personal passion - and he's just doing it the way he feels offers his best product.
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Post by jeromemason on Jun 4, 2016 13:24:30 GMT -6
That's about how far I back people up. A good vocal room and about a foot or so back = a big sound.
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