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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 4, 2018 8:40:01 GMT -6
You could easily make up the gain with a compressor. Jeffs design as I understand it is very much the same as what happens in an API console so the VP28 pairs perfectly with the SumBus to complete the picture sonically speaking. Also, I have noticed, as has John Kennedy, that the box has a sweet spot for how hard you can hit it. If you hit it too hard you start to lose some low end. For me, coming out of the box at +3 to +9 over 0vu is the sweet spot. Well, you pointed that out to me and you were right! I think you might be able to say this across the board - which kindve makes sense I guess if transformers are being pushed and shaving off transients...but alas, I don’t really know what I’m talking about. Lol. I’ve actually been digging using the vp28s like you mentioned too - wide open output then bringing the gain up.
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Post by jsteiger on Jul 4, 2018 9:03:50 GMT -6
Thanks man! I’m using an Avid HD Omni and an Avid HD I/O for D/A, then through the SumBus to a pair of VP28s with gar918 op amps and then to the Burl B2 A/D. I’ll try to put together a few more examples here soon! Ok cheers. So as I understand it, the sumbus loses 6db of level and you are using VP28s to make that back up. Have you tried it without the makeup? Is that level loss a problem and does it sound much different? I wonder if you just hit it harder, do you even need to make up the loss? Gosh it would be great if it was just a unity device, all in one box.. The concept of the SumBus is to create the complete 2-mix path of my vintage console. That is 2 stage summing. I have gain staged it just like my board. In order to keep the 2 sets of buses, there was no room for the post insert booster amps inside the SumBus frame. Sure you can hit the inputs a little harder but the idea is to replicate the complete 2-mix path of a vintage API so you need another active stage. To take it one step further, I don't think its the actual summing resistors that give us the glorious sound, its all of the analog circuitry that is before and after those bus R's that make the difference.
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mdr
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Post by mdr on Jul 4, 2018 9:33:40 GMT -6
Ok cheers. So as I understand it, the sumbus loses 6db of level and you are using VP28s to make that back up. Have you tried it without the makeup? Is that level loss a problem and does it sound much different? I wonder if you just hit it harder, do you even need to make up the loss? Gosh it would be great if it was just a unity device, all in one box.. The concept of the SumBus is to create the complete 2-mix path of my vintage console. That is 2 stage summing. I have gain staged it just like my board. In order to keep the 2 sets of buses, there was no room for the post insert booster amps inside the SumBus frame. Sure you can hit the inputs a little harder but the idea is to replicate the complete 2-mix path of a vintage API so you need another active stage. To take it one step further, I don't think its the actual summing resistors that give us the glorious sound, its all of the analog circuitry that is before and after those bus R's that make the difference. Ok I getcha, so it really comes down to space inside the box. I do recall that you are working on a master box with the appropriate final gain stages etc, but in the mean time, which of the CAPI pres would give me this final stage most accurately? I agree the transformers and gain stages are where much of the magic comes from, but there is such thing as too much of a good thing, and Id like to find the butter zone. Happy fourth of July, by the way!
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Post by EmRR on Jul 4, 2018 10:16:20 GMT -6
I don't think its the actual summing resistors that give us the glorious sound, its all of the analog circuitry that is before and after those bus R's that make the difference. I was in need of some additional simple summing when I changed from a single stereo bus compression path to a dual stereo compression path, and routed those into my RCA BC-2B console (26 dB passive loss), then into a pair of makeup amps to cover the loss. No real change in sound apparent from that part alone. Cool product, you've certainly been hacking away at the concept long enough to finally land something solid. I haven't studied it much but, I see a less expensive 2 bus version, does that at all imply one can/could incorporate the final stage in the 2 bus version? I'm sure that's covered somewhere and I've missed it.
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Post by matt@IAA on Jul 4, 2018 10:39:03 GMT -6
Ok cheers. So as I understand it, the sumbus loses 6db of level and you are using VP28s to make that back up. Have you tried it without the makeup? Is that level loss a problem and does it sound much different? I wonder if you just hit it harder, do you even need to make up the loss? Gosh it would be great if it was just a unity device, all in one box.. The concept of the SumBus is to create the complete 2-mix path of my vintage console. That is 2 stage summing. I have gain staged it just like my board. In order to keep the 2 sets of buses, there was no room for the post insert booster amps inside the SumBus frame. Sure you can hit the inputs a little harder but the idea is to replicate the complete 2-mix path of a vintage API so you need another active stage. To take it one step further, I don't think its the actual summing resistors that give us the glorious sound, its all of the analog circuitry that is before and after those bus R's that make the difference. Just curious Jeff, on your 3288 are the mix inputs through an input transformer? I always assumed on the vintage consoles API used a BTA. On the 1604 528 input module I've seen the line input just comes in through two 10k resistors post-2622.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 4, 2018 11:51:54 GMT -6
The concept of the SumBus is to create the complete 2-mix path of my vintage console. That is 2 stage summing. I have gain staged it just like my board. In order to keep the 2 sets of buses, there was no room for the post insert booster amps inside the SumBus frame. Sure you can hit the inputs a little harder but the idea is to replicate the complete 2-mix path of a vintage API so you need another active stage. To take it one step further, I don't think its the actual summing resistors that give us the glorious sound, its all of the analog circuitry that is before and after those bus R's that make the difference. Ok I getcha, so it really comes down to space inside the box. I do recall that you are working on a master box with the appropriate final gain stages etc, but in the mean time, which of the CAPI pres would give me this final stage most accurately? I agree the transformers and gain stages are where much of the magic comes from, but there is such thing as too much of a good thing, and Id like to find the butter zone. Happy fourth of July, by the way! I'm really, really loving the VP28 Platinums for makeup. Output cranked and using input to gain stage. I bet the VP26 Platinums would sound fantastic for this too.
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Post by bartacusad on Jul 4, 2018 20:59:21 GMT -6
I had done a good rough mix ITB so the general vibe was there but it was actually mixed through the SB. I copied all my plugin settings back to the ITB for this little demo. All the reverbs sound deeper and wider on the SB track. Sounds good. Did the SB mix hit any outboard compressor(s) or any other signal pricessing gear before going back itb to print? Yes I totally agree about the verbs. That’s one of the many aspects of mixing through the SumBus that I can’t live without now. I come out of the SB to a pair of VP28s and then to a Wes Audio Dione compressor and then through the Burl B2 AD. I love that I’m able to recall all my settings with the Dione instantly and it sounds killer too!
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Post by bram on Jul 4, 2018 23:02:55 GMT -6
Today's Progress (5 hours): Attachment DeletedAttachment DeletedOnto the meat and potatoes: 8 Channel PCBs! More pics: Sumbus Build---------------- The recent discussion has been motivating. So the Sumbus is essentially the output guts of an API 3288, is that right? What are some albums that have been mixed on those consoles? Vintage King has one for sale that was owned by Q-Tip of A Tribe Called Quest. The description states " Q-Tip did production work using the console for Kendrick Lamar, Lady Gaga, Mariah Carey and Pusha T. Prior to Q-Tip owning the desk, the API 3288 was used on many other classic records, including several Ramones and Blondie records." Any other examples that highlight it's character?
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mdr
New Member
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Post by mdr on Jul 4, 2018 23:43:45 GMT -6
Ok I getcha, so it really comes down to space inside the box. I do recall that you are working on a master box with the appropriate final gain stages etc, but in the mean time, which of the CAPI pres would give me this final stage most accurately? I agree the transformers and gain stages are where much of the magic comes from, but there is such thing as too much of a good thing, and Id like to find the butter zone. Happy fourth of July, by the way! I'm really, really loving the VP28 Platinums for makeup. Output cranked and using input to gain stage. I bet the VP26 Platinums would sound fantastic for this too. What is the difference between Platinum and normal?
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Post by bram on Jul 5, 2018 0:05:36 GMT -6
]What is the difference between Platinum and normal? Cut and paste from Facebook:
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 7, 2018 10:06:38 GMT -6
Attached is a section of a song I mixed a couple days ago that hopefully will give a little insight into what the SumBus does to drums, bass, elec, and just the general sonic spectrum. This was done through the 16x2. Drums are summed to two channels, elec on two channels, bass on a mono channel, and verb on two channels. I wish I could let you hear what it does for vocals but this is an unreleased project and I have no rights to it other than to share a little taste of it. I think the SumBus improves the whole mix but listen to the differences to the kick and bass especially! I hear more spread and dimension...
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Post by bram on Jul 8, 2018 18:58:00 GMT -6
Alright. Took a few days off and came back to the project feeling a bit under the weather so took a leisurely pace with this last round. Progress (~5 hours):- B Bus Rogue Five Op Amps landed and installed
- 1st Channel board complete!
Finished the 1st of 8 channel boards today. Immediately, well, post happy-dance, I installed the card into slot 1, closed the box up and plugged the whole thing into power for the first time.... no smoke no explosion just some radical dancing LEDs and sound. Beautiful sweet sexy sound. Tested the outputs of both A and B bus LRs, so far so good! 7 more cards to go. I reckon, if working efficiently, the remaining cards will take 2.5-3 hours a piece if I'm focused. I'm by no means an electrical engineer, so I'm providing my time table to give a labor estimate for those who are your average joe DIY hobbyists and might be interested in this build. I'll report back when it's all done! Attachment DeletedAttachment DeletedAttachment DeletedMore pics and notes of the full build here.
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Post by Blackdawg on Jul 8, 2018 20:31:45 GMT -6
Alright. Took a few days off and came back to the project feeling a bit under the weather so took a leisurely pace with this last round. Progress (~5 hours):- B Bus Rogue Five Op Amps landed and installed
- 1st Channel board complete!
Finished the 1st of 8 channel boards today. Immediately, well, post happy-dance, I installed the card into slot 1, closed the box up and plugged the whole thing into power for the first time.... no smoke no explosion just some radical dancing LEDs and sound. Beautiful sweet sexy sound. Tested the outputs of both A and B bus LRs, so far so good! 7 more cards to go. I reckon, if working efficiently, the remaining cards will take 2.5-3 hours a piece if I'm focused. I'm by no means an electrical engineer, so I'm providing my time table to give a labor estimate for those who are your average joe DIY hobbyists and might be interested in this build. I'll report back when it's all done! More pics and notes of the full build here. Awesome! Jealous! Can't wait to be doing this myself.
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Post by guitfiddler on Jul 8, 2018 21:35:51 GMT -6
Very Cool Bram!
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Post by hugostiglitz on Jul 10, 2018 2:45:51 GMT -6
More pics and notes of the full build here. Impressive built and great work mate! I have a question regarding the garAM10 OpAmps you use. Have you compared the garAM10 to any 2520-style DOA like the Rouge Five or gar2520? How do they differ in terms of sound and color? jeff: Which of your (Gary's) DOAs are your favourite or would you recommend to utilize with your ACA board as output of a summing mixer?
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Post by Guitar on Jul 10, 2018 6:33:05 GMT -6
More pics and notes of the full build here. Impressive built and great work mate! I have a question regarding the garAM10 OpAmps you use. Have you compared the garAM10 to any 2520-style DOA like the Rouge Five or gar2520? How do they differ in terms of sound and color? jeff: Which of your (Gary's) DOAs are your favourite or would you recommend to utilize with your ACA board as output of a summing mixer? The AM10 op amps are Quad Eight replicas, so you get in sort of a "Pacifica" direction if that's familiar to you. To me they sound a tiny bit brighter on top than a 2520 with less of a mid forward thing. Big bass as well. It's really hard to describe in words, but they do sound great. Just a big energetic sound.
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Post by bram on Jul 10, 2018 8:33:39 GMT -6
More pics and notes of the full build here. Impressive built and great work mate! I have a question regarding the garAM10 OpAmps you use. Have you compared the garAM10 to any 2520-style DOA like the Rouge Five or gar2520? How do they differ in terms of sound and color? jeff: Which of your (Gary's) DOAs are your favourite or would you recommend to utilize with your ACA board as output of a summing mixer? Thanks Hugo! Once the build is complete I will do some shoot outs with the different op-amps I have (gar2520, gar1730, LTL Rogue Five, garAM10) on a full mix and post the files for y’all. I did compare the AM10s with the 2520/1730 combo in a VP28. It was a quick test on a mono elec distorted guitar. At unity the differences were subtle, I would agree that the AM10s are less mid-forward and not as aggressive. However, cranking the input wide open is where clear differences emerge. The 2520 gets crunchy and nasty (in a tasteful way) fast. The AM10 breaks up later and doesn’t obliterate the signal like the 2520, it was also less bright. I also ran a mono acoustic drum loop through and preferred the 2520 over the AM10, it seemed to have more weight, punch, and brightness (but it’s easy to bias towards brighter things out of context).. In a full mix it might be a different situation. I think JohnK has red dots in his A Bus and a different configuration in B. He might like to chime in.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 10, 2018 9:43:49 GMT -6
I just have one bus. Red dots. Can’t go wrong with red dots.
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Post by bram on Jul 10, 2018 11:06:32 GMT -6
I just have one bus. Red dots. Can’t go wrong with red dots. Haven't tried the Red Dots, curious about Dippin' Dots too, afraid they might melt.
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Post by hugostiglitz on Jul 10, 2018 11:30:28 GMT -6
okay, thanks for your insight I think I might go for gar2520 on each input channel and then AM10 for the outputs of my summing mixer
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Post by bram on Jul 10, 2018 11:44:18 GMT -6
okay, thanks for your insight I think I might go for gar2520 on each input channel and then AM10 for the outputs of my summing mixer The Sumbus input channels use DTO5 op-amps. They aren't in the 2520 format.
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Post by hugostiglitz on Jul 10, 2018 16:30:53 GMT -6
okay, thanks for your insight I think I might go for gar2520 on each input channel and then AM10 for the outputs of my summing mixer The Sumbus input channels use DTO5 op-amps. They aren't in the 2520 format. I know.. thanks for the heads up still. But I am not working on Jeffs SumBus ACA but on another project with 2520 format DOAs
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Post by bram on Jul 10, 2018 16:42:38 GMT -6
Ah! Nice, let us know how it turns out.
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Post by tasteliketape on Jul 10, 2018 18:04:26 GMT -6
I know this is a new product but ,for the few that have a working model anyone tried a Zulu after the SumBus? I’m thinking might really be an awesome combo
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Post by indiehouse on Jul 10, 2018 19:23:25 GMT -6
I know this is a new product but ,for the few that have a working model anyone tried a Zulu after the SumBus? I’m thinking might really be an awesome combo You’d really need some make up gain, for sure. Both units are down like 6db’s or so.
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