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Post by tim on Feb 10, 2021 22:13:23 GMT -6
Is the analog summed version a tad bit louder than the digital summed version? Sounds like it to me but I'm currently watching this video on my phone. 😂
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Post by bartacusad on Feb 10, 2021 22:14:23 GMT -6
Are there any samples/clips/tests of 8 channel SumBus vs 16-32 channels out there that anyone has done? Or at least with the SumBus and without? If you have a song that you don't mind sharing with the group here I'll do this test so everyone can hear for themselves. I have been working with the SumBus for almost 4 years now starting with Jeff's Beta version. I have 16 channels so that'll be plenty to satisfy your question. The SumBus loses 6dB of gain on the output so I am making up that gain with a pair of VP28s with RedDots and 0252 Op Amps. This won't affect the sound of the summing but just FYI. The non linearities between channels on the SumBus, just like any other consoles are what give it the "console" sound. Also, there are lots of different configurations of transformer and op amps that make a pretty big difference so that is something to keep in mind. My A bus is my drum and bass bus with the Litz 2520 transformers and 0252 op amps and my B Bus is the High Nickel transformer with the Scott Leiber 1731. I will say from the outset though that the program material can have a lot to do with the difference you're able to perceive. Sometimes it's just a more extende bottom end with more sonic space and sometimes it's just that everything sounds better. Message me for for specific stems and email.
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Feb 11, 2021 22:35:50 GMT -6
Are there any samples/clips/tests of 8 channel SumBus vs 16-32 channels out there that anyone has done? Or at least with the SumBus and without? If you have a song that you don't mind sharing with the group here I'll do this test so everyone can hear for themselves. I have been working with the SumBus for almost 4 years now starting with Jeff's Beta version. I have 16 channels so that'll be plenty to satisfy your question. The SumBus loses 6dB of gain on the output so I am making up that gain with a pair of VP28s with RedDots and 0252 Op Amps. This won't affect the sound of the summing but just FYI. The non linearities between channels on the SumBus, just like any other consoles are what give it the "console" sound. Also, there are lots of different configurations of transformer and op amps that make a pretty big difference so that is something to keep in mind. My A bus is my drum and bass bus with the Litz 2520 transformers and 0252 op amps and my B Bus is the High Nickel transformer with the Scott Leiber 1731. I will say from the outset though that the program material can have a lot to do with the difference you're able to perceive. Sometimes it's just a more extende bottom end with more sonic space and sometimes it's just that everything sounds better. Message me for for specific stems and email. That is really cool of you to offer! Look forward to where this thread goes. And, cool how you're using the two buses.
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Post by ragan on May 19, 2021 23:58:11 GMT -6
Has anyone ever shared any clips of the SumBus? I'm really interested in this route but haven't heard anything, at least not for quite awhile. I feel like I heard a comparison some years back but can't seem to find it.
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Post by Blackdawg on May 20, 2021 0:02:16 GMT -6
I haven't seen any. Sadly Im not sure when this will be back in stock either..
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Post by jsteiger on May 20, 2021 13:43:36 GMT -6
Has anyone ever shared any clips of the SumBus? I'm really interested in this route but haven't heard anything, at least not for quite awhile. I feel like I heard a comparison some years back but can't seem to find it. Its not a comparison but the following tracks are SumBus mixes.
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Post by OtisGreying on Aug 5, 2021 0:15:54 GMT -6
I have a question that maybe is obvious. A mastering engineer I met mentioned to me how much cohesion and glue he was getting from his new 5088 console. And mentioned 96 volts a ton, and how the headroom is phenomenal. Is the extra headroom provided by a console given in a summing mixer like the CAPI? Like I said he mentioned 96 volts a ton so to me it sounds like you need the actual big board to get that much power running through the equipment, so a outboard 3u or 4u summing mixer wouldn't take such power, I think? Any help is appreciated.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,978
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Post by ericn on Aug 5, 2021 8:00:03 GMT -6
I have a question that maybe is obvious. A mastering engineer I met mentioned to me how much cohesion and glue he was getting from his new 5088 console. And mentioned 96 volts a ton, and how the headroom is phenomenal. Is the extra headroom provided by a console given in a summing mixer like the CAPI? Like I said he mentioned 96 volts a ton so to me it sounds like you need the actual big board to get that much power running through the equipment, so a outboard 3u or 4u summing mixer wouldn't take such power, I think? Any help is appreciated. Your getting into what really amounts to personal taste aesthetics here. The 5088 is a very unique beast with its 96 volt architecture. In general a smaller mixer is going to be lower in noise and distortion than it’s bigger brothers because there is just less stuff there. It’s always been funny to see guys who think the Bigger DDA’s are better boards than my little FMR, they don’t realize same basic circuit just more stuff that can muck it up.
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Post by matt@IAA on Aug 5, 2021 9:04:52 GMT -6
The only absolute about using high voltage rails is that you get a theoretical increase in headroom at a rate of 6 dB per doubling of the voltage rails. A traditional +/-15V unit can output around 26 dBu. It is a case of diminishing returns for sure.
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 5, 2021 9:25:45 GMT -6
I can tell you first hand there’s a LOT more headroom with the Sumbus.
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Post by Blackdawg on Aug 5, 2021 10:06:04 GMT -6
Been out of stock for months though. And no real hope that it'll be in stock any time soon. Transformers are in very short supply and the other units that use them(mic pres and such) sell much faster and get priority.
So yeah..
Basically i regret not getting the last one in stock last year.
But also important to remember then Sumbuss has a -6dB output so that also is interesting to play with. And might lend people to push into the sumbuss harder too.
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Post by Pueblo Audio on Aug 5, 2021 13:40:56 GMT -6
I can tell you first hand there’s a LOT more headroom with the Sumbus. Hi, JohnKenn! I could not find any published specs for the Capi nor the Neve. Even though the Neve has much higher power supply rails, they both have input and output transformers which I would expect to be the limiting factor in their respective headroom figures (whatever they might be). By headroom, I mean the level above nominal which a device can reproduce with a stated amount of distortion. Headroom specs without distortion figures are misleading. For example, say two devices both claim headroom of +26dBu. But what if Device A has 0.5% distortion at that level while Device B has 4.0%? Clearly they do not actually have the same headroom performance. One remains reasonably punchy while the other goes fizz and crackle. What would be more comparable and informative would be knowing which level Device B can achieve that 0.5% figure (the same distortion amount as Device A). Interested in what led you to say the Capi had a lot more headroom?
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Post by the other mark williams on Aug 5, 2021 16:22:06 GMT -6
I can tell you first hand there’s a LOT more headroom with the Sumbus. John, are you still using a SumBus? For some reason I thought you had gone back ITB. I'll say this: I re-read the first few pages of this thread over the past couple days, and it was interesting seeing how many of us were thrilled about the SumBus at launch, but I'm not sure how many folks actually ended up adopting it and still use it. I'm still super interested in it, personally, but it's obviously fairly unobtanium at this time. Even if it were readily available, I'm not sure I could justify the expense in my workflow, as much as I'd like to be able to.
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Post by Blackdawg on Aug 5, 2021 17:44:33 GMT -6
I can tell you first hand there’s a LOT more headroom with the Sumbus. John, are you still using a SumBus? For some reason I thought you had gone back ITB. I'll say this: I re-read the first few pages of this thread over the past couple days, and it was interesting seeing how many of us were thrilled about the SumBus at launch, but I'm not sure how many folks actually ended up adopting it and still use it. I'm still super interested in it, personally, but it's obviously fairly unobtanium at this time. Even if it were readily available, I'm not sure I could justify the expense in my workflow, as much as I'd like to be able to. I also think for a lot of people it means expansion of I/O to use it really well and often so..more money. Plus real time renders(i don't think that is that big an issue..) and also its a HUGE kit to build.
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Post by the other mark williams on Aug 5, 2021 21:40:46 GMT -6
I'll say this: I re-read the first few pages of this thread over the past couple days, and it was interesting seeing how many of us were thrilled about the SumBus at launch, but I'm not sure how many folks actually ended up adopting it and still use it. I'm still super interested in it, personally, but it's obviously fairly unobtanium at this time. Even if it were readily available, I'm not sure I could justify the expense in my workflow, as much as I'd like to be able to. I also think for a lot of people it means expansion of I/O to use it really well and often so..more money. Plus real time renders(i don't think that is that big an issue..) and also its a HUGE kit to build. Yeah, absolutely to all of that, Blackdawg. I would have to pay someone to build it for me. Even if I had the soldering skills (spoiler alert: I don't), I certainly can't spare the time it would take me to build it. And yes, I would want at least 8 more D/A outs, so more $. Still, a fella can dream.
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Aug 5, 2021 21:59:21 GMT -6
John, are you still using a SumBus? For some reason I thought you had gone back ITB. I'll say this: I re-read the first few pages of this thread over the past couple days, and it was interesting seeing how many of us were thrilled about the SumBus at launch, but I'm not sure how many folks actually ended up adopting it and still use it. I'm still super interested in it, personally, but it's obviously fairly unobtanium at this time. Even if it were readily available, I'm not sure I could justify the expense in my workflow, as much as I'd like to be able to. I also think for a lot of people it means expansion of I/O to use it really well and often so..more money. Plus real time renders(i don't think that is that big an issue..) and also its a HUGE kit to build. Huge kit just like a console! The SumBus is a work of art. Grateful to have it.
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Post by Blackdawg on Aug 5, 2021 22:03:24 GMT -6
I also think for a lot of people it means expansion of I/O to use it really well and often so..more money. Plus real time renders(i don't think that is that big an issue..) and also its a HUGE kit to build. Yeah, absolutely to all of that, Blackdawg. I would have to pay someone to build it for me. Even if I had the soldering skills (spoiler alert: I don't), I certainly can't spare the time it would take me to build it. And yes, I would want at least 8 more D/A outs, so more $. Still, a fella can dream. That you can! haha I also think for a lot of people it means expansion of I/O to use it really well and often so..more money. Plus real time renders(i don't think that is that big an issue..) and also its a HUGE kit to build. Huge kit just like a console! The SumBus is a work of art. Grateful to have it. Im jealous. I knew I should have grabbed the one at Black Friday...oh well. Some day it'll come back. Hopefully.
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Aug 5, 2021 22:06:57 GMT -6
The supply chains will figure themselves out and hopefully, they'll be able to get what they need to get the kits going.
Audio Bacon. I'm jonesing for AB for tracking.
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Post by OtisGreying on Aug 5, 2021 22:12:20 GMT -6
The supply chains will figure themselves out and hopefully, they'll be able to get what they need to get the kits going.
Audio Bacon. I'm jonesing for AB for tracking.
Bat do you ever find yourself pushing level and sources into the CAPI for benefit like one would push a console?
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Aug 5, 2021 22:25:44 GMT -6
The supply chains will figure themselves out and hopefully, they'll be able to get what they need to get the kits going. Audio Bacon. I'm jonesing for AB for tracking.
Bat do you ever find yourself pushing level and sources into the CAPI for benefit like one would push a console? I do for sure, but I'm not sure my perspective would be the most accurate from the console angle. I've recorded on many as an artist but not sure how the SumBus relates to LFC's.
Typically, I'm driving the front end mics and preamps.
The SB is 100% the reason I think our recent releases sound a bit smoother, as I'd like to think they do. It does a thing, the glue and all on the way in. And it's really flexible mono/stereo and two buses. Hope that's helpful.
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Post by jsteiger on Aug 9, 2021 8:24:49 GMT -6
The SumBus can handle +28dBu at 1% THD+N. Classic big boy console specs.
FYI, we have parts kits sorted. We are having hella trouble with transformers. In a creative move, we are getting a bunch of inputs in square mu cans since the round cans are in short supply. I need to get another version of the input PCB since the square can will not work on the round can version. We should have them in about 2 weeks or so.
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 9, 2021 8:51:54 GMT -6
The SumBus can handle +28dBu at 1% THD+N. Classic big boy console specs. FYI, we have parts kits sorted. We are having hella trouble with transformers. In a creative move, we are getting a bunch of inputs in square mu cans since the round cans are in short supply. I need to get another version of the input PCB since the square can will not work on the round can version. We should have them in about 2 weeks or so. Soon to be a future legendary unobtanium product. “Oh - you have a Square Can Sumbus.”
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Post by robschnapf on Aug 9, 2021 9:05:35 GMT -6
The transformer situation seems to sketchy lately. Isn’t cinemag way behind?
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Post by Blackdawg on Aug 9, 2021 12:21:24 GMT -6
The SumBus can handle +28dBu at 1% THD+N. Classic big boy console specs. FYI, we have parts kits sorted. We are having hella trouble with transformers. In a creative move, we are getting a bunch of inputs in square mu cans since the round cans are in short supply. I need to get another version of the input PCB since the square can will not work on the round can version. We should have them in about 2 weeks or so. Oh man! that is good news! Can't wait.
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Post by keymod on Aug 9, 2021 15:41:26 GMT -6
There were originally supposed to be two versions of the sum bus, IIRC - a 16 & a 32?? Never saw a kit available for the 16, though I may be wrong. Curious about that....
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