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Patchbays
Feb 26, 2017 15:42:30 GMT -6
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Post by ChaseUTB on Feb 26, 2017 15:42:30 GMT -6
Hey guys I need some help... Pretty Please π
How many I/o patchbay do I need? ( prob need extra for future growth ) 18 x 24 simultaneous input/output channels: β’ Eight channels of analog-to-digital conversion via mic, line, or high-impedance inputs β’ 14 channels of digital-to-analog conversion via: β’ Eight mono line outputs β’ Stereo monitor outputs β’ Two stereo headphone outputs β’ 10 channels of digital I/O via: β’ Eight channels ADAT Optical I/O with S/MUX for high sample rates β’ Two channels coaxial S/PDIF I/O with sample rate conversion β’ Two FireWire 800 ports for daisy-chaining - HW β’ SA4000 ( 2 ch bus comp ) β’ WA76 ( mono comp ) β’ Aurora Audio GTQ2 pre and eq (2ch pre 1 set of I/O per ch for mic & line) ( anyone have one for sale, please let me know! call me john kenn jr ππ€ ) β’ Want to add other HW as I can Apollo only has 8 simultaneous inputs
What type of connectors? Apollo is TRS.. opinions on TT/ bantam jack? Are they the cheapest and most reliable?
I want to have the GTQ2 outputs patched to where it can be used for recording and mixing as well as the wa76... So patch the line 1 output ( gtq2 ch 1 output ) into the line 3 input ( wa76 input ) and patch line 3 output ( wa76 output ) back into line input 1 on the bay (Apollo line input 1 ) to record into PT as line input 1, and this is fully normalled operation?
I want to have two Apollo Preamps on the bay but the Apollo has no preamp sends or outputs what do I do patch bay wise? ( aside from plugging mic output into Apollo ) How will my Pro Tools H/W inserts patch for the wa76 and gtq2? ( the sa4000 will be easy since I don't track with it, I can match the I/o on the patch bay ( line output 5-6 patched to line input 5-6.. If fully normalled would I have to patch that ( I think No, but I'm asking )
Also, the Apollo has 2 HP outputs and 2 monitor outputs, would the monitor outputs be included in the patch bay? I'm pretty sure the HP outputs would be, however they don't have corresponding inputs so would these be on the patch bay?
Can the same patch bay route analog and digital signals? Would be cool to have all I/O on one bay, plus this would help me integrate more gear ( prob FX units, HearBack etc.
Does the bay come soldered?
Would testing for continuity with a DMM show proper or complete solder connections? ( been 4 years since my 12 week solder class )
I see some bays come with normal switching, opinions?
Average cost for bay and cables?
Please help Thank you in advance
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Patchbays
Feb 26, 2017 16:07:43 GMT -6
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Post by ChaseUTB on Feb 26, 2017 16:07:43 GMT -6
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Post by drbill on Feb 26, 2017 17:07:38 GMT -6
First off, you've got Digital Audio of two different types, Analog Audio, Firewire, Line level, Headphone level, etc.. Theoretically, these all need to be dealt with differently, on a different patch bay. You can run all the analog - Line level, Headphones, etc. on one (or more) bays. Digital stuff in another bay. Firewire....ugh....maybe on a hub or something. As far as AMOUNT of what you think you will need - double it - or maybe more. You WILL use it eventually. Personally, I'd suggest TT bays. One thing is for sure, if you cheap out, go too minimal, don't have a well thought out plan, or try to save money at the expense of flexibility, you will end up building another down the line. Patch bays, interconnects and wiring are not cheap, and they are not glamorous, but they are essential to a smooth work flow. Pay now, or pay again later. Good luck.
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Patchbays
Feb 26, 2017 21:21:09 GMT -6
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Post by ChaseUTB on Feb 26, 2017 21:21:09 GMT -6
Thanks for the answers regarding going big and not cheaping out as well as TT connections. I kinda knew that stuff and am more interested in the layout normal wise and if I have the correct understanding as well as and which patch bay to get. The larger versions of what I linked are astronomically expensive... Please help: 1. What connector is best for the back of the patch bay if my Apollo and HW is trs? I assume TRS is fine but after reading thru this thread some have issues with trs output and inputs on the bay? 2. I want to have the GTQ2 outputs patched to where it can be used for recording and HW inserts for mixing as well as the wa76... If I have the gtq2 on output 1-2 of the bay, to record with compression would I patch output 1 on the bay to input 3 ( wa76 input ) then patch line 3 output ( wa76 output ) back to input 1 on the patch bay (Apollo line input 1 ) to record into PT as line input 1, and this is fully normalled operation? 3. I want to have two Apollo Preamps on the bay but the Apollo has no preamp sends or outputs what do I do patch bay wise? ( aside from plugging mic output into Apollo ) 4. How will my Pro Tools H/W inserts patch for the wa76 and gtq2? ( the sa4000 will be easy since I don't track with it, I can match the I/o on the patch bay ( sa4000 on bay line input / output 5-6 patched to line input 5-6.. If fully normalled would I have to patch that ( I think No, but I'm asking ) Also, the Apollo has 2 HP outputs and 2 monitor outputs, would the monitor outputs be included in the patch bay? I'm pretty sure the HP outputs would be, however they don't have corresponding inputs so would these be on the patch bay? Does the bay come soldered? How do people feel about the patch bays that switch from full to half to pass thru? Best positioning for interconnect? I think #2 1.Bay, HW , Apollo with the bay on top 2.HW on top then bay in the middle then Apollo on bottom www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/neutrik-48-point-trs-patchbay?pfm=item_page.rr1Is this a good one that comes soldered? π What about buying a used patch bay? Please help Thanks
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Feb 26, 2017 21:28:56 GMT -6
Those Neutrik's like all $100 Chinese bays are great, great vent panels! Give Misterpatchbay a ring! Bob will guide you, save you some coin and put a great patchbay in your rack! How good of resources is Bob? Somebody had a patchbay question I couldn't answer the other day and Misterpatchbay was my first call for an answer!
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Patchbays
Feb 26, 2017 22:01:56 GMT -6
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Post by ChaseUTB on Feb 26, 2017 22:01:56 GMT -6
Those Neutrik's like all $100 Chinese bays are great, great vent panels! Give Misterpatchbay a ring! Bob will guide you, save you some coin and put a great patchbay in your rack! How good of resources is Bob? Somebody had a patchbay question I couldn't answer the other day and Misterpatchbay was my first call for an answer! Is neutrik not high quality connectors / bays / overall products? Mr. Patch Bay Seems very pricey ... www.misterpatchbay.com/patchbays/aa-48-trs-db-25-patchbay.htmlAnd it seems it will be even more to ask for trs connectors on the back for the link above... I would like to have the patch bay be TT / bantam jack to TRS... I feel like TT cables will be cheaper for better quality than TRS to TRS for the patching. This custom option seems best it is not reasonable price wise... $527 www.misterpatchbay.com/patchbays/custom-tt-to-trs-short-cables-patchbay.html
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Post by drbill on Feb 26, 2017 22:22:59 GMT -6
1. None. These should be dealt with as multi-pair interconnects IMO. Rear of bay should be - a femaie(Elco preferred, or DB25 if necessary - to Male to Male interconnect (Elco or DB25). Rear of outboard over other racks should be terminated on the rear of the rack in female Elco's or DB25's. So rack connect to patch bays via M to M interconnects. Rear of equipment racks terminate with Female Elco's or DB25's that fan out into XLR's (or TRS if you must). If you need to get into the back of something that's not XLR - then a short interconnect adapter cable. This allows for Grounding, Balanced, Unbalanced, and various connections in an elegant and easily swappable way. Hard soldering or using non standardized (XLR) connections is going to make you redo things when you swap out gear. And this WILL happen. 2. This is what patch bays are for. Patching things differently. I prefer half-normals or non-normaled for tie lines. Choose your most used application, set up outputs on the top row, inputs on the bottom, and half normal if appropriate. Tie lines should be in a non-normaled bay (theoretically) and patched in as necessary. Then, when you need things patched differently, grab some TT cables and get to patching. 3. I honestly have no idea what you mean here..... 4. Normals or half normals do not require patch cords if you set them up right. PT outputs on the top row of bay 1. Inputs for gear you want PT hardware inserts for on the bottom row of bay 1. Bay 2 top row is the output of the aforementioned gear normal or half normaled to the Input (bottom row) of your PT interface. 4B. In a great bay - EVERY, ALL, EVERYTHING comes up on the patch bay. This is why you bought a patch bay to begin with. To keep from crawling behind your gear racks. 4C. Hopefully not. Soldered bays are horrid, and unless they are terminated into Female Elco's or DB25's ala #1, they are destined to cause you grief as your studio morphs, changes,and grows. Or if you need to move a rack.... 4D. Those kinds of bays are only for people who : a.) don't know what they are doing, b.) have limited rack space and are trying to fit all their connections into one bay (unwise IMO), c.) are for people with no knowledge of how to wire a bay correctly, d.) have more money than common sense. Gear GROWS. it very rarely shrinks. Build bays with MORE connection points than you will need, because some day you WILL need it. Unless you like building bays and rebuilding bays and reconfiguring bays, and scrapping bays for better and larger ones, or are just into self mutilation - get something that can grow 3X's bigger than you EVER think you could POSSIBLY need. Do it right, and you will never have to redo a bay again. Do it wrong or cheap out, and your patch bay will become a "work in progress" for the next "x" years (how ever long you live.) 4e.) I have no idea what you're talking about on this one... 4f.) I would not buy that bay. Many here will tell you how great they are. That's a temporary, I'm only in this for a year type setup. If you plan on doing this in 20 years, do it right. TT patch bays from ADC, Switchcraft, Mosses & Mitchell, etc. ONLY - preferably with rear terminations that can grow and last. Not a TRS bay. Sorry. I can hook up 48 i/o of ins and outs to a rack in 5 minutes. FIVE minutes with FOUR (4) cables - Elco 90's with 24 pair Mogami. That's 96 interconnections. Envision doing that with 96 TRS cables. Ugh. 4g.) If you are buying high quality TT bays, no problem. I wouldn't touch a used TRS bay if you paid me to use it. A bay like this : www.ebay.com/itm/2-96-Point-TT-Rack-I-O-Patch-Bays-90-Pin-EDAC-ELCO-w-Furman-PL-Plus-23511-/191929643538?hash=item2cafe5f212:g:KUwAAOSw0fhXk7mh ABSOLUTELY. It will last your lifetime and your kids lifetimes. I don't agree with the female / male outputs, but those can be repinned easily. This is another example for a KILLER price : www.ebay.com/itm/Audio-Accessories-TT-patch-bays-x-3-w-Avedis-Audio-Line-pad-z-ELCO-in-outs-/302236111977?hash=item465ead1469:g:~ooAAOSw32lYpg4ILooks to be wired with Mogami and already pinned out to Elco's. A 288 point bay, terminated in Elco's (the best) in a nice road case for $400 - the price of about 3-4 of those crappy TRS bays...... If all this is the least bit confusing, or if you are unaware of the best, most ergonomic way to do it, you've got a LOT of studying to do - normals, half normals, non normaled tie lines, grounding schemes, how to telescope cables, whether or not to tie the shields or float them on the bays, whether or not to tie shields down on the connectors going to your gear, star grounding, and on and on. All this from a man who's learned his lesson by spending multiple tens of thousands on wire, interconnects, connectors and patch bays. Now, never building another bay - only adding to the existing one as stuff grows, because I learned my lessons the hard way. i'm tired, it's late, i'm typing fast. I'm sure I've messed something up. feel free to ask again if I got close but missed your mark. bp
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ericn
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Patchbays
Feb 27, 2017 7:28:44 GMT -6
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Post by ericn on Feb 27, 2017 7:28:44 GMT -6
Those Neutrik's like all $100 Chinese bays are great, great vent panels! Give Misterpatchbay a ring! Bob will guide you, save you some coin and put a great patchbay in your rack! How good of resources is Bob? Somebody had a patchbay question I couldn't answer the other day and Misterpatchbay was my first call for an answer! Is neutrik not high quality connectors / bays / overall products? Mr. Patch Bay Seems very pricey ... www.misterpatchbay.com/patchbays/aa-48-trs-db-25-patchbay.htmlAnd it seems it will be even more to ask for trs connectors on the back for the link above... I would like to have the patch bay be TT / bantam jack to TRS... I feel like TT cables will be cheaper for better quality than TRS to TRS for the patching. This custom option seems best it is not reasonable price wise... $527 www.misterpatchbay.com/patchbays/custom-tt-to-trs-short-cables-patchbay.htmlNeutrik' makes great connectors, but these bays use the pieces Neutrik acquired when they bought Rean in the 90's same modules as DBX, Behringer and others. The Jacks are a switching version of the jacks you will find in most cheap Chinese gear, they are not made for nor rated for the possible amount of plugging / unplugging. Neutrik has a line of real bays they start at $1000! If you don't want to solder or use D-sub or Elco then look at the Used Punch block Bays Bob has! A bay is the center piece where most signals will pass do you really want to skimp? Plus if you go TT you have twice the density, got ground loops? Well the $100 Chinese batts have no provisions for any changing of the grounding!
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Patchbays
Feb 27, 2017 8:00:31 GMT -6
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Post by ChaseUTB on Feb 27, 2017 8:00:31 GMT -6
ericnThanks again for your response. What do you mean when you say " twice the density " Ground loops? Why is a db25 connector cheaper than TRS connections? Disadvantage of a TT patch bay vs TRS vs ...... This is mostly new to me. My buddy has a tdm PT 10 HD setup with control 24 and his has the nice switch craft patch bay where you can choose fully normalled, half etc. I want to get my patch bay configured then help him.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Feb 27, 2017 8:37:28 GMT -6
ericnThanks again for your response. What do you mean when you say " twice the density " Ground loops? Why is a db25 connector cheaper than TRS connections? Disadvantage of a TT patch bay vs TRS vs ...... This is mostly new to me. My buddy has a tdm PT 10 HD setup with control 24 and his has the nice switch craft patch bay where you can choose fully normalled, half etc. I want to get my patch bay configured then help him. Density you can put 96 jacks, 2 rows of 48 with or more in a rack space with Bantam/ TT. The Advantage of having Elcos or Dsubs are In most cases multiple connections are being routed to approximately the same place, this makes it easier and cleaner. Dsub is probably the cheapest commonly used audio connector and let's you pack the most connections in the least amount of space. As systems in crease in complexity and amount the possibility of hum And need for grounding options pops it's head, with the cheap Made in China modular bays you have no options for the audio ground! The only Advantage to the $100 bays are price and that they use the Common 1/4 plug that's it! Those Switchcraft bays are awesome, but they are not cheap! TT. And military longframe bays use a jack design that has been serving us since the early days of telephone, they are a work of engineering art, take a good look at these and the cheap thin nickle plated jacks used in your inexpensive 1/4 bays! There is no better place to learn or relearn soldering than a nice old bay! For a number of years Proco had a great 1/4 bay that used old school design jacks and had a switch for setting normal, but they were unbalanced!
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Patchbays
Feb 27, 2017 8:48:35 GMT -6
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Post by ChaseUTB on Feb 27, 2017 8:48:35 GMT -6
ericn Thanks man you are awesome π I don't mind soldering in fact it may help me get my ass in gear with some of this diy I have been longing for. Thanks for all the help, I will look at some bats I can solder that are balanced, and will probably look at mister patch bay because his bats that aren't soldered by him are more reasonable priced... They are still costly but I do understand that every signal I will record will be going thru this bay so it's just as important that's it's quality is up to par with the rest of the equipment that it will interface with... I want the switch craft but it's $1000... I'm gone ask my buddy where he got his used... How can I test a patch bay to make sure the solder connections are secure and the inputs are passing signals to outputs ?
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ericn
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Patchbays
Feb 27, 2017 9:27:43 GMT -6
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Post by ericn on Feb 27, 2017 9:27:43 GMT -6
ericn Thanks man you are awesome π I don't mind soldering in fact it may help me get my ass in gear with some of this diy I have been longing for. Thanks for all the help, I will look at some bats I can solder that are balanced, and will probably look at mister patch bay because his bats that aren't soldered by him are more reasonable priced... They are still costly but I do understand that every signal I will record will be going thru this bay so it's just as important that's it's quality is up to par with the rest of the equipment that it will interface with... I want the switch craft but it's $1000... I'm gone ask my buddy where he got his used... How can I test a patch bay to make sure the solder connections are secure and the inputs are passing signals to outputs ? I use a combination of a VOM and one of my 3 or 4 behringer cable testers, with my bays wired to Dsub I use pair of Dsub to to TRS break outs I wire full normal in most places so I'll test adapter to adapter to make sure it passes the normal than break normal with a TT cable on top and make sure it passes, same with the bottom, then loop top to bottom with a patch cord! Can you do better on eBay ? Sure if you like tracking down problems! If you have tons of rack space you can score 2 space longframe bays for dirt cheap! I have a couple of 100 TT jacks pulled from cheap eBay bays !
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Post by drbill on Feb 27, 2017 15:41:29 GMT -6
Seems the days of dirt cheap TT / Elco bays on eBay are gone?? I used to see 96 point Bittree bays with ADC jacks in them and Elco's on the rear for $99.00 all the time - sometimes less. They seem long gone. They looked virtually unused - Bittree or one of their distributors might have been blowing out long term old stock over a couple of years, or perhaps some post production studios going under where they were never patched. Not sure. But they are nowhere to be seen now.... Glad I picked up $4-5,000 worth of bays for $400 or so.
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Patchbays
Feb 27, 2017 15:51:42 GMT -6
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Post by ChaseUTB on Feb 27, 2017 15:51:42 GMT -6
drbill I confused my i/o earlier. Been going crazy trying to reconfigure a buddy's studio... thanks to all you guys jcoutu1 ericn and others as well for taking the time to help me I really appreciate this: My proposed Analog patch bay! Full normal Row 1 : line out 1-8 , 2 HP 9-12 & Mon Out 13-14, Gtq2 15-16 , SA4000 17-18, wa76 19 , 20-24 open Row 2 : line in 1-8 , 9-14 open, gtq2 15-16, SA4000 17-18, Wa76 19, 20-24 ( Apollo preamps? These can only be used if the line inputs aren't ) so leave 20-24 open? Don't know if the HP or Mon need to be on the bay To record the Gtq2 -> wa76 -> PT : 1. Mic plugged into gtq2 pre ( I don't have mic lines ) 2. patch top row output 15 ( gtq2 ch 1 ) to bottom row input 19 ( wa76 input ) 2. Patch top row output 19 ( wa76 output ) back to bottom row input 1 ( Line input 1 on Apollo ) 3. Select line 1 in PT and record To use HW inserts with gtq2 using above bay setup: 1. Patch from bay top row output 5-6 ( Apollo line out 5-6 ) to bottom row inputs 15-16 ( gtq2 inputs ) 2. Patch top row outputs 15-16 ( gtq2 outputs ) back to bottom row inputs 5-6 ( Apollo line input 5-6 ) To use HW inserts with SA4000 1. Patch top row output 7-8 ( Apollo line 7-8 outs ) to bottom row input 17-18 ( SA4000 inputs ) 2. Patch top row outputs 17-18 ( SA4000 outputs ) back into bottom row inputs 7-8 ( Apollo line input 7-8 ) To use HW inserts wit wa76 1. Patch top row output 3 ( Apollo line out 3 ) into bottom row input 19 ( wa76 input ) 2. Patch top row output 19 ( wa76 output ) back into bottom row input 3 ( Apollo line input 3 ) Thanks again jcoutu1 for all the links and taking the time to break a few things down for me. As always you da man π What do techs charge to reconfigure studios? Hourly? Brief description for estimate of work : Have a studio that needs a complete re setup, from a new patchbay diagram and configuring + c24 proper setup HD wise with the monitoring b/c it's hard wired to the c24 when it would be better on a set of fm192 outs with a mon controller, or have the alt mon L-R be used instead of the 1-6 monitor setup...
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ericn
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Patchbays
Feb 27, 2017 17:50:32 GMT -6
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Post by ericn on Feb 27, 2017 17:50:32 GMT -6
Seems the days of dirt cheap TT / Elco bays on eBay are gone?? I used to see 96 point Bittree bays with ADC jacks in them and Elco's on the rear for $99.00 all the time - sometimes less. They seem long gone. They looked virtually unused - Bittree or one of their distributors might have been blowing out long term old stock over a couple of years, or perhaps some post production studios going under where they were never patched. Β Not sure. Β But they are nowhere to be seen now.... Glad I picked up $4-5,000 worth of bays for $400 or so. I was told a lot of the cheap bays were picked up by a bunch of the used broadcast dealers who would then re- list them for more $$. If you buy a cheap bay on eBay with any termination be ready to track some simple problems in a loome that is far bigger than you think. But if you know your part #s you can still get lucky if your patient!
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Post by drbill on Feb 27, 2017 18:18:00 GMT -6
Full normal Row 1 : line out 1-8 , 2 HP 9-12 & Mon Out 13-14, Gtq2 15-16 , SA4000 17-18, wa76 19 , 20-24 open Row 2 : line in 1-8 , 9-14 open, gtq2 15-16, SA4000 17-18, Wa76 19, 20-24 ( Apollo preamps? These can only be used if the line inputs aren't ) so leave 20-24 open? Don't have time to read the whole thing - dinner guests - but the above is a full normaled feedback loop. You DON'T want a full normal there. You want non-normaled tie lines. The top row feeds into the bottom row. You'd never patch your D/A straight back into you A/D. You HAVE to think signal flow. What normally goes to what.... Think of it like a console - like this : - Mic outputs feed >>> - Mic pre inputs - That's ONE bay. Group Console outputs feed>>> Tape Machine inputs - That's your second bay. Tape Machine Outputs feed>>> Console Tape/Monitor inputs - That's your third bay. An Aux send / Aux return bay : Left half 24 i/o - Aux Sends (from console) feeds > Reverb, Delay's and FX Inputs on the RIGHT half of that same bay : Reverb, Delay's and FX Outputs feeds > Console Aux Returns That's your fourth bay. Then add a 5th bay for all your misc. i/o. KEEP THINGS ORGANIZED EVEN IF YOU LEAVE EMPTY JACKS. The above mentioned will take care of 48 tape / DAW i/o and 48 channel inline console. Obviously what you have is different, but learn from it and figure out things. Do NOT jam everything into the smallest space. Even if I was running 24 on a console or DAW I'd still set up for 48 wide. Raw patch bays are WAY cheaper than redoing this **** all the time. You WILL grow. You DON'T have Group Outputs on the top row normaled to Console Monitor Inputs on the bottom row -- FEEDBACK loop. You can do it non-normaled if you like, but it's still weird for anything but tie lines. hopefully that helps some. Do some reading of technical papers on patch bays on the internet. That will help you FAR more than our random comments here.
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Patchbays
Feb 27, 2017 18:42:14 GMT -6
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Post by ChaseUTB on Feb 27, 2017 18:42:14 GMT -6
drbillI don't have a console.. I know traditionally the mic goes to the mic lines and the mic lines are tied into the CR with to the console or to a dedicated mic patch bay. . Thanks again. Ok so on normalled! I have asked a few people regarding my proposed patch bay setup and you are the first to mention this feedback loop. Man, I thought I had it π΅π© I will go do more studying regarding normal/ half normal / no normal / etc. Maybe because I explained myself as I would actually taking the steps to patch this confused others. I have read a few things and went back over my notes and every YouTube vid I have watched has been not in depth enough so imma keep digging. Thanks again for taking the time to write this noob level stuff out unfortunately with the event of PT we maybe spent a week ( 2 classes ) on patch bays and normalling setups..
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Feb 27, 2017 19:27:02 GMT -6
drbillI don't have a console.. I know traditionally the mic goes to the mic lines and the mic lines are tied into the CR with to the console or to a dedicated mic patch bay. . Thanks again. Ok so on normalled! I have asked a few people regarding my proposed patch bay setup and you are the first to mention this feedback loop. Man, I thought I had it π΅π© I will go do more studying regarding normal/ half normal / no normal / etc. Maybe because I explained myself as I would actually taking the steps to patch this confused others. I have read a few things and went back over my notes and every YouTube vid I have watched has been not in depth enough so imma keep digging. Thanks again for taking the time to write this noob level stuff out unfortunately with the event of PT we maybe spent a week ( 2 classes ) on patch bays and normalling setups.. Graph paper is your best friend for this use 3 rows, route top to bottom using middle row to figure out routing! Extra bays for simple problem solvers like phase reverse, pads, mults, even ISO Transformers and Phantom blocking old ribbons can be a godsend ! I have considered a 3 row bay to add stereo linking of Comps!
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Post by drbill on Feb 27, 2017 23:58:57 GMT -6
drbill I don't have a console.. I know traditionally the mic goes to the mic lines and the mic lines are tied into the CR with to the console or to a dedicated mic patch bay. . Thanks again. Ok so on normalled! I have asked a few people regarding my proposed patch bay setup and you are the first to mention this feedback loop. Man, I thought I had it π΅π© I will go do more studying regarding normal/ half normal / no normal / etc. Maybe because I explained myself as I would actually taking the steps to patch this confused others. I have read a few things and went back over my notes and every YouTube vid I have watched has been not in depth enough so imma keep digging. Thanks again for taking the time to write this noob level stuff out unfortunately with the event of PT we maybe spent a week ( 2 classes ) on patch bays and normalling setups.. i'm aware you don't have a console. I put that in to illustrate a point. Here's what you can do. Patch the output of your DAW channel 1 to the input of your DAW channel 1. Open a track in your daw with the input fed from 1, and the output going to 1. Put it into record or "input". Better turn your speakers down first.... You've been talking to the wrong few people. What you had setup is a classic feedback loop on any system I've ever worked on. Either that or you're not explaining it so that I can understand.
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Post by subspace on Feb 28, 2017 10:05:55 GMT -6
I keep a google doc spreadsheet of my patchbay lay-out, makes it easy to reference on my phone or iPad, especially laying under it in the dark: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1QBM2FE1FzPCTvbWcLdP15b6gLlhJjueKKHvKt83bQyE/edit?usp=sharing It's seven military 1/4" bays, 48 points each with solder connections, plus two spares. They came with the old Trident 16 years ago including looms for the desk and 24 track. The Trident desk conections are yellow, the little Audient desk connections are blue and all the outboard is gray. On the right between the row letters you can see if it's a normalled, half-normalled or non-normalled row, I try to keep entire rows consistent. You'll notice the first two bays are full normalled and the rest are half, those are the looms that came wired full normal for the 24 track and I wasn't about to re-do it all. Also notice that I patched the group outputs first then the direct outs to feed the 24 track. That's because the 24 track outputs feed the channels 1 to 1, so you don't want the direct outs to be normalled the same way or you'd get a feedback loop as soon as you hit line on the desk and record-enabled a track.
I like to stick row/patchpoint identifiers on the outboard to make patches easy to find, so the left channel on the Nail comp is IJ7, right channel is IJ8, etc. IJ has no normals as it's mainly outboard plus 8 line inputs at the end.
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Post by mhbunch on Feb 28, 2017 10:40:58 GMT -6
ChaseUTB I have a 96pt TT bay I could sell you for cheap. Just picked up 2 from a radio station that was going out of business. However be aware it is A LOT of soldering to wire your own. Each one of those points has 3 solder points. Plus 3 solder points on the other end for TRS or XLR. That's 576 solder points(according to my math). Took me 4 full days to wire mine in/troubleshoot. Not for the faint of heart. I upgraded from 2 cheap 48 neutrik patch bays that had developed a bunch of issues and headaches. Very glad to be done with those. PM me if interested don't want to clutter this thread.
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Patchbays
Feb 28, 2017 11:45:11 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by ChaseUTB on Feb 28, 2017 11:45:11 GMT -6
drbill Thank you for taking the time to write that out for me or yes I would have been in for a rude awakening... and for anyone else whonhas helped thanks I'm pretty sure I got this now ππ I'm used to having my i/o like this on my Apollo. Ex: I route out line output 5 to Wa76 input then wa76 output goes into line input 5. No feedback loop. Everything I have researched says to have HW processors " no normal " I mix more than record so I thought setting up the bay for a mixing setup was best. I guess I naively assumed signal only flowed from top to bottom and not continuously in a loop ( signal from top to bottom and signal back to top and then signal back to bottom and continuing like a hamster wheel ) {{ I think this is incorrect and it does not flow in a circle or continuously }}} My understanding of Normals: Full Normal: if A1 is full normal to B1 ( front of bay ), inserting a patch cable into A1 breaks the normal and the signal is no longer at B1, I created a new path. If A1 is half normalled to B1, I would create a split or new path while also still have the original normal path in tact ( ex: recording into pt dry and send to HW comp for wet into PT ). If A1 and B1 are No normal this requires me to patch from A1 to B1 to move the signal from one place to the next. No Normal Diagram: no mic pre outs A.Line Out 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 GTQ2 Outs 9 10 SA4000 Outs 11 12 WA76 out 13 B. Line In 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 GTQ2 Ins 9 10 SA4000 Ins 11 12 WA76 in 13 Using the diagram above as No normal for mixing ( no preamps) : to use the gtq2 eq as HW insert in PT -> patch A1-A2 ( line out 1-2 ) into B9-B10 ( gtq2 in ) then patch A9-A10 ( gtq2 outs ) into B1-B2 ( line in 1-2 ) . I then choose 1-2 for insert and can right click and rename For SA4000 using no normal diagram above : patch A3-A4 ( line out 3-4 ) into B11-B12 ( SA4000 inputs ). Then patch from A11-A12 ( SA4000 outs ) back into B3-B4 ( line in 3-4 ). Then choose insert 3-4 in PT insert I/o drop down and rename. For WA76 using no normal diagram above : Patch from A8 ( line out 8 ) into B13 ( WA76 input ). Then insert patch cable into A13 ( WA76 output ) and patch back into B8 ( line input 8 ) To record with GTQ2 pre and WA76 using no normal diagram above : unplug B9 and plug in mic output into GTQ2. Insert patch cable A9 ( GTQ2 ch1 out ) and patch into B13 ( WA76 input ). Then I insert cable into A13 ( WA76 out ) and patch into whichever line in I choose say B1 ( line in 1 ) Using the same diagram above as full normal: to use the GTQ2 eq, when I insert a patch cable into top row jack A1-A2 ( line out 1-2 ) signal will not flow to B1-B2 ( line in 1-2 ) I then patch into bottom row jack B9-B10 (GTQ2 inputs ) then insert patch cable from A9-A10 ( GTQ2 outputs ) and patch into B1-B2 ( line in 1-2 ) and choose insert 1-2 and rename for HW insert. Full Normal Diagram with WA76 No normal: no mic pre outs A . Line Out 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 GTQ2 9 10 SA4 11 12 WA76 13 14-24 B. GTQ2 In 1 2 3 4 SA4k 8 WA76 Line 9 10 11 12 13 14-24 To use the GTQ2 EQ As a HW insert from above: I would not patch anything because A1-A2 ( line out 1-2 ) are full normalled to B1-B2 ( GTQ2 inputs ) and and A9-A10 ( GTQ2 Out ) are full normalled to B9-B10 ( line in 1-2 ) then I would choose insert 1-2 in drop down insert I/o menu, then rename GTQ2. To use the SA4000 as a HW insert: A3-A4 ( line out 3-4 ) is full normalled to B3-B4 ( SA4000 inputs ) and A11-A12 (SA4000 outputs ) are full normal to B11-B12 ( line in 3-4 )I wouldn't patch, I would choose insert 3-4 in the insert menu I/o drop down and rename SA4000 To use the WA76 as a HW insert: A8 ( line out 8 ) is full normalled to B8 ( WA76 in ) and A13 ( WA76 output ) is full normalled to B13 ( line in 5 ). Then I would just choose Insert 5 in the insert I/o drop down menu. Then rename WA76. Using same diagram above To record with GTQ2 Pre and WA76 comp-> I unplug GTQ2 line input from back of bay and insert mic xlr output into GTQ2 input. I would then patch A9 ( GTQ2 ch1 out ) into B13 ( WA76 in ) then patch A13 ( WA76 out ) into B9 ( line in 1 ) to record with pre and and comp into PT. I probably will leave the WA76 to no normal because of ease of wanting to track and creativity is key. GTQ2 has one input for mic and line, may ask Geoff how much to add another input.
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Post by swurveman on Feb 28, 2017 13:19:35 GMT -6
drbill I don't have a console.. I know traditionally the mic goes to the mic lines and the mic lines are tied into the CR with to the console or to a dedicated mic patch bay. . Thanks again. Ok so on normalled! I have asked a few people regarding my proposed patch bay setup and you are the first to mention this feedback loop. Man, I thought I had it π΅π© I will go do more studying regarding normal/ half normal / no normal / etc. Maybe because I explained myself as I would actually taking the steps to patch this confused others. I have read a few things and went back over my notes and every YouTube vid I have watched has been not in depth enough so imma keep digging. Thanks again for taking the time to write this noob level stuff out unfortunately with the event of PT we maybe spent a week ( 2 classes ) on patch bays and normalling setups.. I had a feedback loop when I put my hardware on my patchbay and then tried using it as an insert in my DAW. To use my hardware for both mixing and tracking I put permanent cable connections between my A/D on one patchbay and my I/O of my hardware on another patchbay. I believe I non normalled the hardware to end the feedback loop, but you'll want to talk to whoever sells you your patchbay to address how you need to set up the normalling so this doesn't happen. Just my $02., but I think it's worth it for you to buy a junction box for your mics and put it on your patchbay. I bought an 8 channel one with a DSUB output that connects to my DSUB patchbay and I have everything arranged like this on two DSUB patchbays: 8 Mics from Junction Box 8 Preamp Input 8 Preamp outputs 8 Converter Ins I can take any mic source and patch it into different preamps to hear how they sound comparatively So, if you have an acoustic guitar and want to hear how it sound on a clean preamp vs. a colored one, you can just patch the mic on the guitar at the patchbay into different preamps, instead of having to change the mic line at the preamp. This makes everything so much easier. More $02: Do not skimp on cost for your patchbays. It's the center of your studio. So, you don't want it messing up. Good ones are not cheap and neither is the cabling. And even if you have a good one, there will be routing problems. I just had a problem that turned out to be a DSUB connector on one of my DSUB cables. I had to check switches on the patchbay and all the input and output cabling before I found the source of the problem. So, even though it can be an immense benefit for routing, when something goes wrong it takes time to troubleshoot and is a hassle. Finally, make sure you put the patchbay in a place that you can easily get to the connectors and the switches. When something goes wrong you want to be able to easily get to those things.
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Post by mulmany on Feb 28, 2017 15:04:31 GMT -6
I just wired up 3 2u 96 point TT Elco bays. I probably will be required to redo some of it, since I tried to fit it all in one 6u rack.
Top row A - Mic output 1-24 full normal to mic pre input 1-24 (using ground switching jacks). Bottom Row 24-32 non normaled mic pre inputs.
Top row B - mic pre outputs 1-32 half-normal to interface inputs 1-32.
Top row C - interface outputs. Bottom row unused for now.
Input non+normal Outputs 33-48 on all bays are inserts. So all my Comps, EQ, and FX live here.
It gives me 24 mic channels, 32 mic pre, interface, and insert I/O. Plus there is 8 extra for "other".
I set up normals so that during tracking I don't need to patch, unless I want to use a different pre then "normal", or patch in an insert.
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Patchbays
Feb 28, 2017 19:41:29 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by ChaseUTB on Feb 28, 2017 19:41:29 GMT -6
swurveman thanks for helping π I don't have 8 mics and no external preamps until I find a gtq2 used. (Getting soon) Then I will have two line outputs ( + 2 unbalanced jacks that supposedly send the same level signal ). However the GTQ2 is also an EQ and that's its main purpose so I am trying to put my interface line outputs and HW line outputs as well as interface line inputs and HW line inputs for mixing on the patch bay I guess the switchcraft is what I'm going to get because of the convenience plus my buddy studio has this one so all my diagrams and patch routing posts have been based off this switchcraft model.. this does aes/ eBay as well and it daub on back so why would I need multiple of these? I should be able to route whatever because it's only line level no preamp outs, no mic lines panel, no console ins or outs, no send and returns, no subgrouo/ aux busses, no tape machine returns π€ www.1staudiousa.com/i1/spatch.jpgThis has inputs on the top back and outputs on the bottom back and ability to change each TT normal choice with a screwdriver. The manual says this: Q: Why are the inputs on the top row and the outputs on the bottom row when it should be reversed? A: Make sure that any cables going to and coming from the StudioPatch are reaching their desired inputs and/or outputs. ( maybe this is why I am getting confused ? ) ( Wouldn't I have my line outs go to back top row switchcraft inputs 1-8 ) There is a some used ones on eBay for great prices but I don't have an eBay account and most e bay sellers don't take buyers with no history seriously from what I have heard. So I'm trying to figure out how to snag one used. What is messing me up is the lack of having the stuff in front of me to get my hands dirty. I keep having to draw and think about it. And for some reason I'm having an issue with understanding the back inputs / outputs because apparently the switchcraft is opposite?
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