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Post by drbill on Dec 17, 2016 18:34:56 GMT -6
Yup, not a fan of DB25's either. I've used some beat Elco's that grinded so bad while screwing them down. Made me cringe haha. That's usually from bent pins or not lining them up right when you seat them.
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Post by drbill on Dec 17, 2016 21:37:56 GMT -6
By the way, following up on my post above, DrBill provided a bunch of help in setting up my patchbays. And he's not aware of it. I read several old posts of his from another forum where he went into detail on his once-upon-a-time set up, and I got a lot of my ideas of how to set up my little studio from him. So, thanks DrBill! I definitely directly benefited from the info you shared. Much appreciated! Just saw this... COOL!!!! You're welcome Calvin. Glad it was of some use....
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Post by rowmat on Dec 18, 2016 0:23:37 GMT -6
We have one Redco 96 point DB25 patchbay and a bunch of ADC patchbays with the Neotek Elite. About to enter a world of ELCO/EDAC termination madness!
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Dec 18, 2016 11:31:35 GMT -6
We have one Redco 96 point DB25 patchbay and a bunch of ADC patchbays with the Neotek Elite. About to enter a world of ELCO/EDAC termination madness! View AttachmentBetter than soldering Dsubs!
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Post by drbill on Dec 18, 2016 11:33:59 GMT -6
I find Mogami very easy to deal with on Elco's due to the braided shield and flexibility. Once you get the feel for it, and how long to cut your leads, it's actually fairly easy.
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Post by rowmat on Dec 18, 2016 12:07:38 GMT -6
We have one Redco 96 point DB25 patchbay and a bunch of ADC patchbays with the Neotek Elite. About to enter a world of ELCO/EDAC termination madness! Better than soldering Dsubs! I've soldered plenty of Dsubs in my time. However most weren't audio related but were a truckload of DB37's used in a mobile satellite telephone system earth station (M-SAT) I worked on in Northern Italy (Lake Como) in the late 1990's while working as a subcontractor at NEC Australia.
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ericn
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Patchbays
Dec 18, 2016 12:58:01 GMT -6
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Post by ericn on Dec 18, 2016 12:58:01 GMT -6
Better than soldering Dsubs! I've soldered plenty of Dsubs in my time. However most weren't audio related but were a truckload of DB37's used in a mobile satellite telephone system earth station (M-SAT) I worked on in Northern Italy (Lake Como) in the late 1990's while working as a subcontractor at NEC Australia. I feel for you on that one, you will have no problems with Elcos if you have the right tools.
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Post by drbill on Dec 18, 2016 13:17:35 GMT -6
Yes. Correct tools are essential - and crimping better than soldering - although I generally lightly touch up the crimps with a dab of solder
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Post by rowmat on Dec 18, 2016 13:37:38 GMT -6
Yes. Correct tools are essential - and crimping better than soldering - although I generally lightly touch up the crimps with a dab of solder I've terminated Elco's before and have the tools. I prefer soldering as I have had to repair quite a few crimped terminations in the past due to breaks or loose wire strands. Normally this should not be an issue if each wire is cut to the correct length, crimped properly and then left alone. However without strain relief at the join too much messing about with the wiring can result in failures. Maybe I've just seen too many badly crimped Elco's? After soldering I always heatshrink over the join for strain relief which is not possible with the crimp terminals due to lack of space as they are much larger in overall diameter than the solder terminals. Also when I first looked at an Elco crimping tool here in Australia about 15 years ago they were like $700 so maybe that accounts for so many bad crimps I have seen... people either using the wrong crimper or pliers?
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Post by drbill on Dec 18, 2016 13:58:25 GMT -6
All the pro installations I've ever seen use crimp pins - including rental companies, huge scoring stages, and million dollar consoles.. I think it allows for some "movement" that soldered connections don't give. Couple that with tiny wires, and you have the potential for breaking wires during the *almost* microscopic and heavily congested pinning process. If you heat shrink all, I think you probably alleviate that issue though. That said, I can't imagine heat shrinking all those pins, and for the crimp pins, I'm not sure you could heat shrink, cause the pin is completely inside the connector - no room for it. If you cut off the insulation to the right length, there's no NEED to heat shrink cause the entire assembly is down inside the connector - the crimper tool is designed to not only crimp the raw wire, but to crimp down the last 1/16th of an inch of insulation. Crimping worked out so much better for me, and purchasing the tool was well worth it - I've probably done 5000 pins over the years. The only benefit of soldering (IMO) is if you don't have the tool. In the US they are around $200 I think. Well worth the price if you've got hundreds of pins to do. GOOD LUCK however you decide to do it.
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Post by rowmat on Dec 18, 2016 14:07:40 GMT -6
All the pro installations I've ever seen use crimp pins - including rental companies, huge scoring stages, and million dollar consoles.. I think it allows for some "movement" that soldered connections don't give. Couple that with tiny wires, and you have the potential for breaking wires during the *almost* microscopic pinning process. If you heat shrink all, I think you probably alleviate that issue though. That said, I can't imagine heat shrinking all those pins, and for the crimp pins, I'm not sure you could heat shrink, cause the pin is completely inside the connector - no room for it. If you cut off the insulation to the right length, there's no NEED to heat shrink cause the entire assembly is down inside the connector. Crimping worked out so much better for me, and purchasing the tool was well worth it - I've probably done 5000 pins over the years. The only benefit of soldering (IMO) is if you don't have the tool. In the US they are around $200 I think. Well worth the price if you've got hundreds of pins to do. GOOD LUCK however you decide to do it. Crimping is no doubt faster and in the scheme of things going to be far more consistent in terms of quality control compared to soldering by some underpaid kid in a factory someplace. I have no issue soldering and heatshrink the terminals on my own gear but I would definitely not do it for a living.
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Post by drbill on Dec 18, 2016 14:13:14 GMT -6
All the pro installations I've ever seen use crimp pins - including rental companies, huge scoring stages, and million dollar consoles.. I think it allows for some "movement" that soldered connections don't give. Couple that with tiny wires, and you have the potential for breaking wires during the *almost* microscopic pinning process. If you heat shrink all, I think you probably alleviate that issue though. That said, I can't imagine heat shrinking all those pins, and for the crimp pins, I'm not sure you could heat shrink, cause the pin is completely inside the connector - no room for it. If you cut off the insulation to the right length, there's no NEED to heat shrink cause the entire assembly is down inside the connector. Crimping worked out so much better for me, and purchasing the tool was well worth it - I've probably done 5000 pins over the years. The only benefit of soldering (IMO) is if you don't have the tool. In the US they are around $200 I think. Well worth the price if you've got hundreds of pins to do. GOOD LUCK however you decide to do it. Crimping is no doubt faster and in the scheme of things going to be far more consistent in terms of quality control compared to soldering by some underpaid kid in a factory someplace. I have no issue soldering and heatshrink the terminals on my own gear but I would definitely not do it for a living. I think most of the crimping I've seen was done by high end tech teams on site in million dollar installations. Just saying. Either way you go I'm sure you'll be fine.
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Post by rowmat on Dec 18, 2016 14:31:42 GMT -6
Once the cable is prepped and stripped I can solder terminate and heatshrink a 26-way multicore (78 terminations) in around 30 minutes.
I insert 8 terminal pins in a row into the open face of a used Elco held in a vice so their solder tabs are poking out.
I then tin and solder 8 pins at a time. Supporting the pins whilst soldering is the trick.
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Post by stormymondays on Dec 18, 2016 16:51:45 GMT -6
Here's another Samson user that will try to live in blissful ignorance for a while. Although I must confess that I've already had a bit of a problem with one channel, and I'm not a heavy patcher at all.
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Post by Ward on Dec 19, 2016 6:39:24 GMT -6
First, the patch bay is quite literally the central point of any studio. Cheaping out on it makes no sense to me if you're using it to connect $5k mics to $2k pre's to $3500 compressors. Are you really going to put a take that's quite possibly not repeatable thru gear that is notoriously intermittent? For those bemoaning $2-3k on bays and wiring, consider that really doing it right is going to cost on the magnitude of 10X's that if you have a console, tape machines, lots of AD/DA on your daw or a good collection of outboard gear. Especially if you do not do the work yourself or use quality parts that last. if you have console, tape, DAW, RADAR and lots of outboard, it can easily go 30K + to do it right. Is it worth it? Personally, I'd rather go without a patch bay than use a substandard one. I've been on the patch bay merry-go-round for 25+ years, and I can tell you a few things. If you don't leave room for expansion, you'll be redoing things. If you solder snakes from PB to gear ends, you'll be redoing things. If you use cheap bays, you'll be redoing things. If you don't build yourself, you'll be spending boocoooup money. (wire is now ridiculously expensive) if you don't think things through with a view for the future, you'll be redoing things. The worst thing in the studio world is having to redo a patch bay system. Do it right the first time, and you'll only complain once. Just like any other piece of gear. If anyone wants me to detail out where I ended up after 5-6+ patch bay builds, I'll be happy to lay it out more in detail, but the bottom line is : well thought out star grounding before starting, proper AC in the studio - THEN, quality TT bays (I use mostly ADC, but all are pretty good) with Female Elco 90 pin (use 72) tails, All racks terminating on the rear with Elco's, All consoles, tape machines, AD/DA etc. terminate on rear of gear / rack with 90 pin Female Elco's, Bunches of Mogami 24pair to Elco M to M 90 pin interconnects of various lengths for quick and easy reconfiguration. Every "row" of the PB (24 points) goes ONLY to one rack, never splits between two places, NEVER, EVER, EVER split ins and outs on one row - always outs on top row, ins on bottom row. If I had not gone this direction with the Elco's (don't like DSubs for their less than stellar connections - prefer the friction fit of Elco's) and flexable reconfig options, I'd STILL be tearing apart and starting over on my patch bay builds. With this setup, never again. Only additive, never taking 2 steps backwards. I can easily reconfigure part or all of my studio, move it, split it into two or do whatever I want with it in a matter of hours instead of the week to two weeks it used to take. AMen!
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Post by Ward on Dec 19, 2016 6:43:44 GMT -6
Folks, you should probably be made aware that a boat load of the gear you'll be connecting to those PBs input and output with DB25s. That alone makes it sensible to just bite the bullet and go for DB25 cabling.
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Patchbays
Dec 20, 2016 5:56:23 GMT -6
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Post by guitfiddler on Dec 20, 2016 5:56:23 GMT -6
Sigh...
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Dec 20, 2016 10:24:20 GMT -6
Folks, you should probably be made aware that a boat load of the gear you'll be connecting to those PBs input and output with DB25s. That alone makes it sensible to just bite the bullet and go for DB25 cabling. As much as I hate hate hate hate hate Dsubs, Ward is right they are mighty convenient, and if they are pretty much plugged and left that way they are almost OK!
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Post by dandeurloo on Dec 23, 2016 19:24:21 GMT -6
TT all the way.
I have installed patchbay's in a number of studios. I have Switchcraft TT's and I am so sick soldering I could scream. I just added a bunch more to them last week. Reminded me how much I hate soldering on pathcbays. Specially after they are installed! PITA!
So, for the days saved in soldering and wire prep, go with the Redco DB25's. They are affordable, work great and flexible. It is a no brainer IMO.
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Post by ericn on Dec 23, 2016 19:56:25 GMT -6
TT all the way. I have installed patchbay's in a number of studios. I have Switchcraft TT's and I am so sick soldering I could scream. I just added a bunch more to them last week. Reminded me how much I hate soldering on pathcbays. Specially after they are installed! PITA! So, for the days saved in soldering and wire prep, go with the Redco DB25's. They are affordable, work great and flexible. It is a no brainer IMO. Yep Best way to solder patchbay is to remove the jacks & RE decree the pair back in when done!
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Post by EmRR on Dec 23, 2016 22:45:03 GMT -6
I got a call to help troubleshoot a patchbay system, turned out the guy wiring up the ELCO had swapped ground and hot in his mind, and inadvertently designed a passive mixer, given it was a floating ground.....
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Post by drsax on Dec 28, 2016 9:37:06 GMT -6
4 Samson S-Patch TRS Patchbays here for the past 7 years and no issues thus far
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Post by Randge on Dec 31, 2016 16:22:09 GMT -6
Consider the Switchcraft 8 channel patchbay then and save a few bucks.
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Patchbays
Jan 2, 2017 8:56:48 GMT -6
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Post by svart on Jan 2, 2017 8:56:48 GMT -6
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Post by Ward on Jan 2, 2017 17:29:50 GMT -6
Might be ok, might not be... untested and no guarantee! Could be good for parts
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