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Post by johneppstein on Dec 15, 2016 14:23:52 GMT -6
Yeah, stay clear of 1/4" TRS or TS patch bays if you can. The cross talk is always a problem. Samson, Furman are the worst. Neutrik are only marginally better. The best thing to do is suck up the expense and just buy the Switchcraft 9625s and needed cabling. Oh god. Don't tell me stuff like that. I'm using 3 Samson bays and built up a bunch of TRS snakes and patch cables. I really like the bays! The switchable configurations on the front are great. Plus, they didn't cost me what, like a thousand dollars a pop for the Switchcrafts?!? That's crazy. I can't stomach the thought of rebuilding my patchbay setup and dropping that kind of cash. Plus, the TT cables are like $10 a piece! I can't really build them for much cheaper. I'd have to drop at least another $500-$600 in patch cables. How do I test this to see if I have that issue? Switchcraft bays are nowhere near that expensive - about $200 each for 96 points new and you can usually pick them up used in the neighborhood of $50-$75. You do have to do a fair bit of soldering, but since the individual jacks are one screw to remove at least you don't have to solder in a crowded bay - and the individual jacks are built like tanks to Telco spec. Get you some Belden 8451/9451 and get to soldering! I also have a few Switchcraft 1/4" bays (surplus Telco stuff, much of it pulled from dumpsters after the '89 quake) that I haven't used since standardizing on TT when I got the board. To me the cheap Samson bays aren't worth the potential tsuris. TT cables aren't cheap but what cable is? Molded plug RCAs?
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Post by jcoutu1 on Dec 15, 2016 14:27:54 GMT -6
Well, I patch like 4 things...so it's not like I have a lot to screw up I have 3 cheap Neutrick and a cheap DBX. I prefer the build of the Neutrick to the DBX. They're cheap and feel cheap, but I'm sure they would be sufficient for your rig. If I were to buy again though, I'd probably buy the S-Patch for the front switching.
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Post by ericn on Dec 15, 2016 14:55:46 GMT -6
Yeah, stay clear of 1/4" TRS or TS patch bays if you can. The cross talk is always a problem. Samson, Furman are the worst. Neutrik are only marginally better. The best thing to do is suck up the expense and just buy the Switchcraft 9625s and needed cabling. Ugh. I SO don't want to spend that kind of money on a patchbay. So you've seen my setup - you think it's something I should even bother with? Talk to MIster patchbay!
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Post by indiehouse on Dec 15, 2016 14:58:18 GMT -6
Oh god. Don't tell me stuff like that. I'm using 3 Samson bays and built up a bunch of TRS snakes and patch cables. I really like the bays! The switchable configurations on the front are great. Plus, they didn't cost me what, like a thousand dollars a pop for the Switchcrafts?!? That's crazy. I can't stomach the thought of rebuilding my patchbay setup and dropping that kind of cash. Plus, the TT cables are like $10 a piece! I can't really build them for much cheaper. I'd have to drop at least another $500-$600 in patch cables. How do I test this to see if I have that issue? Switchcraft bays are nowhere near that expensive - about $200 each for 96 points new and you can usually pick them up used in the neighborhood of $50-$75. You do have to do a fair bit of soldering, but since the individual jacks are one screw to remove at least you don't have to solder in a crowded bay - and the individual jacks are built like tanks to Telco spec. Get you some Belden 8451/9451 and get to soldering! I also have a few Switchcraft 1/4" bays (surplus Telco stuff, much of it pulled from dumpsters after the '89 quake) that I haven't used since standardizing on TT when I got the board. To me the cheap Samson bays aren't worth the potential tsuris. TT cables aren't cheap but what cable is? Molded plug RCAs? I guess I was referring to the Switchcraft 9625's. The switches on the Samson S-Patch's are really useful to me. I use them often. I remember having the Neutrik and DBX bays and having to pull the cards out to switch between normal/half-normal, etc. Total pain. Now, I just flick the switch. That's the appeal of the 9625. I've been rolling my own patch cables out of Mogami/Redco cable and ends. Probably costs me around $4-5 per cable. I get the reliability of the high end bays. If you're plugging/unplugging constantly all day, every day, then that's going to put some wear and tear on the connectors. I can imagine the cheaper bays failing long before the high end stuff in this scenario. But I'm not running a commercial space. Most of my stuff is normalled. And the Samson bays feel a hell of a lot better than my old Neutrik/DBX bays did. Man, those things felt like I was going to snap something every time I plugged. The Samsons are pretty smooth. The only thing I'm worried about now (thanks for that, guys) is the Samson bays degrading the quality of my signals somehow. I was under the impression that a connection was a connection. Now I gotta worry about crosstalk? I didn't even know that was a thing with patch bays until I read this thread.
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Post by wiz on Dec 15, 2016 16:43:52 GMT -6
Yeah, stay clear of 1/4" TRS or TS patch bays if you can. The cross talk is always a problem. Samson, Furman are the worst. Neutrik are only marginally better. The best thing to do is suck up the expense and just buy the Switchcraft 9625s and needed cabling. Wiz sits... hunched shoulders... pouting lip... welling eyes.... turns to 3 samson patch bays in the rack... "Uncle Ward doesn't like you fellas..." 8) cheers Wiz
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Post by ChaseUTB on Dec 15, 2016 17:03:31 GMT -6
My mixes aren't being held back by crosstalk. My mixes are being held back by my ability to hear, identify, and fix problems. My mixes are being held back by my lack of ability to create tangible excitement or vibe. I'm still mixing on $200 monitors so I've got a long way to go until I'm upgrading my patchbays. I thought these two thoughts from your long post should be quoted for you, you can't mix what you can't hear, this goes for room treatment, mix position, monitors, DAC... Many components form what you hear coming out of the monitors. Cheers
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Post by ericn on Dec 15, 2016 18:05:54 GMT -6
Yeah, stay clear of 1/4" TRS or TS patch bays if you can. The cross talk is always a problem. Samson, Furman are the worst. Neutrik are only marginally better. The best thing to do is suck up the expense and just buy the Switchcraft 9625s and needed cabling. Wiz sits... hunched shoulders... pouting lip... welling eyes.... turns to 3 samson patch bays in the rack... "Uncle Ward doesn't like you fellas..." 8) cheers Wiz Or Uncle Eric! They do have their use though, they make great vent panels!😎
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Post by swurveman on Dec 15, 2016 18:08:54 GMT -6
Ugh. I SO don't want to spend that kind of money on a patchbay. So you've seen my setup - you think it's something I should even bother with? I think you have Randge to guide you through what could prove to be a difficult process, as he is also a firm believer and proponent of 9625s as PB of choice! John makes a great point about the old ones with the brass lugs to solder onto... although personally, I find the ones with brass lugs and screws to be ever better... if you can just 'tin' your leads and then connect them to the screw-in brass clips. I might be a bit too hard on 1/4" TRS connector points... they are AWFUL convenient, so there's that to consider. Having the normalling switches on the front is a big advantage. I wish I'd have bought this patchbay.
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Post by ericn on Dec 15, 2016 18:18:39 GMT -6
ALWAYS handle db25 cables with care and support the db25 ends like your life depends on it. Then you will not have any issues whatsoever. I am firmly of the opinion that DB 25s DO NOT BELONG in an audio system. They're computer connectors designed for cheapness and compactness, not mechanical integrity. That being said, my Antelope Orion 32 has more of them than I want to think about - it can be REALLY HARD to avoid them these days... For patchbays, I like Switchcraft. The kind with the individually removable brass jacks you have to solder to. Trying to find something good to say about Dsub's for audio.. Umm density We only have 2 standards for pinout That was hard
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Post by EmRR on Dec 15, 2016 18:59:42 GMT -6
Elco's are certainly nicer.
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Post by ericn on Dec 15, 2016 19:22:56 GMT -6
Elco's are certainly nicer. That was the one thing Alesis got right on the ADAT! The Bad thing about ELCO's is that everybody had their own standard, oh the fun !
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Post by indiehouse on Dec 15, 2016 19:35:09 GMT -6
This thread sucks (for my wallet). I just can't spend $2500 on patchbays and cables. I just can't. I'm going back to being blissfully ignorant about my junky Samson patchbays.
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Post by ericn on Dec 15, 2016 20:03:29 GMT -6
This thread sucks (for my wallet). I just can't spend $2500 on patchbays and cables. I just can't. I'm going back to being blissfully ignorant about my junky Samson patchbays. MR patchbay, go to the website solder your own, MR patchbay!
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Post by Calvin on Dec 15, 2016 20:21:20 GMT -6
This thread sucks (for my wallet). I just can't spend $2500 on patchbays and cables. I just can't. I'm going back to being blissfully ignorant about my junky Samson patchbays. MR patchbay, go to the website solder your own, MR patchbay! I concur completely with this advice.
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Post by schmalzy on Dec 15, 2016 23:16:32 GMT -6
My mixes aren't being held back by crosstalk. My mixes are being held back by my ability to hear, identify, and fix problems. My mixes are being held back by my lack of ability to create tangible excitement or vibe. I'm still mixing on $200 monitors so I've got a long way to go until I'm upgrading my patchbays. I thought these two thoughts from your long post should be quoted for you, you can't mix what you can't hear, this goes for room treatment, mix position, monitors, DAC... Many components form what you hear coming out of the monitors. Cheers My monitors definitely aren't great but I'm at least used to them at this point. My acoustic environment is pretty decent for mixing I think. The room is a bit over-dead but there's plenty of absorption at the first reflection points, all around the room, and in the corners. Most of it is six inches thick of Roxul Saf N Sound. The mix position has 4'X3'X6" at the left and right reflection points. 4'X4'X6" right behind me, GIK 244 bass traps over my head, 1.5'X6'X6" in the four vertical corners and four 6'X4'X3" free-standing panels around the 14'X21'X7.75' room plus three extra 4'X2.5'X3" panels in strategic points around the room. I talked to the guys at GIK and I briefly talked to an independent acoustician and they've told me I'm in the ballpark for my mix position. Mathematically, there's nothing too crazy happening at the mix position and I'm aware of my small problems. My ADDA isn't fantastic but it's workable: Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Octopre MkII Dynamic - I don't think that's what's holding me back at this point. Truthfully, I think my monitors (KRK Rokit 5s) are not doing me any favors and are the weak points in my gear/room. I truly think the big problem at this point is me - I'm just not THERE yet. I'll get there I'm sure. It'll just take time. The next big upgrade are the monitors. I'm considering Zen Pro modded Yamaha HS-8 or other $1,100 and under monitor pairs. Unfortunately, there's not a lot of studio cash floating around right at this point and the bands aren't exactly knocking studio doors open in this town. Like I said, I'm sure I'll get there. It'll just take time and a lot of work (both of which I'm willing to spend)!
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 16, 2016 9:51:50 GMT -6
I think you have Randge to guide you through what could prove to be a difficult process, as he is also a firm believer and proponent of 9625s as PB of choice! John makes a great point about the old ones with the brass lugs to solder onto... although personally, I find the ones with brass lugs and screws to be ever better... if you can just 'tin' your leads and then connect them to the screw-in brass clips. I might be a bit too hard on 1/4" TRS connector points... they are AWFUL convenient, so there's that to consider. Having the normalling switches on the front is a big advantage. I wish I'd have bought this patchbay. Why do you need to change normalling during the process?
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Post by ChaseUTB on Dec 16, 2016 10:55:56 GMT -6
schmalzy I used the yamaha hs8 with no mod and they are more revealing than focal Solo6 for me. It never fails with the focals I mix too bright and compress too much because everything sounds good. The Yamaha are revealing and honest and show you flaws in the audio. Obviously they are not the best and there are way better out there, however I have been pretty impressed using them for a couple of years. I also grew with the monitors, which naturally happens with any set younwork on for awhile. Not to dump on zen pro but I would just get a regular pair of hs8 without the mod. I know the mod removes the "limiter" from the circuit so you prob want a limiter on your monitor output so you don't cook your monitors with a rogue synth patch or crazy loud reference plays while your master plays on accident cuz a client hit a button in the console or monitor control etc you get where I am going. I think it would be easier for you to upgrade without the $1,100 price tag.... some used pairs on zzounds and reverb for $450-$500, however in sure with the holidays you could get a nice deal on a new pair right now!
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Post by swurveman on Dec 16, 2016 13:02:35 GMT -6
Having the normalling switches on the front is a big advantage. I wish I'd have bought this patchbay. Why do you need to change normalling during the process? I was new to patchbays. When I stacked normalized inputs and outputs of compressors and other outboard there was a loop. Thankfully, no damage was done, but I had a lot on the patchbay and had to disconnect db25's to pull it out to change it to non normallled for both i/o of the compressors and other outboard. Would have been nice to have it right on front. Also nice if ergonomically I choose to change things around. Also, at least for my Redco patchbay, sometimes channels don't work. And a switches is just a bit off it can be the culprit. It would be nice to tweak those switches in front instead of having to pull the whole thing out with 16 db25's on the back.
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Post by subspace on Dec 17, 2016 7:37:31 GMT -6
Buy a used console that includes patchbay and wiring. Seriously, I've seen some Peaveys and Tascams go for about the cost of one decent TT bay and they included multiple 96 point bays with full looms. If you have to stop at the landfill on the way home, so be it, but often times the full enchilada is cheaper than a la carte. I used a musician TRS bay with my Mackie and Adat, if it ain't brass it won't last.
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Patchbays
Dec 17, 2016 10:23:40 GMT -6
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Post by bradd on Dec 17, 2016 10:23:40 GMT -6
I've had good luck with my two Redco DB25 TT bays and they cost half as much as the Switchcraft.
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Post by drbill on Dec 17, 2016 11:53:46 GMT -6
First, the patch bay is quite literally the central point of any studio. Cheaping out on it makes no sense to me if you're using it to connect $5k mics to $2k pre's to $3500 compressors. Are you really going to put a take that's quite possibly not repeatable thru gear that is notoriously intermittent?
For those bemoaning $2-3k on bays and wiring, consider that really doing it right is going to cost on the magnitude of 10X's that if you have a console, tape machines, lots of AD/DA on your daw or a good collection of outboard gear. Especially if you do not do the work yourself or use quality parts that last. if you have console, tape, DAW, RADAR and lots of outboard, it can easily go 30K + to do it right.
Is it worth it?
Personally, I'd rather go without a patch bay than use a substandard one.
I've been on the patch bay merry-go-round for 25+ years, and I can tell you a few things. If you don't leave room for expansion, you'll be redoing things. If you solder snakes from PB to gear ends, you'll be redoing things. If you use cheap bays, you'll be redoing things. If you don't build yourself, you'll be spending boocoooup money. (wire is now ridiculously expensive) if you don't think things through with a view for the future, you'll be redoing things.
The worst thing in the studio world is having to redo a patch bay system. Do it right the first time, and you'll only complain once. Just like any other piece of gear. If anyone wants me to detail out where I ended up after 5-6+ patch bay builds, I'll be happy to lay it out more in detail, but the bottom line is : well thought out star grounding before starting, proper AC in the studio - THEN, quality TT bays (I use mostly ADC, but all are pretty good) with Female Elco 90 pin (use 72) tails, All racks terminating on the rear with Elco's, All consoles, tape machines, AD/DA etc. terminate on rear of gear / rack with 90 pin Female Elco's, Bunches of Mogami 24pair to Elco M to M 90 pin interconnects of various lengths for quick and easy reconfiguration. Every "row" of the PB (24 points) goes ONLY to one rack, never splits between two places, NEVER, EVER, EVER split ins and outs on one row - always outs on top row, ins on bottom row. If I had not gone this direction with the Elco's (don't like DSubs for their less than stellar connections - prefer the friction fit of Elco's) and flexable reconfig options, I'd STILL be tearing apart and starting over on my patch bay builds. With this setup, never again. Only additive, never taking 2 steps backwards.
I can easily reconfigure part or all of my studio, move it, split it into two or do whatever I want with it in a matter of hours instead of the week to two weeks it used to take.
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Post by Quint on Dec 17, 2016 14:19:44 GMT -6
First, the patch bay is quite literally the central point of any studio. Cheaping out on it makes no sense to me if you're using it to connect $5k mics to $2k pre's to $3500 compressors. Are you really going to put a take that's quite possibly not repeatable thru gear that is notoriously intermittent? For those bemoaning $2-3k on bays and wiring, consider that really doing it right is going to cost on the magnitude of 10X's that if you have a console, tape machines, lots of AD/DA on your daw or a good collection of outboard gear. Especially if you do not do the work yourself or use quality parts that last. if you have console, tape, DAW, RADAR and lots of outboard, it can easily go 30K + to do it right. Is it worth it? Personally, I'd rather go without a patch bay than use a substandard one. I've been on the patch bay merry-go-round for 25+ years, and I can tell you a few things. If you don't leave room for expansion, you'll be redoing things. If you solder snakes from PB to gear ends, you'll be redoing things. If you use cheap bays, you'll be redoing things. If you don't build yourself, you'll be spending boocoooup money. (wire is now ridiculously expensive) if you don't think things through with a view for the future, you'll be redoing things. The worst thing in the studio world is having to redo a patch bay system. Do it right the first time, and you'll only complain once. Just like any other piece of gear. If anyone wants me to detail out where I ended up after 5-6+ patch bay builds, I'll be happy to lay it out more in detail, but the bottom line is : well thought out star grounding before starting, proper AC in the studio - THEN, quality TT bays (I use mostly ADC, but all are pretty good) with Female Elco 90 pin (use 72) tails, All racks terminating on the rear with Elco's, All consoles, tape machines, AD/DA etc. terminate on rear of gear / rack with 90 pin Female Elco's, Bunches of Mogami 24pair to Elco M to M 90 pin interconnects of various lengths for quick and easy reconfiguration. Every "row" of the PB (24 points) goes ONLY to one rack, never splits between two places, NEVER, EVER, EVER split ins and outs on one row - always outs on top row, ins on bottom row. If I had not gone this direction with the Elco's (don't like DSubs for their less than stellar connections - prefer the friction fit of Elco's) and flexable reconfig options, I'd STILL be tearing apart and starting over on my patch bay builds. With this setup, never again. Only additive, never taking 2 steps backwards. I can easily reconfigure part or all of my studio, move it, split it into two or do whatever I want with it in a matter of hours instead of the week to two weeks it used to take. I 100% concur. Rather than first spend tons on outboard with no way to flexibly, reliably and easily interconnect it all, I invested in and custom made a bunch of Mogami snakes (with ELCOs) and multiple TT patchbays to accommodate everything I owned plus enough extra channels to accommodate several times over that amount for anything I might purchase in the future. Now, as I add new gear, it's so easy to just add it without thinking about much. It cost me a lot but it was worth it.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Dec 17, 2016 15:06:33 GMT -6
First, the patch bay is quite literally the central point of any studio. Cheaping out on it makes no sense to me if you're using it to connect $5k mics to $2k pre's to $3500 compressors. Are you really going to put a take that's quite possibly not repeatable thru gear that is notoriously intermittent? For those bemoaning $2-3k on bays and wiring, consider that really doing it right is going to cost on the magnitude of 10X's that if you have a console, tape machines, lots of AD/DA on your daw or a good collection of outboard gear. Especially if you do not do the work yourself or use quality parts that last. if you have console, tape, DAW, RADAR and lots of outboard, it can easily go 30K + to do it right. Is it worth it? Personally, I'd rather go without a patch bay than use a substandard one. I've been on the patch bay merry-go-round for 25+ years, and I can tell you a few things. If you don't leave room for expansion, you'll be redoing things. If you solder snakes from PB to gear ends, you'll be redoing things. If you use cheap bays, you'll be redoing things. If you don't build yourself, you'll be spending boocoooup money. (wire is now ridiculously expensive) if you don't think things through with a view for the future, you'll be redoing things. The worst thing in the studio world is having to redo a patch bay system. Do it right the first time, and you'll only complain once. Just like any other piece of gear. If anyone wants me to detail out where I ended up after 5-6+ patch bay builds, I'll be happy to lay it out more in detail, but the bottom line is : well thought out star grounding before starting, proper AC in the studio - THEN, quality TT bays (I use mostly ADC, but all are pretty good) with Female Elco 90 pin (use 72) tails, All racks terminating on the rear with Elco's, All consoles, tape machines, AD/DA etc. terminate on rear of gear / rack with 90 pin Female Elco's, Bunches of Mogami 24pair to Elco M to M 90 pin interconnects of various lengths for quick and easy reconfiguration. Every "row" of the PB (24 points) goes ONLY to one rack, never splits between two places, NEVER, EVER, EVER split ins and outs on one row - always outs on top row, ins on bottom row. If I had not gone this direction with the Elco's (don't like DSubs for their less than stellar connections - prefer the friction fit of Elco's) and flexable reconfig options, I'd STILL be tearing apart and starting over on my patch bay builds. With this setup, never again. Only additive, never taking 2 steps backwards. I can easily reconfigure part or all of my studio, move it, split it into two or do whatever I want with it in a matter of hours instead of the week to two weeks it used to take. I agree with all of this except the Elco's. I'd take DL's any day. The zero insertion wear is key for me. Now, if you install an Elco and it stays in one place for the length of the install, then they are cool. But if you're putting them on and off, over time they wear. We have a headphone system that uses Dl's and they are rock solid. I'd hate to gind the Elco's on twice a day for setup and breakdown.
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Post by drbill on Dec 17, 2016 15:43:59 GMT -6
After studio configuration, I'd guess my Elco's aren't disconnected and reconnected more than 20-30X's in their life. That said, I've used rentals that are probably connected a dozen times a week that look THRASHED, and their connections seem just fine. Even worn, they are 100X's more conductive and solid than a new DB25 IMO.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Dec 17, 2016 16:08:08 GMT -6
Yup, not a fan of DB25's either.
I've used some beat Elco's that grinded so bad while screwing them down. Made me cringe haha.
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