ericn
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Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,005
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Patchbays
Jan 2, 2017 18:00:02 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by ericn on Jan 2, 2017 18:00:02 GMT -6
The price is great, but having felt with some of these eBay bays, be ready to have to desolder and redo everything, I have seen some of the strangest wiring in bays on eBay !
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Post by EmRR on Jan 2, 2017 19:05:00 GMT -6
How do you guys feel about a bay being 14-15 year old like this?
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,005
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Post by ericn on Jan 2, 2017 19:30:54 GMT -6
How do you guys feel about a bay being 14-15 year old like this? I have seen 100 year old telco bays that work fine, that said I would pull the sucker completely apart and check for any problems. I also have probably a 100-200 extra jacks here in case I have any problems!
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Post by guitfiddler on Jan 2, 2017 19:47:31 GMT -6
I need a bay...boohoo hoo!!! My new Years resolution is that I would get a Bay! I just can't work it into my budget, ugh...maybe later this year!
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Post by Ward on Jan 2, 2017 23:05:22 GMT -6
I need a bay...boohoo hoo!!! My new Years resolution is that I would get a Bay! I just can't work it into my budget, ugh...maybe later this year! There once was a guitar player who couldn't 'afford' a tuner.
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 3, 2017 0:09:54 GMT -6
Folks, you should probably be made aware that a boat load of the gear you'll be connecting to those PBs input and output with DB25s. That alone makes it sensible to just bite the bullet and go for DB25 cabling. True. However D subs were not designed for and never intended for audio and should be avoided whenver a viable alternative is available. The ONLY reason so many companies are using them now is that they're CHEAP. And cheap is as cheap does. They do allow a savings of around one rack space over alternative connectors and they allow a significantly lower MSRP on the advertised price. What is less obnvious is that that "lower" MSRP is more than compensated for by the increased cost of D sub breakout cables to whatever audio standard is required for the rest of the system. I recently purchased an Antelope Orion 32 Which came with 8 D sub connectors. I would MUCH RATHER have had the interface take up 2 rack spaces ( still half the space of what it replaced) and use TRS jacks - which would have saved me many hundreds of dollars in (unreliable) breakout cables - after my intense grinding on price. If I hadn't ground hard it would have been around another THOUSAND DOLLARS added to the cost, give or take a hundred or two. D subs are false economy. Unfortunately they allow manufacturers to save lots of money on production costs (passed on to the end user) and offer deceptively low retail prices.
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 3, 2017 0:13:48 GMT -6
How do you guys feel about a bay being 14-15 year old like this? Real Switchcraft bays are indestructable. I have a few I pulled out of dumpsters after the Loma Prieta quake. They work just fine, and who knows how long they were in use in Telco systems.
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Post by svart on Jan 3, 2017 8:13:05 GMT -6
LOL, you guys complaining about Dsub for audio? WHY?
I use 2mm generic headers for RF designs and you guys are complaining about DSUBs for audio. LOL.
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 3, 2017 12:20:52 GMT -6
LOL, you guys complaining about Dsub for audio? WHY? I use 2mm generic headers for RF designs and you guys are complaining about DSUBs for audio. LOL. Why? Because they're cheap, unreliable junk. And because, as I explained in my post above, they represent false economy to the end user. Those 2mm generic headers you use - are they internal or external connectors? Internal connectors are not subjected to the same types of strain that external connectors routinely suffer. D subs were desiogned to be used in computer applications where they never move and where they are used on cables that run from one D sub to another similar connector - they were never intended for use in breakout cables which are subjected to considerable more stress and are likely to be disconnected and reconnected on a semi-regular basis.
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Post by svart on Jan 3, 2017 13:19:02 GMT -6
LOL, you guys complaining about Dsub for audio? WHY? I use 2mm generic headers for RF designs and you guys are complaining about DSUBs for audio. LOL. Why? Because they're cheap, unreliable junk. And because, as I explained in my post above, they represent false economy to the end user. Those 2mm generic headers you use - are they internal or external connectors? Internal connectors are not subjected to the same types of strain that external connectors routinely suffer. D subs were desiogned to be used in computer applications where they never move and where they are used on cables that run from one D sub to another similar connector - they were never intended for use in breakout cables which are subjected to considerable more stress and are likely to be disconnected and reconnected on a semi-regular basis. I use the connectors internally, and externally depending on the application. They are much more "flimsy" than DSUBs either way. Working in high tech, I've seen all kinds of connector setups over the years, and one of the longest lasting is DSUB. Why? Because they work. I've seen DSUBs that have been dis/connected hundreds if not thousands of times in network/headend environments, with very little failure or wear. I don't know where you've found your dislike for DSUBs, but I can assure you that the tech world does not share your belief that they are "cheap, unreliable junk".
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Post by EmRR on Jan 3, 2017 14:23:14 GMT -6
The difference is likely in mobile versus non mobile use, and environmental conditions.
Altec and Grass Valley tried D-Sub for amp module connectors in the late 50's and early 60's, both walked that back and went with something else in the next generation. They weren't seen again in audio to my knowledge for several more decades.
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 3, 2017 14:39:18 GMT -6
Why? Because they're cheap, unreliable junk. And because, as I explained in my post above, they represent false economy to the end user. Those 2mm generic headers you use - are they internal or external connectors? Internal connectors are not subjected to the same types of strain that external connectors routinely suffer. D subs were desiogned to be used in computer applications where they never move and where they are used on cables that run from one D sub to another similar connector - they were never intended for use in breakout cables which are subjected to considerable more stress and are likely to be disconnected and reconnected on a semi-regular basis. I use the connectors internally, and externally depending on the application. They are much more "flimsy" than DSUBs either way. Working in high tech, I've seen all kinds of connector setups over the years, and one of the longest lasting is DSUB. Why? Because they work. I've seen DSUBs that have been dis/connected hundreds if not thousands of times in network/headend environments, with very little failure or wear. I don't know where you've found your dislike for DSUBs, but I can assure you that the tech world does not share your belief that they are "cheap, unreliable junk". Well, I suppose that it depends on what part of the tech world you're primarily from. The part generally known as "High tech" these days (mostly derived from the computer industry and offshoots thereof)) has a notably flimsier build standard than traditional pro audio, which derives from the traditional Telco industry and MIL-spec. The muti-pin connectors I grew up with were big circular Amphenols with heavy aluminum shells and woven steel wire "Kellams Grip" strain reliefs. D Subs have virtually no strain relief at all - those that have any use a flimsy clamp of the approximate quality of those found on the cheapest Chinese 1/4" plugs - for cables of considerably greater girth and containing many times the number of conductors. I came up working in the service departments of major music stores and eventually graduated to teching for sound reinforcement companies. Along the way I developed a somewhat contemptuous attitute toward companies that attempted to cut corners by using cheaper computer style connectors in place of proper audio quality connections. I found such (internal) connectors to be the #1 source of mechanical intermittants in audio equipment that employed them. I could tell you lots of stories but for the sake of brevity I'll refrain for now. IMO part of the problem is that today's "high tech" products are not designed, built, or intended to have any real longevity to speak of - the product cycle appears to average around 5-6 years. Good audio gear, OTOH, is designed to last forever with minimal routine maintenance. A lot of "high tech" stuff isn't really designed to be repaired at all - why should it when the company can make more money selling a new one? And digitally based stuff is very rapidly obsoleted - there's no reason to make things durable and every economic incentive not to. I'd bet that the cables those D Subs are attached to are all installed in zip-tied harnesses which in turn are secured pretty much immovably to racks or similar solid equipment that doesn't move. In such installations D-subs are indeed relatively reliable, at least compared to other connectors that are even worse.
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Post by drbill on Jan 3, 2017 17:54:53 GMT -6
Out of RCA's, TS's, TRS's, XLR's, D-Sub's, and Elco's -- DSubs have been the most intermittent and unreliable for me.
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Post by guitfiddler on Jan 3, 2017 19:14:12 GMT -6
Yes but I have to use DB25!!!!!!! My studio demands it! Everything I own is DB25! Is this the new norm for Pro Audio connection?
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 3, 2017 19:43:36 GMT -6
Yes but I have to use DB25!!!!!!! My studio demands it! Everything I own is DB25! Is this the new norm for Pro Audio connection? I dunno. Is Mickey D's the "new norm" for cuisine? Has anybody actually ASKED Norm what he has to say about it?
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Post by guitfiddler on Jan 3, 2017 19:45:20 GMT -6
Maybe he isn't normally Normalled!
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Post by Ward on Jan 3, 2017 19:58:40 GMT -6
Normally, I would be inclined to agree with you but these aren't normal circumstances... not even half normal.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,005
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Post by ericn on Jan 3, 2017 20:25:21 GMT -6
Or is it the new D'norm?
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Post by guitfiddler on Jan 3, 2017 20:47:25 GMT -6
Dammit!!! There is no Normal!!!! Is it NORMAL to spend $1000 on cables? I need to make my own...but DB25 cables just aren't NORMAL cables. Normally I don't get this excited.
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Post by drbill on Jan 3, 2017 21:25:27 GMT -6
Dammit!!! There is no Normal!!!! Is it NORMAL to spend $1000 on cables? No....it's normal to spend about 8-15k. Doesn't everyone?
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,005
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Post by ericn on Jan 3, 2017 22:07:24 GMT -6
Dammit!!! There is no Normal!!!! Is it NORMAL to spend $1000 on cables? No....it's normal to spend about 8-15k. Doesn't everyone? Let's not go down the cabling cost rabbit hole, that is one thing I pray the wife never figures out!
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 3, 2017 22:26:18 GMT -6
Dammit!!! There is no Normal!!!! Is it NORMAL to spend $1000 on cables? No....it's normal to spend about 8-15k. Doesn't everyone? I lucked out - my consdole came with a pile of EDAC cables and a few spare connectors. All I had to buy was pins and tools, and connectors for the other end.....
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,005
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Patchbays
Jan 3, 2017 22:55:06 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by ericn on Jan 3, 2017 22:55:06 GMT -6
No....it's normal to spend about 8-15k. Doesn't everyone? I lucked out - my consdole came with a pile of EDAC cables and a few spare connectors. All I had to buy was pins and tools, and connectors for the other end..... Lucky SOB😎
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Post by svart on Jan 4, 2017 9:28:14 GMT -6
I've had more issues with ELCO's not making good enough contact than DB25's.
I also bought all my snakes 2nd hand from closing studios or on EBAY, same as my patchbays.
I don't think I have more than 500$ in TT patchbays, patch cables, connectors and snake cables in the whole studio. Then again, I did all my own wiring and soldering. If I paid retail it would have been thousands of dollars I'm sure.
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Post by drbill on Jan 4, 2017 11:23:31 GMT -6
Don't know how you guys do it. I've bought tons of ebay Mogami for super cheap, soldered virtually every connector myself and STILL have well over $10k in RAW WIRE and CONNECTORS alone.
The only way elco's don't make far superior connections over DB's is if they have been SEVERELY abused, and or built by inexperienced builders.
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