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Post by guitfiddler on Dec 15, 2016 7:57:55 GMT -6
I am hearing many different ideas for a suitable patch bay for my studio. I had one person tell me that the Samson bays are cheap and they are just as good as the higherend models. I thought I would call Redco and see what they have to offer. Anyone have any advice?
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Post by Ward on Dec 15, 2016 8:23:03 GMT -6
Yeah, stay clear of 1/4" TRS or TS patch bays if you can. The cross talk is always a problem. Samson, Furman are the worst. Neutrik are only marginally better.
The best thing to do is suck up the expense and just buy the Switchcraft 9625s and needed cabling.
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Post by mikec on Dec 15, 2016 8:32:07 GMT -6
A couple months ago I purchased the Switchcraft 9625 and it has been really great. It was expensive, but it seems like every time I try and save some money, like when I recently purchased the Chameleon 880 Rack lunch box, it bites me in the ass. Unlike the Chameleon, I have no regrets with my Switchcaft purchase.
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Post by swurveman on Dec 15, 2016 8:33:11 GMT -6
I have two Redco db25 patchbay. The trouble with DB25 patchbays is you're committed to one cable. So, if one point on the patchbay doesn't work you've got a problem. You either have to move to a new db25 connector for 8 patch points, or are out one patch connection. You'd be surprised how quickly patchbays get filled when you start putting everything on it, and how frustrating it is when you find out one point isn't working.
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Post by Ward on Dec 15, 2016 8:40:45 GMT -6
I have two Redco db25 patchbay. The trouble with DB25 patchbays is you're committed to one cable. So, if one point on the patchbay doesn't work you've got a problem. You either have to move to a new db25 connector for 8 patch points, or are out one patch connection. You'd be surprised how quickly patchbays get filled when you start putting everything on it, and how frustrating it is when you find out one point isn't working. ALWAYS handle db25 cables with care and support the db25 ends like your life depends on it. Then you will not have any issues whatsoever.
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Post by guitfiddler on Dec 15, 2016 8:45:00 GMT -6
I didn't want to hear that, thanks guys.
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Post by swurveman on Dec 15, 2016 8:45:05 GMT -6
I have two Redco db25 patchbay. The trouble with DB25 patchbays is you're committed to one cable. So, if one point on the patchbay doesn't work you've got a problem. You either have to move to a new db25 connector for 8 patch points, or are out one patch connection. You'd be surprised how quickly patchbays get filled when you start putting everything on it, and how frustrating it is when you find out one point isn't working. ALWAYS handle db25 cables with care and support the db25 ends like your life depends on it. Then you will not have any issues whatsoever. I agree with you ward. But when I plug the db25 snake into another source all the channels work.
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Post by nick8801 on Dec 15, 2016 8:47:24 GMT -6
I have 2 neutriks and have zero problems with cross talk. They work totally fine and have been in use for a few years now.
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Post by tasteliketape on Dec 15, 2016 8:47:46 GMT -6
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Post by guitfiddler on Dec 15, 2016 8:51:08 GMT -6
I have always crawled behind my gear because of the expense for boring gear, and not to mention the added room and mess of cables. I have to make a move now...ugh
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Post by indiehouse on Dec 15, 2016 8:52:49 GMT -6
Yeah, stay clear of 1/4" TRS or TS patch bays if you can. The cross talk is always a problem. Samson, Furman are the worst. Neutrik are only marginally better. The best thing to do is suck up the expense and just buy the Switchcraft 9625s and needed cabling. Oh god. Don't tell me stuff like that. I'm using 3 Samson bays and built up a bunch of TRS snakes and patch cables. I really like the bays! The switchable configurations on the front are great. Plus, they didn't cost me what, like a thousand dollars a pop for the Switchcrafts?!? That's crazy. I can't stomach the thought of rebuilding my patchbay setup and dropping that kind of cash. Plus, the TT cables are like $10 a piece! I can't really build them for much cheaper. I'd have to drop at least another $500-$600 in patch cables. How do I test this to see if I have that issue?
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Post by john on Dec 15, 2016 9:23:42 GMT -6
So you could have 8 Samson bays fail before the cost of the $1k patchbay is justified...? I have been using 3 Samsons every day for 4 years and have never had crosstalk, drop outs or bad contact. did I just get lucky or what?
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Post by EmRR on Dec 15, 2016 9:49:02 GMT -6
I keep using the Neutrik bays, knowing I have to replace them every 3-4 years. Use of TRS that I can reconfigure quickly is a big part of that. Any bay with plastic based jack housings will eventually go intermittent due to materials fatigue, and sometimes that fatigue only manifests as contact resistance changes that subtly affect level. As in, your mix is different the next time you do a recall! Your stereo tracks now have a different L/R balance! Etc.
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Post by Ward on Dec 15, 2016 9:59:44 GMT -6
TRS 1/4" bays are great for collecting all your 1/4" direct inputs to preamps and guitar processors.
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 15, 2016 10:14:42 GMT -6
I have two Redco db25 patchbay. The trouble with DB25 patchbays is you're committed to one cable. So, if one point on the patchbay doesn't work you've got a problem. You either have to move to a new db25 connector for 8 patch points, or are out one patch connection. You'd be surprised how quickly patchbays get filled when you start putting everything on it, and how frustrating it is when you find out one point isn't working. ALWAYS handle db25 cables with care and support the db25 ends like your life depends on it. Then you will not have any issues whatsoever. I am firmly of the opinion that DB 25s DO NOT BELONG in an audio system. They're computer connectors designed for cheapness and compactness, not mechanical integrity. That being said, my Antelope Orion 32 has more of them than I want to think about - it can be REALLY HARD to avoid them these days... For patchbays, I like Switchcraft. The kind with the individually removable brass jacks you have to solder to.
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 15, 2016 10:48:34 GMT -6
Yeah, stay clear of 1/4" TRS or TS patch bays if you can. The cross talk is always a problem. Samson, Furman are the worst. Neutrik are only marginally better. The best thing to do is suck up the expense and just buy the Switchcraft 9625s and needed cabling. Ugh. I SO don't want to spend that kind of money on a patchbay. So you've seen my setup - you think it's something I should even bother with?
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Post by schmalzy on Dec 15, 2016 12:03:50 GMT -6
How to test for a crosstalk problems? I'm not sure how to scientifically test for it but if I were testing for crosstalk tonight I'd do it this way: Set up a stereo track with a mono signal of wide frequency relevancy (not a real term, but just something with stuff in the high and low end: pink noise or - for a little more fun - a low-tuned floor tom being struck by a stick with a tambourine sitting on the top head) hard panned one way and silence on the other side. Take that stereo signal and run it out through a stereo pair of outputs with a straight cable to a stereo pair of inputs. Record both channels. In an ideal world with no crosstalk, you'll have sound on one side and absolute silence on the other - just like what you ran out of the outputs. In reality, you might have a little crosstalk. Repeat with the L and R panning switched Compare that to the exact same setup but, instead of straight cable from output to input, run the cables out to the patchbay through consecutive ins/outs on the patchbay back to the same channels on the interface. The difference you see comparing is the difference in crosstalk going through the patchbay vs. going with straight cables. Now for the real thought-provoking (to me) part of the conversation: how much does crosstalk matter? In my opinion, the jury's out. Consoles have crosstalk. Some people claim "it's the glue, man." Some plugin developers feel like it's a characteristic they need to include in their digital models of analog gear. Some developers feel it's so important they even make it an adjustable parameter. Some people want absolutely zero crosstalk for as much width/clarity/etc. as possible. All are valid ideas in my opinion. I've tested my crosstalk and realized that it's low enough that I don't care. So low, that I don't even remember what the numbers were. My mixes aren't being held back by crosstalk. My mixes are being held back by my ability to hear, identify, and fix problems. My mixes are being held back by my lack of ability to create tangible excitement or vibe. I'll fight with eliminating crosstalk when I've got fantastically great sounding but slightly narrow productions. I'm using the DBX PB-48 patchbays. I'd recommend not going with the DBX bays. They're nice because you just flip the channel's pcb board for half-normalled or denormalled. They're shit because DBX is OK leeching cash out of their customers. If you have a channel in your patchbay go bad you have three options: 1) Fix it yourself - Good luck 2) Send it to DBX for a repair - the repair costs $99 plus the owner pays for shipping both ways 3) Buy a new patchbay - $100 plus free shipping I have three or four channels that start out balanced but somewhere on the pcb something goes wrong and the signal comes out unbalanced. What do I do with those channels? Fixing them costs more than buying a new patchbay for a bunch of donor channels. I'm using one bad channel for a sidechain send to a compressor. The other ones are just marked as bad and are wasted. www.misterpatchbay.com if you want to get really serious. I'm still mixing on $200 monitors so I've got a long way to go until I'm upgrading my patchbays.
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Patchbays
Dec 15, 2016 12:10:18 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by rocinante on Dec 15, 2016 12:10:18 GMT -6
I have trs patchbays and I totally regret not going with switchcraft or similar. Crosstalk, guck, bad connections blah blah blah... shit never ends and im far enough down the hole it would be the cost of some nice adda to change. Fwiw at least cables are cheap to switch out but I wish I didn't have to switch to begin with.
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Post by EmRR on Dec 15, 2016 12:11:14 GMT -6
You can replace the crappy plastic jacks on the PCB boards yourself, but it seems a losing proposition in that the first you do is the canary for the whole thing about to go.
Crosstalk, as PRR so eloquently said at groupDIY lately, is a 2 channel 1 console radio broadcast problem, you don't want to hear the hour of bird calls bleeding into the Pentostal minister in the other channel, and vice versa. Run that kind of wildly unrelated mono program through and see if you hear the other.
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Post by Calvin on Dec 15, 2016 12:31:29 GMT -6
I purchased a couple used ADC (great quality) tt patchbays from misterpatchbay (link provided by someone in an earlier post), and I'm extremely happy with them. And the price was quite reasonable (about $150 per). Again, these are top quality bays. Soldered connections, so they took a while to install, but I had complete control of the quality of each connection and I was also able to configure the bays exactly how I wanted them. I can't change configurations by flipping some switches, but then again there are no switches to cause problems. This is the exact route that I would take if I were to do it all over again. Great quality, and can't beat the price. Just need to be willing to break out the soldering iron and spend some time setting everything up.
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Post by Calvin on Dec 15, 2016 12:39:39 GMT -6
By the way, following up on my post above, DrBill provided a bunch of help in setting up my patchbays. And he's not aware of it. I read several old posts of his from another forum where he went into detail on his once-upon-a-time set up, and I got a lot of my ideas of how to set up my little studio from him. So, thanks DrBill! I definitely directly benefited from the info you shared. Much appreciated!
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Post by Ward on Dec 15, 2016 13:32:49 GMT -6
Yeah, stay clear of 1/4" TRS or TS patch bays if you can. The cross talk is always a problem. Samson, Furman are the worst. Neutrik are only marginally better. The best thing to do is suck up the expense and just buy the Switchcraft 9625s and needed cabling. Ugh. I SO don't want to spend that kind of money on a patchbay. So you've seen my setup - you think it's something I should even bother with? I think you have Randge to guide you through what could prove to be a difficult process, as he is also a firm believer and proponent of 9625s as PB of choice! John makes a great point about the old ones with the brass lugs to solder onto... although personally, I find the ones with brass lugs and screws to be ever better... if you can just 'tin' your leads and then connect them to the screw-in brass clips. I might be a bit too hard on 1/4" TRS connector points... they are AWFUL convenient, so there's that to consider.
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Post by EmRR on Dec 15, 2016 13:48:51 GMT -6
Ward, I don't think you can be too hard on them. I use the TRS after careful consideration of my best options, and I still think they are crap. You have to pay attention and know when to toss them.
And to cross-pollinate the other thread....there's an XLR panel for mic connections!
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 15, 2016 14:11:10 GMT -6
Yeah, stay clear of 1/4" TRS or TS patch bays if you can. The cross talk is always a problem. Samson, Furman are the worst. Neutrik are only marginally better. The best thing to do is suck up the expense and just buy the Switchcraft 9625s and needed cabling. Oh god. Don't tell me stuff like that. I'm using 3 Samson bays and built up a bunch of TRS snakes and patch cables. I really like the bays! The switchable configurations on the front are great. Plus, they didn't cost me what, like a thousand dollars a pop for the Switchcrafts?!? That's crazy. I can't stomach the thought of rebuilding my patchbay setup and dropping that kind of cash. Plus, the TT cables are like $10 a piece! I can't really build them for much cheaper. I'd have to drop at least another $500-$600 in patch cables. How do I test this to see if I have that issue?
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 15, 2016 14:23:09 GMT -6
Well, I patch like 4 things...so it's not like I have a lot to screw up
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