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Post by jeremygillespie on Dec 15, 2016 7:50:08 GMT -6
I can't understand why some guys offline bounce. Even if I was completely in the box I wouldn't do this. You have to listen to the mix anyway to proof before sending off to a client right? (Right?! Please tell me you check before sending to a client...)
So what is the harm in listening to each pass as it is played down? At what point is saving time more important than making sure you don't send your client a messed up file because you didn't listen to it?
I factor in at minimum an hour to print mixes when im finished. And if I'm using a tape machine it's 2 hours. Main Print, Instrumental, Vocal up, Vocal Down, and TV Track. If the band wants to spring for a reel of tape - they get all those mixes and another set of them through the ATR102 and they pick later what gets sent to mastering.
Two hours of work to ensure the client gets what they want when they leave and are happy. That beats any offline bounce in my eyes every day of the week.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Dec 15, 2016 8:35:28 GMT -6
I can't understand why some guys offline bounce. Even if I was completely in the box I wouldn't do this. You have to listen to the mix anyway to proof before sending off to a client right? (Right?! Please tell me you check before sending to a client...) So what is the harm in listening to each pass as it is played down? At what point is saving time more important than making sure you don't send your client a messed up file because you didn't listen to it? I factor in at minimum an hour to print mixes when im finished. And if I'm using a tape machine it's 2 hours. Main Print, Instrumental, Vocal up, Vocal Down, and TV Track. If the band wants to spring for a reel of tape - they get all those mixes and another set of them through the ATR102 and they pick later what gets sent to mastering. Two hours of work to ensure the client gets what they want when they leave and are happy. That beats any offline bounce in my eyes every day of the week. I love the offline bounce. I've never had any issues where something wonky happened during the offline bounce. I'll run an OB, run downstairs, check the mix on my bluetooth kitchen radio, then run out to my car and give a listen there before sending off to anyone though. |
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Post by mrholmes on Dec 15, 2016 8:41:01 GMT -6
So in summary, nobody has sold off their hardware and moved ITB. I'm screwed if I think that can work out. Bummer. I'm going to answer this as simply as possible and sum up the thread: This all depends on what you personally define as success and how you feel you need to get there. There is one simple truth many of us don't look at. There are people in the biz they have to get shit down on the street with tight budgets and tight deadlines. They don't even think about working OTB because its not an option to satisfy the clients in time. Everyone who has seen a film mix farm from inside knows they work on large PT rigs with the biggest mouse in the world. There is no such thing as analog gear in their workflow. What is success in a modern world? The circumstances of you work are very often dictated by your clients needs. Do I like working ITB .... I don't prefer it but I want to work on different songs at different times. One is a dance song, one is a blues next one is some documentary music. The slate tools made this decision more easy to me. I am happy that I can get up grab a shower, a coffee and fire up the session of the last night. No need for setting up analog gear. Cheers.... |
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Post by jjinvegas on Dec 15, 2016 8:49:46 GMT -6
I can't understand why some guys offline bounce. Even if I was completely in the box I wouldn't do this. You have to listen to the mix anyway to proof before sending off to a client right? (Right?! Please tell me you check before sending to a client...) So what is the harm in listening to each pass as it is played down? At what point is saving time more important than making sure you don't send your client a messed up file because you didn't listen to it? Not only do I offline bounce, I do it at the highest speed, but I include the project file for that mix in the destination folder. Then I can listen and compare and submit, and when everything is decided, call the appropriate mix up, render it in snail crawl, check it for glitches (not sure why, never had one). That way you can get more mixes in, serve the project with more options and actually eat dinner before midnight, although I never do. One thing that was never mentioned in this thread was the very real impact that ITB mixing has on a person's bottom line. It is a lucky man who can only buy gear that appreciates, once in a while certain pieces retain their value so that depreciation isn't a really bad hit, but even as the book says this Urei flavor of the year is worth X amount of dinero, sometimes getting that cash in hand is not a cinch. I do a little checking now and then, plenty of people here who do very respectable work are quoting prices on their website that just does not justify having their gear list, so basically they are working to have the equipment. That is not tool acquisition, that is just hobbyist-styled gear lust. Just my humble opinon, but there is a difference between pro and aspiring pro, one makes the majority of his income from football, or poker, or audio engineering. |
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Post by jeremygillespie on Dec 15, 2016 9:25:56 GMT -6
Why render at a snail crawl, then take time to listen, when you can listen while you're printing? I just don't understand the extra steps involved.
I also don't get not wanting to have all of your mixes and revisions sitting in the session when you open it up each time.
I'll admit I'm completely stuck in my ways of how I work - its just how I was taught and it was an extremely logical method in my eyes. Time consuming - yes, but it doesn't allow for mistakes. Which is my main goal.
I've seen some people so "fast" that they start changing things before they've listened down to the song even once... I just don't get it.
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Post by Guitar on Dec 15, 2016 9:33:55 GMT -6
I have to print it quick and listen somewhere else. If I'm sitting in front of an active DAW project I'm going to be way too tempted to go in and keep tweaking, maybe even beyond the point of a good mix. You have to find a good time to stop. For me the offline bouncing is me making some attempts to take my hands off and walk away. To commit to a final mix.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Dec 15, 2016 9:44:07 GMT -6
Hey jeremygillespie, I assume your studio is getting hourly rate for mix time, not a project rate? Most smaller guys like me are getting a flat rate for low budget productions, so we need to maximize where we can. Whenever I finish working on something for the day, I'll run an offline bounce and upload to my google drive. Then I have it available on my phone, at the office, wherever to give it some spins. Most of the time, the client won't even hear these, but I want the bounce available to see where I stand. Saving that 2 minutes in the initial offline bounce before heading to my kitchen/car for a spin is beneficial and adds up over different mixes and revisions. |
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Post by jeremygillespie on Dec 15, 2016 9:55:12 GMT -6
Makes total sense. When I'm working at home its based on a project cost. I do use a summing mixer and outboard though so the offline isn't an option for me in either case.
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Post by donr on Dec 15, 2016 10:06:28 GMT -6
Makes total sense. When I'm working at home its based on a project cost. I do use a summing mixer and outboard though so the offline isn't an option for me in either case. Bouncing offline is also an ITB resource issue. I tend to add plugins until I run out of CPU, even with large buffers. It was similar in the hardware era, we'd mix with every piece of outboard we could scrounge hooked up at studios like the NY Record Plant. We wouldn't print the 2trk until we ran out of gear. But offline bounces let the computer do the math without farting, and you can use the oversampling options offline where they'd choke the box realtime. Of course you have to check the mix. Especially to play on systems with hyped lows and highs. |
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Post by jjinvegas on Dec 15, 2016 16:10:08 GMT -6
There are lots of ways to skin a cat, I am very concerned with translation in this fairly annoying climate where people are listening on their phone speakers. You spend hours trying to get something right, only to have decision makers listening on a device that sounds little better than the transistor radios people used to hold to their ears at the ball park, I guess watching the game in person wasn't enough. I really am not an Apple admirer, I think iTunes basically ruined the industry, instead of saving it from little pirates, we gave it all to one big pirate. But I launch all my mixes to iTunes, never actually paid for a download there, but for creating CDs and MP3s for reference away from studio monitors it is the bomb. Sure beats trying to tell yourself that cassette in your car sounded good, when it so obviously didn't......smile...
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Post by wiz on Dec 15, 2016 16:41:46 GMT -6
Makes total sense. When I'm working at home its based on a project cost. I do use a summing mixer and outboard though so the offline isn't an option for me in either case. Bouncing offline is also an ITB resource issue. I tend to add plugins until I run out of CPU, even with large buffers. It was similar in the hardware era, we'd mix with every piece of outboard we could scrounge hooked up at studios like the NY Record Plant. We wouldn't print the 2trk until we ran out of gear. But offline bounces let the computer do the math without farting, and you can use the oversampling options offline where they'd choke the box realtime. Of course you have to check the mix. Especially to play on systems with hyped lows and highs. I love this.. .should be a T shirt. "how do you know when the mix is done?...... when you run out of outboard!" Don circa 2016 8) cheers Wiz |
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Post by Guitar on Dec 15, 2016 17:04:12 GMT -6
That is my favorite way to mix with outboard, also. Haha. Love it!
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Dec 15, 2016 19:31:06 GMT -6
Bouncing offline is also an ITB resource issue. I tend to add plugins until I run out of CPU, even with large buffers. It was similar in the hardware era, we'd mix with every piece of outboard we could scrounge hooked up at studios like the NY Record Plant. We wouldn't print the 2trk until we ran out of gear. But offline bounces let the computer do the math without farting, and you can use the oversampling options offline where they'd choke the box realtime. Of course you have to check the mix. Especially to play on systems with hyped lows and highs. I love this.. .should be a T shirt. "how do you know when the mix is done?...... when you run out of outboard!" Don circa 2016 8) cheers Wiz No it's not done we need more compressors The studio version of a Jaws quote " I think we are gonna need a bigger Rack!" |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2016 9:33:24 GMT -6
" I think we are gonna need a bigger Rack!"  |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2016 9:44:32 GMT -6
I'm breaking out of the box, and can't believe the difference a decent bit of outboard makes.
It may be an exaggerated affect simply because I tested on a mix that I'd totally DI'd and was lucky with my settings - but, I split the channels into mono L&R and run them through the EQPWA then summed them back to stereo.
What a difference, not just tone wise, but also in glueing the mix. I don't have any plug-ins that can do this ( including 2 - 3 pultec "clone" plugs).
I know which way I'm headed - OTB.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Dec 16, 2016 9:46:47 GMT -6
I'm breaking out of the box, and can't believe the difference a decent bit of outboard makes. It may be an exaggerated affect simply because I tested on a mix that I'd totally DI'd and was lucky with my settings - but, I split the channels into mono L&R and run them through the EQPWA then summed them back to stereo. What a difference, not just tone wise, but also in glueing the mix. I don't have any plug-ins that can do this ( including 2 - 3 pultec "clone" plugs). I know which way I'm headed - OTB. Great to know. Wanna buy some gear? hahaha |
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Post by Guitar on Dec 16, 2016 9:50:32 GMT -6
I'm breaking out of the box, and can't believe the difference a decent bit of outboard makes. It may be an exaggerated affect simply because I tested on a mix that I'd totally DI'd and was lucky with my settings - but, I split the channels into mono L&R and run them through the EQPWA then summed them back to stereo. What a difference, not just tone wise, but also in glueing the mix. I don't have any plug-ins that can do this ( including 2 - 3 pultec "clone" plugs). I know which way I'm headed - OTB. Great to know. Wanna buy some gear? hahaha LOL!! |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2016 9:52:04 GMT -6
I've been watching your reverb shop I have the answer to your dilemma - get a bigger place not smaller - |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Dec 16, 2016 10:07:09 GMT -6
I've been watching your reverb shop I have the answer to your dilemma - get a bigger place not smaller - This is it for kids. No more after this. Haha. |
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Post by sozocaps on Dec 16, 2016 11:12:21 GMT -6
Here is the thought of the year for us all....
When they made all these plugins of hardware, don't you think they used A/D-D/A to get the impulse response ?
I say, DO NOT be afraid to use A/D-D/A to go through your own hardware with your own complex unique impulse from your tracked audio....!!!!
I use hardware in tracking and mix with inserts and hardware to produce and create sounds, plugs for final mixing which if you track correctly there is almost no mixing needed...
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Post by drbill on Dec 16, 2016 15:33:44 GMT -6
I say, DO NOT be afraid to use A/D-D/A to go through your own hardware Who's afraid? I'm not here. I haven't been afraid for almost a decade. Nothing new on this coast. I might go in and out 4+ times on ONE sound alone. Then a couple more for the 2 bus, and maybe 3+ more for mastering. I can't tell any appreciable difference. And if there is one, it's by FAAAAAR offset by the beauty of the analog tone I'm getting after going in and out. Don't fear the reaper!! (reaper = AD/DA cycles.....  ) |
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Post by Guitar on Dec 16, 2016 16:04:07 GMT -6
I'm slightly afraid of the gain staging, and very small amount of extra printing time. For that reason, I appreciate the encouragement. |
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Post by illacov on Dec 16, 2016 16:39:12 GMT -6
I don't have alot of active VIs at mixdown time, but on my Reaper system I barely crack 30% anymore on full mixes.
Full band. 3 reverbs, loads of automation, using a 7200 rpm audio drive, with a SSD OS and program drive. 8 core AMD, 8 GB of ram. This is technically an obsolete system of several generations, so my point to show specs is to illustrate how non special my computer is.
I do alot of printing during the birth of a record but I haven't experienced the dreaded burp gurgle on playback thing since I left Cubase.
I do online bounce because I print my mix with outboard (2 buss compressor into Mic pre with eq into Zulu).
I usually hit render and take a short walk outside the studio. No glitches from rendering.
Thanks
-L.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Dec 16, 2016 18:17:10 GMT -6
I say, DO NOT be afraid to use A/D-D/A to go through your own hardware Who's afraid? I'm not here. I haven't been afraid for almost a decade. Nothing new on this coast. I might go in and out 4+ times on ONE sound alone. Then a couple more for the 2 bus, and maybe 3+ more for mastering. I can't tell any appreciable difference. And if there is one, it's by FAAAAAR offset by the beauty of the analog tone I'm getting after going in and out. Don't fear the reaper!! (reaper = AD/DA cycles..... ) Damnit Don doesn't get paid for bad quotes! |
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Post by sozocaps on Dec 17, 2016 0:47:33 GMT -6
Just for giggles before my session tonight I did a few repairs (bad tube in my Warm LA-2A) and a few A/D D/A tests. I think my A/D D/A trip sounds better LOL.... I think my D/A tightens up the low end a very little bit blind testing I got it right most of the time.. A tight bottom is ALWAYS a good thing for me (I do hard rock to Metal mostly) but even for all genre's I always like a tight bottom end... because the analog fattens things up some anyway...
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