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Post by jeromemason on Nov 27, 2016 15:20:39 GMT -6
I've found that if you're going to mix ITB you've got to use much less and depend on the source material to be really good. Back in the days I was on the 6000E with loads of outboard I could do a lot to make things work, but now, I really depend on whoever is cutting the tracks to really get it right or the mix is going to be what the mix is.
If you start slapping tons of plugins on a electric guitar track to try and make it have definition or to take that gawd awful 3k-4k issue most bad recordings of them have then you're going to do more damage than good. You end up getting a really flat and boring sound. Same with the drums, although triggering and great samples make this way less an issue than it used to be.
If you hand me a track that has been cut really good I can easily make it sound great and my job is to create a good balance and the right dynamic, suddenly who cares if I'm on a console and have outboard, I'm using what I have and I'm not focused on fixing or adding, just kicking the mixes ass and having fun.
That's my experience.
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 27, 2016 18:55:40 GMT -6
To come back to the question. I did hear great mixes in both domains and I think it proofs you can do it ITB. Downside is the fun factor... OTB is more intuitive to me. BTW was not @johnkenn before the D Box fully ITB? It sounded good to me all the time, with and without the D box. wiz is mixing ITB as far as I know. I like his work too. |
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Post by guitfiddler on Nov 27, 2016 20:04:12 GMT -6
Im still on the fence and I'm trying to like ITB, I really am, but every time I hear my outboard, it just keeps me out.
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Post by illacov on Nov 28, 2016 18:00:38 GMT -6
Hybrid or fully OTB with Zulu on the console master buss. Loads of printing during post. Very little actual mixing done ITB, the tracks and the prints do all the work. You totally hear the gear working. Ain't a plugin compressor I've met yet that makes me as happy as an ADL1000/LA2A on a U87/1073 chain. Not even close. Its amazing how I can use all sorts of parallel eqs and Pultec plugins chained on a mix ITB and then if I switch to my console 3 band EQ with 1db @ 16k, 1db @ 3k and 1db @ 60hz, its like an ENTIRELY different planet. WTF? Literally its like I need 3db of boost ITB to equate to 1db of boost OTB.  Doesn't matter regarding the Q shape, its just bizarro how you can have the best phase equalizer in the world on your mix or emulation etc and it just susses out to be doing next to nothing besides screwing with your phase response. Its just a waste of time. Nothing elitist or snobbish about it. I just want my sounds dammit!! LOL Thanks -L. |
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Post by guitfiddler on Nov 28, 2016 18:03:23 GMT -6
Hybrid or fully OTB with Zulu on the console master buss. Loads of printing during post. Very little actual mixing done ITB, the tracks and the prints do all the work. You totally hear the gear working. Ain't a plugin compressor I've met yet that makes me as happy as an ADL1000/LA2A on a U87/1073 chain. Not even close. Its amazing how I can use all sorts of parallel eqs and Pultec plugins chained on a mix ITB and then if I switch to my console 3 band EQ with 1db @ 16k, 1db @ 3k and 1db @ 60hz, its like an ENTIRELY different planet. WTF? Literally its like I need 3db of boost ITB to equate to 1db of boost OTB. Doesn't matter regarding the Q shape, its just bizarro how you can have the best phase equalizer in the world on your mix or emulation etc and it just susses out to be doing next to nothing besides screwing with your phase response. Its just a waste of time. Nothing elitist or snobbish about it. I just want my sounds dammit!! LOL Thanks -L. Thank you! You just saved me money! |
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 28, 2016 18:57:44 GMT -6
Im still on the fence and I'm trying to like ITB, I really am, but every time I hear my outboard, it just keeps me out. Its not that hard buy a 2 month subscribtion (24$ a month) of the slate everything bundle and see how far you get mixing ITB. I just can say that VCC VCB an VTM do sound fantastic... they sound like real gear.... in the meantime I am sure its not the gear its the workflow that keeps us away from great mixes in the box. Nothing feels more unnatural than clicking around on a screen. And yes, its true sometimes with some plug ins you have to pull in more dbs to get the same result.... All the blind AB tests of the last years special with the VCC on GS tell us one story. No one was able to name the ITB mixes... What keeps you away from using your hardware in tracking and mixing all ITB.... if I see all your posts of the last days.... its you its not the plug in.... just try the latest slate stuff its just great sounding tools... I repeat myself if I cant make it happen with great sounding plug ins in this case its me, its not the plug ins. Its the workflow which keeps me away from listening..... you have to learn a new workflow. I bet you can mix as good as with hardware if you have found your flow ITB. my .2 cents |
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Post by popmann on Nov 28, 2016 19:05:46 GMT -6
Do I count since I grew up and was trained on analog....stayed analog (other than the 2 track DAT and reverbs) at home through the 90s....then literally cut to the EXTREME of "ITB"--the entire studio was sold and taded for a Roland VS1680--so, from mic preamp to authored CD literally in "one box".
Which really brings up the problem I have with the terminology. It means different things to different people. I have ZERO issues with digital summing....but, DO with SOFTWARE summing. I think analog compressors and EQ do something unique when they happen prior to conversion that you'll never really get otherwise, I think 96khz tracking sounds better than tape, but don't think 48 does. Now, people consider "the box" to be a computer with potentially a collection of the third party DSP, which is a different beast than a single box made by a signle manufacturer--ANY manufacturer.
My short advice is that if you want the easiest/best sounding small footprint set up for mixing on your Macbook, it's going to be a thunderbolt 16 output DAC with an analog summing mixer--if you want to get spendy, add a nice two bus worthy compressor for it's output--I'd go API 2500 personally--but, also don't think it makes that much difference. It's just that it's a routing PIA to sum externally yet stereo compress the two. Use the advantage of mixing in software I've said before--beginning of the mix (or during tracking) get the levels solid at calibrated nominal--never let DSP increase this perception. You should be able to hit bypass on the whole channel, and it (mostly) maintains the same mix balance. Do it with your analog hardware via the hardware plug in return plug, which you could never really do with the hardware on an analog desk. It will make you do ONLY what's needed and nothing more.
Mono channels =lead vocal, kick, bass....the other depends on context and whether you buy a summing unit with pan capabilities.
Work at 88.2 or 96khz. It makes WAY more difference when you're doing everything digitally. It's a difference that follows all the way down to mp3.
Once you're tracking at 96khz, get it right going in. If certain basses require envelope manipulation....or a Wurli DI needs tube clipping and low end rolled out....to be part of the intended sound--DO IT. Double rate digital will hand it right back to you. So, when all you're doing is contextual titghtening and gentle tilt'y EQ and dialing in specifics of the reverb for context, mixing becomes easier than when you're ALSO making things sound like you want them to on a fundamental level.
Apply saturation/clipping/lookahead limiting before most anything else. Meaning if you need a guitar track to have a little more sizzle--reach for the Trident VCC channel before you reach for an EQ. Snare to "donky"? Don't reach for a compressor--grab a squarwave clipper like a tape sim to lose the donk--THEN decide if you also want to add the smack a compressor will....etc. Even taking a track and analyzing it to see you can apply a L2 and gain 6db by only clipping a handful of time during the tune? Do it--but set the output to NOT "gain" 6db. Just remove those transients with the L2. You can bypass it and unless it's during one of those handful of times in the tune, you shouldn't hear a level change.
So, double rate. 16 channel analog summing (buy the IO first and then get the pimps to get you several units to audition in terms of the actual summing unit). Get it right as you can going in. ZERO SUM gain staging.
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Post by Guitar on Nov 28, 2016 19:36:24 GMT -6
RIP "Paddy Crunden" :-P wow drbill, that is one of the best ITB/vs/OTB posts I have ever read. When you said 10-15 hardware pieces, I looked around, and I only have about 8 or 9. I guess I need to step it up next year. I also agree with jeromemason since I mix most of the time 100% ITB that it is absolutely imperative to nail the sounds during tracking, since there's not much else to be done afterwards. Which I suppose is a good idea in general. I will give a strong vote for ITB though, since I've had good success with it. Hybrid is surely more fun, though, when I've done that. For me, it's a tossup. I move back and forth, but I have no definitive conclustion. Some very specific plugins I have give me a hardware vibe. Sometimes running the analog chains seems like a hassle. Sometimes running a mix on the Mackies is better than anything I tried ITB. I'll have to flip a coin on this for now. |
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Post by guitfiddler on Nov 28, 2016 19:37:11 GMT -6
I get it and I know the tricks, it's not that I can't mix in the box. My console gives me options and I'm just not convinced, I like patch bays and cables, I like the mess. I listened to some stuff the other day and I just like the old setup better, looks cooler too. It looks like a real studio. It feels and smells like one too, after a bowl of ham and bean soup! Lol. I sold my Apollo and went back to my Apogee 16X with Thunderbridge, and by golly, there it is! The sound I lost. Thanks guys for the encouragement, I just have been taking too many good deals in over this trying and stressful weekend of great deals. Now, I have no money what so ever...lol. Love the Analog!!! Long Live the Analog!!! Live by the DAW, Die by the DAW! Just having some fun, have a good end to Cyber Monday guys! They can keep their plugins! I did't even take the Free Waves Super-tap delay! Just having some fun...Schucks guys, I really want to be in the box like you all...sigh.
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Post by veggieryan on Nov 28, 2016 23:35:36 GMT -6
Oh good, another person with my experience... I may not be crazy! |
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Post by rocinante on Nov 28, 2016 23:41:08 GMT -6
Dr. Bill summed it for me in one fell swoop.
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Post by veggieryan on Nov 29, 2016 2:09:13 GMT -6
Dr. Bill summed it for me in one fell swoop. Yup. Does anyone know if there is a list of his arsenal besides the Silver Bullets and CAPI EQ's? |
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Post by guitfiddler on Nov 29, 2016 5:08:29 GMT -6
Dr. Bill summed it for me in one fell swoop. Yup. Does anyone know if there is a list of his arsenal besides the Silver Bullets and CAPI EQ's? Dr. Bill posted some pics of his room somewhere on here. A very nice space! |
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Post by rocinante on Nov 29, 2016 19:59:10 GMT -6
Yeah well worth a look too. I remember being jealous of the natural light and large Windows. I probably have or had much of the same gear; in my fucking windowless room.
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Post by rocinante on Nov 29, 2016 20:02:46 GMT -6
Im actually saving up for an ad16x as my next big purchase.
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 30, 2016 8:09:56 GMT -6
Can't recommend Softube Console 1 enough, specially at the current price. It's got the sonics and it's got the workflow. I think I can work at least 10 times faster than using VMR. Not that speed is the goal, mind you. Gonna have to read about it...for some reason, I just haven't been that interested in it. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 30, 2016 8:17:21 GMT -6
Now, if the budget doesn't cut it (60% of the time), I'm mixing at home. 8 Channels of my Apollo 16 > D-Box > EQ > Comp > and a pair of vp-28's on the bus into a Lavry Blue. So by this, your summing 4 stems to the dbox, into a buss eq/Compressor, then capturing. Not running through any hardware for individual channels and stuff. What genre are you mainly working with? Also, I assume the stuff that you're mixing was tracked at the BS using a bunch of hardware and nice stuff? You've probably got a lot if the sound on the way in "going to tape" right? That's basically what I'm doing. I mix listening with VMR Neve (also on all channels) and MuseQ master EQ on the 2 bus. Once I get the mix done, I print a 2 track mix out through VP28L pair and sometimes I now go ahead and use the SA4000. I then apply mastering to that track and pass through the VP28L pair a second time. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 30, 2016 12:26:43 GMT -6
😅😂😅😂😅  wow. really? I thought it was only in the uk people hated others success. I came here to try and learn off the big guys not "Slate" them (gedditt?) bollocks to this...... Damn...overreact much? |
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Post by drbill on Nov 30, 2016 22:23:29 GMT -6
I prefer to see the situation as :
"Passion more than Compromise...."
But I couldn't find a cute graphic to say that....
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Post by jeremygillespie on Nov 30, 2016 22:49:38 GMT -6
So by this, your summing 4 stems to the dbox, into a buss eq/Compressor, then capturing. Not running through any hardware for individual channels and stuff. What genre are you mainly working with? Also, I assume the stuff that you're mixing was tracked at the BS using a bunch of hardware and nice stuff? You've probably got a lot if the sound on the way in "going to tape" right? That's basically what I'm doing. I mix listening with VMR Neve (also on all channels) and MuseQ master EQ on the 2 bus. Once I get the mix done, I print a 2 track mix out through VP28L pair and sometimes I now go ahead and use the SA4000. I then apply mastering to that track and pass through the VP28L pair a second time. So are you not mixing into your bus comp and eq? As in, you do your mix, then put those pieces on and print through them? |
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Post by mrholmes on Dec 1, 2016 4:32:08 GMT -6
wow. really? I thought it was only in the uk people hated others success. I came here to try and learn off the big guys not "Slate" them (gedditt?) bollocks to this...... Damn...overreact much? Some people just don't have fun.... it a short LIVE .... I need a few laughs a day I can also laugh about myself too.... |
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 1, 2016 7:35:37 GMT -6
That's basically what I'm doing. I mix listening with VMR Neve (also on all channels) and MuseQ master EQ on the 2 bus. Once I get the mix done, I print a 2 track mix out through VP28L pair and sometimes I now go ahead and use the SA4000. I then apply mastering to that track and pass through the VP28L pair a second time. So are you not mixing into your bus comp and eq? As in, you do your mix, then put those pieces on and print through them? I only have the single LC25...and I sometimes choose the Manley Vari-Mu plug over the Stam for the Mid Side capabilities |
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Post by svart on Dec 1, 2016 7:56:55 GMT -6
I've expressed my position here before, I'll give the short version now.
I started with cheap hardware, got better hardware but still didn't feel like I was getting high-end results, dropped into software more heavily once plugins started becoming more available, then eventually came back to hardware.
Now I'm mostly hardware but still capturing digitally. I mostly use the software stuff for routing for monitoring/headphone mixes.
I just like turning knobs and pushing faders. It's probably more of an ergonomics thing for me. I try to work fast and get things together before my ears get numb.
However, there is still something that hardware can do that I use all the time.. Being able to handle being abused and pushed to limits that software cannot do.
I'm at the point where I push and pull pieces of the audio until I like it, without worry of doing things "correctly". I don't worry about calibrations of gear, nor do I can what dBu vs dBFS something is.
I push and tweak until I love it, or hate it, something that I can't do quickly or easily in software.
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Post by jimwilliams on Dec 1, 2016 10:46:05 GMT -6
"There ain't nuthin like the real thing, baby".
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rigo
Full Member
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Post by rigo on Dec 1, 2016 12:46:38 GMT -6
A timely thread for me.
I have recently had experiences that have made me reconsider my attitude about this whole question. I spent ten or fifteen years working in good to great analog studios when there was no such thing as ITB. Like many of us I developed a real love and appreciation for all the classic hardware and its ability to give you "that sound". Working with top notch engineers who really knew the ways to get the great sounds out of EQs, compressors, reverbs, etc., was one of the great joys of being in the studio.
I have now spent more than a decade only working ITB. This was originally a simple matter of economics--I put together my own digital studio and began recording my own albums. Having received a valuable apprenticeship in my years of working with experienced engineers I took the challenges of trying to get great sounds on my own, in my own house/studio very seriously, ultimately buying some fine outboard gear for tracking but doing all my mixing ITB. I have made about ten albums over the past twelve years this way and have felt that my recordings, particularly the more recent ones, hold up well out in the world. They get airplay, they are sometimes well reviewed, people like them and buy them and dance to them. Not millions of people, but nevertheless. And hardly anyone ever says that they sound like crap--why doesn't this guy find a good studio/engineer to work with...?
So I recently decided to go back into a major Bay Area studio with my band, and to track the new CD in a big room, with a well-known and well-respected engineer with numerous gold and platinum records on his wall. Wow! What a blast! Recording through a classic console with tons of great outboard gear--all the best mics, compressors, etc.--was an ear-opening experience. The tracks sounded fabulous--huge, smooth, it was a perfect reminder of the joys of hardware. In addition, it was nice to have the whole band playing together in the studio rather than my usual strategy of building songs from the drum and bass tracks up, overdubbing everything else. We managed to get a live, spontaneous feel in most of the songs that translated well to "tape".
In any case, the experience made me consider the possibility of finishing this recording OTB, doing the overdubbing and editing and mixing in this studio. It would be a significant expense but seemed to promise very satisfying results.
So this past week I went into this engineer's "other studio" to do some editing of the basic tracks, assembling our final takes in preparation for overdubbing my vocals and fiddle tracks. This was definitely a smaller ITB studio, but that was fine for this stage of the process. However, as we were working on the tracks the engineer kept tweaking what we were hearing--with EQ, compression, different effects, etc.--just to give us some ideas of what more finished tracks might sound like. He had just added some more of the new UA plugins to his arsenal and wanted to try them out. I was pretty skeptical (even though we were just messing around during the editing process) but I have to admit that the quality of the plugins and the amazing simulation of classic hardware blew me away. The 1176 plugin sounded great! Whether or not it is a perfect recreation of some ideal hardware 1176 was kind of beside the point. It was giving us the sound we wanted in the moment.
And then, just for fun, we added the UA AMS Plate reverb plugin to my fiddle track in an instrumental ballad and I think both our jaws hit the floor at the same time (I wish we'd had a live mic to record THAT sound...). It was absolutely, shockingly beautiful--a gorgeous reminder of one of my old favorite pieces of gear, one you usually only found in first class studios but one that could really add beauty and class to your recordings. The UA recreation really killed me. The engineer was equally impressed, he kept calling it "God's reverb".
So now where am I? The quality of the software effects and processors has clearly now gotten shockingly good. Even though I know that I would love to finish the album in the big studio with all that classic hardware, I think I'm going to upgrade some of my plugins and see how close I can get to those sounds back in my own little ITB studio. I can see the possibility that I will mix at least a handful of songs in the big studio, but I can also see the possibility that I might do some mixing in the engineer's smaller ITB studio, if for no other reason than to use that darn AMS Plate on my violin. What a beautiful sound!
So, after this long rambling tale, I guess I'm back where I started--back In The Box (as Senor Wences would have said). But remembering fondly the analog days and being tremendously impressed by the progress that has been made with software.
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Doesn't matter regarding the Q shape, its just bizarro how you can have the best phase equalizer in the world on your mix or emulation etc and it just susses out to be doing next to nothing besides screwing with your phase response. Its just a waste of time. Nothing elitist or snobbish about it. I just want my sounds dammit!!
