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Post by Bob Olhsson on Nov 21, 2014 16:12:07 GMT -6
The performance of those modified APIs was why a Neve was considered mushy sounding turn off to me and most of my friends.
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 21, 2014 16:26:07 GMT -6
Punchy... You'll see  |
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Post by jsteiger on Nov 22, 2014 9:23:28 GMT -6
and yet oddly buttery at the same time.....  |
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Post by unit7 on Nov 28, 2014 12:06:51 GMT -6
Finally had some time to test. Compared the Heider with VP28+GAR 2520/1731, VP28+SL red dots, AMS/Neve 1084, Don Classics NV73, DAV BG501 and Hairball Gold Element. I like acoustic guitar for a first impression test, though of course lacking the bottom end of a bass or kick. But anyhow I put a small speaker in front of the mic (Andreas Grosser U47), trimmed the pres to within 0.5 dB and then recorded a few passes of myself strumming an open E major chord. I'm such a lousy guitar player (my fingers are still hurting) that I won't post any files this time. The ones I liked best was Neve, Heider and NV73 followed by VP28+red dots and DAV. HB Gold had too much top end on acoustic for my taste. In this company I liked the VP28+GARs the least. On acoustic it sounded a bit plain, also a bit dirtier so perhaps good for some drums?.. I was VERY surprised that changing op amps did so much! The VP28 got much closer to the Heider when I put the red dots in. Sounded great. The things I've heard about the DAV seems right. Very natural, balanced without sounding boring or sterile at all. Impressing. For clean, today at least I prefer it over the Hairball. But I sure would like to compare to Horvitz new 23N...and Earthworks, and Ingram, and RTZ. Oh well.. Lately I've been a bit sceptical about the AMS/Neves, especially considering the price. But I think it's clear that even these reissues sound beautiful and have at least some of the magic of the originals. And the NV73 was super close imo, so that's a really cool thing. Speaking of magic, there's something very special with the Heider. Sounds just great. Not worlds apart from the Neve, but still a bit different and just as beautiful in it's own way. Buttery - yes. Punchy - yes Look forward to try drums too, and acoustic again with a good player/instrument. But it looks like I have to get some red dot op amps for my VP28s, more NV73 kits and more Heiders! |
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Post by unit7 on Nov 29, 2014 5:11:50 GMT -6
jsteiger Slightly off topic, but I'm wondering if op amps have as much influence on the tone in eqs as in preamps? I'll try the Red dots in my eqs shortly and will of course build my opinion, but I'm just interested in the theory. I'm thinking that since preamps are doing the thing they do, bringing mic levels up to line levels, that everything in that circuit would influence the tone more than an eq (in soft bypass mode). Any thoughts/input on that subject?
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Post by jsteiger on Nov 29, 2014 9:35:03 GMT -6
Yes I agree. They are more influential in preamps but still impart color in an EQ or line module.
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Post by unit7 on Dec 4, 2014 8:03:09 GMT -6
Sorry, still a bit OT, but a brief follow up on different op amps in API style eqs. I have a few of Horvitz's TB550As (sorry, couldn't motivate myself to open the chassis on my LC53s...) so I copied soundfiles of acoustic and snare to three different channels in PT and inserted a TB550A with different DOAs on each channel (2xGAR2520, 2xGAR1731 and 2XRed dots). Tried soft bypass, light and extreme eq settings and to my 50yr old ears the difference was subliminal. I believe the Red dots were a tiny bit clearer and cleaner and preserved transients a tiny bit better, but because I have these as a more colored alternative to my console and the difference was so tiny, I'll keep all the GAR2520s in my eq 500 rack. A bit of a relief actually as otherwise I would have needed to replace 22 of them |
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Post by tonycamphd on Dec 4, 2014 12:31:27 GMT -6
I've messed with this extensively, i find the diffs are subtle but real, they become more clear over time as you mess about, i've pretty much settled on the red dot input side/1731 output side on all of my capi gear, i still have some Gar 2520's on a few and i'm not in a big rush to buy more red dots to replace them, though eventually i will.
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Post by unit7 on Dec 5, 2014 7:17:27 GMT -6
Premiere today! Not close to rock, pop or country. And not the music the whole world will hear, but anyway.. Solo flute overdub on a version of That Black Old Magic (Arlen/Mercer 1942). Flea249->Heider=Sweet! Edit: Here's a sample! dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1141125/Heider_Flute.mp3I guess everyone who have seen the hilarious flute solo scene by Will Ferell will enjoy  |
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Post by unit7 on Dec 5, 2014 12:11:28 GMT -6
One more thing. Me like the VU meter.
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Post by jsteiger on Dec 5, 2014 12:20:19 GMT -6
One more thing. Me like the VU meter. Yeah, me too! |
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Post by tonycamphd on Dec 5, 2014 14:28:22 GMT -6
Premiere today! Not close to rock, pop or country. And not the music the whole world will hear, but anyway.. Solo flute overdub on a version of That Black Old Magic (Arlen/Mercer 1942). Flea249->Heider=Sweet! Edit: Here's a sample! dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1141125/Heider_Flute.mp3I guess everyone who have seen the hilarious flute solo scene by Will Ferell will enjoy sounds great P! how'd you go about this tracking/mix session(spare no detail please 8) |
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Post by unit7 on Dec 5, 2014 15:17:56 GMT -6
Premiere today! Not close to rock, pop or country. And not the music the whole world will hear, but anyway.. Solo flute overdub on a version of That Black Old Magic (Arlen/Mercer 1942). Flea249->Heider=Sweet! Edit: Here's a sample! dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1141125/Heider_Flute.mp3I guess everyone who have seen the hilarious flute solo scene by Will Ferell will enjoy sounds great P! how'd you go about this tracking/mix session(spare no detail please 8) Thanks Tony! Hmm, well to stay on topic.. My secret is that I retrack everything I get thru the Heider two times, even the effects returns. The first time with moderate gain settings just to get the buttery smooth euphoric 3D mojo and the second time with a bit more drive for that special 70s colored saturation/compression. When mixing I put the Heider on the 2 bus. And finally I bring the Heider to my mastering guy. He knows that if he refuse to use them I'll hire another guy next time. Easy peasy. As long as you have the Heider. Btw, as I only have one unit atm everything I do is mono, until I get a second one. |
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Post by tonycamphd on Dec 5, 2014 15:31:54 GMT -6
sounds great P! how'd you go about this tracking/mix session(spare no detail please 8) Thanks Tony! Hmm, well to stay on topic.. My secret is that I retrack everything I get thru the Heider two times, even the effects returns. The first time with moderate gain settings just to get the buttery smooth euphoric 3D mojo and the second time with a bit more drive for that special 70s colored saturation/compression. When mixing I put the Heider on the 2 bus. And finally I bring the Heider to my mastering guy. He knows that if he refuse to use them I'll hire another guy next time. Easy peasy. As long as you have the Heider. Btw, as I only have one unit atm everything I do is mono, until I get a second one. smart ass... 8) |
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Post by unit7 on Dec 5, 2014 16:10:53 GMT -6
Thanks Tony! Hmm, well to stay on topic.. My secret is that I retrack everything I get thru the Heider two times, even the effects returns. The first time with moderate gain settings just to get the buttery smooth euphoric 3D mojo and the second time with a bit more drive for that special 70s colored saturation/compression. When mixing I put the Heider on the 2 bus. And finally I bring the Heider to my mastering guy. He knows that if he refuse to use them I'll hire another guy next time. Easy peasy. As long as you have the Heider. Btw, as I only have one unit atm everything I do is mono, until I get a second one. smart ass... 8) Yes, I'm doing my best for a discount on my next Heider order No, but really Tony, if you are serious, of course I'll tell you anything and everything. No secrets! |
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 5, 2014 17:07:44 GMT -6
Premiere today! Not close to rock, pop or country. And not the music the whole world will hear, but anyway.. Solo flute overdub on a version of That Black Old Magic (Arlen/Mercer 1942). Flea249->Heider=Sweet! Edit: Here's a sample! dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1141125/Heider_Flute.mp3I guess everyone who have seen the hilarious flute solo scene by Will Ferell will enjoy Jazz flute, baby! Sounds great! Btw - what happened to all those sax players that could kill a sax and then pick up a flute and destroy that too? |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Dec 5, 2014 17:59:17 GMT -6
Premiere today! Not close to rock, pop or country. And not the music the whole world will hear, but anyway.. Solo flute overdub on a version of That Black Old Magic (Arlen/Mercer 1942). Flea249->Heider=Sweet! Edit: Here's a sample! dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1141125/Heider_Flute.mp3I guess everyone who have seen the hilarious flute solo scene by Will Ferell will enjoy Jazz flute, baby! Sounds great! Btw - what happened to all those sax players that could kill a sax and then pick up a flute and destroy that too? We have one of those cats that plays Chan's on the reg. Smokes. |
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Post by wiz on Dec 5, 2014 19:15:56 GMT -6
Take that bass for a walk, and keep those cymbals splashy....mmmmmm that's baby makin music right there........
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Post by bricejchandler on Dec 16, 2014 5:41:04 GMT -6
Hey everybody.
First post here. I'm interested in some Capi gear but have never heard any in real life. I've checked some samples on internet, thought it sounded great but would love to get your take on it. I'm setting up a mobile rig for myself, mainly acoustic singer song writer stuff and I'm hesitating between the VP28 and the Heider. How do they compare soundwise?
thanks guys
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Post by tonycamphd on Dec 16, 2014 10:55:47 GMT -6
Hey everybody. First post here. I'm interested in some Capi gear but have never heard any in real life. I've checked some samples on internet, thought it sounded great but would love to get your take on it. I'm setting up a mobile rig for myself, mainly acoustic singer song writer stuff and I'm hesitating between the VP28 and the Heider. How do they compare soundwise? thanks guys Welcome to the forum man! I'm a big fan of CAPI stuff, I can speak for the vp28s and lc53a eq's. Both of these are my #1 pieces, the vp28 is so versitile u won't believe it, u r in effect buying a pre and fader section from a console, the lc53 is impossible to make sound bad, I'm a light touch cut/boost guy, with these I feel confident being more aggressive!(swinging input Q). I'm an API sound fan over all, and I can say that these kits are so well designed and put together that they appear to sound more API than API? The ease of building the kits is a testiment to how well Jeff S operates, if you have skills enough to follow direction, and solder, these are the best thing going bar non IMO, if you have to buy pre made? Wally Heider pres don't exist anywhere else to my knowledge? And at $7 and change, it's a silly good deal. I gas for a pair of those! |
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Post by RicFoxx on Dec 16, 2014 12:04:35 GMT -6
I'm also an API guy! 2 API The Channel Strips and 2 VP28s. VP28s always on 2 buss. Like Tony said they are great sounding and very versatile! Wouldn't want to be without them especially if you like Punch!
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Post by odyssey76 on Dec 16, 2014 15:22:24 GMT -6
Hey everybody. First post here. I'm interested in some Capi gear but have never heard any in real life. I've checked some samples on internet, thought it sounded great but would love to get your take on it. I'm setting up a mobile rig for myself, mainly acoustic singer song writer stuff and I'm hesitating between the VP28 and the Heider. How do they compare soundwise? thanks guys Welcome to the forum! You'll find a ton of folks on RGO with CAPI gear. Off the top of my head the only 2 guys I can think of who have both the Heider AND VP28's are unit7 and @johnkenn. I just tagged those guys maybe they'll chime in. Jealous you're making the CAPI buys! I'd really love a pair of the Heider's (or VP28's)....... Hopefully this year |
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Post by bricejchandler on Dec 16, 2014 16:52:37 GMT -6
Hey all! Thanks for the warm welcome! I think this is my first post on an audio forum ( besides classifieds) in like 5 years!
From the reaction here and what I've read it does seem like both are great units, so probably can't go wrong , and unfortunately I have no soldering skills so for now I'll stick to assembled modules and pay a little extra! Both have features that I like, the HP filter for the VP28 and the great big meter on the Heider, why so few manufacturers actually include a meter on their equipment is a mystery to me.
Tony, I'll check out the EQ too at some point, sounds interesting, I've never been the biggest API eq fan for my music, always found the sound a little pointy/peaky but it sounds like these are different beasts.
I rarely EQ on the way in these days as I don't like to fiddle around too much when recording my own music, I like to just sit down, tune the guitar, turn the pre up and hit rec, call me lazy!
Thanks Justin for tagging them ( nice feature btw), I'd be really interested to hear their take on the sound difference between the 2 pres, the only comparison I've heard is Roundbadge's on GS and that didn't help me make up my mind at all as I found them both cool sounding!
By the way I will be using a pair of CMC6s for my acoustic sound and an SM7B and U87ai on my voice. I still haven't found the ideal mic for my vocals after trying A LOT and keep coming back to the SM7 not really for the sound but because I enjoy singing into it, after singing live into an SM58 for so long I just feel comfortable with and I feel I get better takes, anyway that's for another thread.
Thanks !
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Post by unit7 on Dec 16, 2014 17:32:20 GMT -6
Hey all! Thanks for the warm welcome! I think this is my first post on an audio forum ( besides classifieds) in like 5 years! From the reaction here and what I've read it does seem like both are great units, so probably can't go wrong , and unfortunately I have no soldering skills so for now I'll stick to assembled modules and pay a little extra! Both have features that I like, the HP filter for the VP28 and the great big meter on the Heider, why so few manufacturers actually include a meter on their equipment is a mystery to me. Tony, I'll check out the EQ too at some point, sounds interesting, I've never been the biggest API eq fan for my music, always found the sound a little pointy/peaky but it sounds like these are different beasts. I rarely EQ on the way in these days as I don't like to fiddle around too much when recording my own music, I like to just sit down, tune the guitar, turn the pre up and hit rec, call me lazy! Thanks Justin for tagging them ( nice feature btw), I'd be really interested to hear their take on the sound difference between the 2 pres, the only comparison I've heard is Roundbadge's on GS and that didn't help me make up my mind at all as I found them both cool sounding! By the way I will be using a pair of CMC6s for my acoustic sound and an SM7B and U87ai on my voice. I still haven't found the ideal mic for my vocals after trying A LOT and keep coming back to the SM7 not really for the sound but because I enjoy singing into it, after singing live into an SM58 for so long I just feel comfortable with and I feel I get better takes, anyway that's for another thread. Thanks ! Brice, my 2c: because you're not DIY, and also your pointy/peaky comment I have to recommend the Heider. I found it a tiny bit smoother. If you go for the VP28, make sure to get it with Scott Liebers's op amps. You mention that you're still looking for the ultimate mic (aren't we all..) I just wanted to comment that the difference between these pres is much more subtle than the difference between most mics, so I think you'll be happy with either. Good luck! |
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Post by bricejchandler on Dec 17, 2014 6:36:15 GMT -6
Thanks for the feedback Paul, Heider here I come! Yeah I know the whole pre thing is definitely blown out of proportion on forums, the first album I recorded was tracked on a Fostex VF16 standalone multitrack recorder and it honestly doesn't sound all that bad. But you know as a songwriter that tracks pretty much everything separately and through one pre these days, I do feel like the sound of the pre does come through a little. My last EP was pretty much tracked through my Mercury M72s and do hear its " sound " but I want something a little edgier this time around.
I just checked out your mic collection wow! Awesome place you got! Hey all! Thanks for the warm welcome! I think this is my first post on an audio forum ( besides classifieds) in like 5 years! From the reaction here and what I've read it does seem like both are great units, so probably can't go wrong , and unfortunately I have no soldering skills so for now I'll stick to assembled modules and pay a little extra! Both have features that I like, the HP filter for the VP28 and the great big meter on the Heider, why so few manufacturers actually include a meter on their equipment is a mystery to me. Tony, I'll check out the EQ too at some point, sounds interesting, I've never been the biggest API eq fan for my music, always found the sound a little pointy/peaky but it sounds like these are different beasts. I rarely EQ on the way in these days as I don't like to fiddle around too much when recording my own music, I like to just sit down, tune the guitar, turn the pre up and hit rec, call me lazy! Thanks Justin for tagging them ( nice feature btw), I'd be really interested to hear their take on the sound difference between the 2 pres, the only comparison I've heard is Roundbadge's on GS and that didn't help me make up my mind at all as I found them both cool sounding! By the way I will be using a pair of CMC6s for my acoustic sound and an SM7B and U87ai on my voice. I still haven't found the ideal mic for my vocals after trying A LOT and keep coming back to the SM7 not really for the sound but because I enjoy singing into it, after singing live into an SM58 for so long I just feel comfortable with and I feel I get better takes, anyway that's for another thread. Thanks ! Brice, my 2c: because you're not DIY, and also your pointy/peaky comment I have to recommend the Heider. I found it a tiny bit smoother. If you go for the VP28, make sure to get it with Scott Liebers's op amps. You mention that you're still looking for the ultimate mic (aren't we all..) I just wanted to comment that the difference between these pres is much more subtle than the difference between most mics, so I think you'll be happy with either. Good luck! |
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