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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 9, 2014 20:35:48 GMT -6
I'm late to this, and I don't have a clue how this got by me for years!(2009), But after the Telefunken M16 re branded apex 460 mic (untouched inside)debacle...or should i say fraud? I figured they may have learned their lesson, well...., i just found out about this, and it basically seals the deal in my mind that Telefunken USA is not to be trusted for any reason on anything they claim or sell whatsoever. Here is a pic of the inside of a VF14k tube that sells for $1000+usd, and a 408A tube, i purchased 10 western electric 408a tubes for $55 usd, can anyone give me a reason to not think Telefunken is a horrible company run by horrible people? I'm really stunned by this!   |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Nov 9, 2014 20:42:00 GMT -6
[quote author=" tonycamphd" source="/post/38351/thread" Here is a pic of the inside of a VF14k tube that sells for $1000+usd, and a 408A tube, i purchased 10 western electric 408a tubes for $55 usd, can anyone give me a reason to not think Telefunken is a horrible company run by horrible people? I'm really stunned by this! Attachment DeletedAttachment Deleted[/quote] Huh? What are you showing us? Are you saying the vf14k is just a 408a with a resistor or something? |
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 9, 2014 21:07:47 GMT -6
[quote author=" tonycamphd" source="/post/38351/thread" Here is a pic of the inside of a VF14k tube that sells for $1000+usd, and a 408A tube, i purchased 10 western electric 408a tubes for $55 usd, can anyone give me a reason to not think Telefunken is a horrible company run by horrible people? I'm really stunned by this! Huh? What are you showing us? Are you saying the vf14k is just a 408a with a resistor or something? [/quote] that's what i'm saying.... |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Nov 9, 2014 21:10:39 GMT -6
...I still want a pair of those ELA M 260's.  |
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Post by drbill on Nov 9, 2014 21:37:50 GMT -6
Tony - did you get that tube directly from TeleUSA and did you open it up yourself? It's pretty well known that there are fake VF-14's floating around the internet. I can't imagine TeleUSA being the source, but if they are.......
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 9, 2014 21:46:46 GMT -6
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Post by jcoutu1 on Nov 9, 2014 21:49:10 GMT -6
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 9, 2014 21:52:16 GMT -6
if you read the attached threads, they revealed the fact that they put a glass tube in the metal housing AFTERthis above picture was revealed on the interwebs.... |
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Post by kidvybes on Nov 9, 2014 21:52:50 GMT -6
www.avlgear.com/telefunken-elektroakustik-telefunken-vf14k-replacement-vacuum-tube-u47-u48...a $5 tube and a .40c resistor in a black tunafish can for $750... Fletcher's explanation (he was employed by Telefunken USA at the time): The tube is made out of glass... it's put into a housing that permits the tube to be a "drop in replacement" for a VF-14 (M stamp). They're "burned in", noise tested, checked for consistency and a metal housing is added so the thing doesn't look ugly as sin [which if you look at the pictures with the hood removed... they obviously look ugly as sin].
Telefunken USA does a very dilligent job to insure consistency of these tubes... it is the only "drop in / plug and play" alternative to a 50+ yr. old VF-14. Over the course of time the variations in VF-14 [even the ones with "M" stampings] is far greater than the variations found in the VF-14k... and over the years I've seen more than a few mics with VF-14 tubes that are missing the "M" stamp [and even a few with a counterfeit "M" stamp... which in my opinion is a truly criminal act]. Telefunken USA isn't counterfeiting the tubes... they're making a "plug and play" replacement... which if you ask me is a pretty cool thing.
Nobody has been trying to perpetrate any form of fraud... they've been trying to come up with a viable solution at a reasonable price that doesn't require further modification of the microphone... or in the case of the mics they build, keeps the product as close to the original as humanly possible... also a good thing.
The bottom line is that Telefunken USA put up the capital to buy several thousand of these tubes [not cheap], has devised systems to "quality control" these tubes, worked with an amazing consultant to get the right tube to work as a "plug and play" alternative to a VF-14 (M stamp)... and you guys are moaning that it's a glass tube in a metal can.Oliver Archut's explanation as to the origin of the picture (from this thread: repforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?topic=28765.0):As far as I know, the picture originated in Berlin and shows a test tube that TFKNA produced to see if the market would accepted a VF14- type of tube if they would flip the bill producing an identical one (the drawings are available).
With what they told me, the test trials were that successful, people that bought it thought it sounded the same or even better (there are a bunch of posts about that here on PSW), so TFKNA decided to updated the glued version into a welded steel housing.
The tube is US made, even they are a kind of secretive it seems like, that they bought the entire supply of this tube, which was original made for transatlantic telephone cable, off the market.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 9, 2014 21:55:08 GMT -6
Hi Tony, I don't quite follow here. It's hard to tell from the photo what's really going on.
From the shots posted, there seems to be some similarities between the tubes, but I can't really tell because of the size of the photo of the V14K tube. I'm sure if there was a $55 duplicate of a rare tube that sells for $1,000, someone like Oliver Archut would have bought a horde off them and used them in his designs.
I'm not saying you're wrong about anything, just that I can't really tell from here.
I got my Blackspade/Archut UM17 Blueline because after listening to a lot of songs and files, I felt the Telefunken AK47 MKII was the best sound I'd heard in it's class. It reminded me of a C12, though not equal, but something like the resemblance cousins might have. It turned out Oliver designed the AK47, and the UM17 was the AK47, but with a different badge, except Oliver hand made mine. It sold for 1/2 the price of the AK47. Once I got it, I had the Thiersch M7 capsule installed by Sinsay. So the Telefunken AK47 seemed like a high quality, well made mic to me. Perhaps a little overpriced.
* ahh, the above posts weren't there when I first looked, I see now. I think Telefunken USA has some splainin' to do. The graphic chart they posted comparing the two tubes was impressive though.
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Post by ericn on Nov 9, 2014 22:00:54 GMT -6
This was disscussed years ago Yeah Telefunken USAs new version of the VF14 was a glass tube in a metal housing.
They do mak a very nice mic, but for the price of one of theirs give me a couple Fleas or Bocks!
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 9, 2014 22:02:33 GMT -6
Hi Tony, I don't quite follow here. It's hard to tell from the photo what's really going on. From the shots posted, there seems to be some similarities between the tubes, but I can't really tell because of the size of the photo of the V14K tube. I'm sure if there was a $55 duplicate of a rare tube that sells for $1,000, someone like Oliver Archut would have bought a horde off them and used them in his designs. I'm not saying you're wrong about anything, just that I can't really tell from here. I got my Blackspade/Archut UM17 Blueline because after listening to a lot of songs and files, I felt the Telefunken AK47 MKII was the best sound I'd heard in it's class. It reminded me of a C12, though not equal, but something like the resemblance cousins might have. It turned out Oliver designed the AK47, and the UM17 was the AK47, but with a different badge, except Oliver hand made mine. It sold for 1/2 the price of the AK47. Once I got it, I had the Thiersch M7 capsule installed by Sinsay. So the Telefunken AK47 seemed like a high quality, well made mic to me. Perhaps a little overpriced. click on the pic for big.. it looks remarkably like a 408/407 tube. On the AK47, i was wrong, the original Telefunken M16 was an untouched apex 460 that Tele took a ton of shit for schlepping out.  |
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Post by kidvybes on Nov 9, 2014 22:18:41 GMT -6
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 9, 2014 22:36:08 GMT -6
Cool link kidvybes. Still, 260 British pounds is around $445, so theirs isn't cheap either. Hey, is Oliver's "classic BV-8" you mentioned the same as mine? Attachment DeletedIt would be fun to know how Telefunken's tube sounds in the DIY MK47. Tony, after seeing Fletcher's and Oliver's comments, do you still feel this was a rip off? (Not judging, just curious). |
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 9, 2014 23:02:47 GMT -6
Cool link kidvybes. Still, 260 British pounds is around $445, so theirs isn't cheap either. Hey, is Oliver's "classic BV-8" you mentioned the same as mine? It would be fun to know how Telefunken's tube sounds in the DIY MK47. Tony, after seeing Fletcher's and Oliver's comments, do you still feel this was a rip off? (Not judging, just curious). putting tubes that are available at 10 pieces for $55, unannounced in a steel vf14 lookalike housing with a "k" added on the end of it.........? Well lets just say it has about the same ethical value as selling a $229 Apex 460 as a Telefunken M16 for $1,400, you be the judge, they have proven on 2 different occasions that they will do anything they think they can get away with to make a buck, it begs the question..what else arent they telling you? Maybe this is a company some want to put their trust in? For me, not a chance. recordinghacks.com/articles/telefunken-m16-and-apex-460-comparison/It's a shame whoever took this company over has sullied the legendary name, my whole life when i heard the words "telefunken elam251" or "Telefunken U47", it was an attention grabbing enticer of excitement! Now the first thing that will come to mind is... "what era?" |
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Post by drbill on Nov 9, 2014 23:09:55 GMT -6
Wow. Tony - didn't read it all, but read enough to see what's going on. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt, but after 2 huge fails, I know I won't be buying any TelefunkenUSA OR Tab-Funkenworks products in the future. There are too many other great options available. Not sure how we missed it when it hit the fan, but geez..... BTW - I find it interesting that Max settled on the same tube. Coincidence? I think not. But from what I've seen on the MK47, the tubes are problematic enough that with traditional markup, it might actually have cost TelefunkenUSA enough to justify the markup. LOL Well, not really, but those tubes are PROBLEMATIC at best, incredibly frustrating at worst, and if they were qualifying them, QCing them and sealing them in cans, they must have done a HUGE amount of qualifying to cherry pick them. That said, a MK47 is every bit the equivalent if not superior product, but if you mark a MK47 up with traditional discount, dealer, distributer and manufacturer markups, it would cost about the same as the T-USA mics. <<<sigh>>> Another couple of bubbles burst today. Thanks a LOT! :-) |
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Post by kidvybes on Nov 9, 2014 23:11:31 GMT -6
Cool link kidvybes. Still, 260 British pounds is around $445, so theirs isn't cheap either. Hey, is Oliver's "classic BV-8" you mentioned the same as mine? It would be fun to know how Telefunken's tube sounds in the DIY MK47. Tony, after seeing Fletcher's and Oliver's comments, do you still feel this was a rip off? (Not judging, just curious). ...as to the BV08 transformer, I replied in detail to your question in the MK-U47 thread... ...as far as Telefunken's VF14K tube in the DIY MK-47, it is the same tube used in the MK-47 (408a) except, as I understand it, Max employs two 408a tubes in a parallel circuit to better match the original VF14's performance specs...so they are both utilizing the same tube (as is Saturn Sound), only in different configurations... |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 9, 2014 23:14:14 GMT -6
I hear you Tony. I'm still curious to know how it sounds in comparison to other tubes. It did seem like a ridiculously high price.
If it was say $299, it would still seem high, but perhaps their retrofitting and redesigning as well as overhead and promotion might make that seem understandable.
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Post by drbill on Nov 9, 2014 23:21:46 GMT -6
Tony - as an aside, I put a Klaus Heine modded U47, an M49, a Joly modded Oktava319, a STOCK $110 Chinese (Apex) 460, and Joly's modded 460 in a good shootout. A blind one. On a GS thread with hundreds of people weighing in on the results.
Before announcing the mics origins, the stock Chinese mic and the Joly 460 were the front runners, so that $1400 Apex AK probably isn't such a bad mic, but I agree with you completely on the ethical level.
When it comes to high end mic manufacturers, the smoke and mirrors is almost always present, and the amount of BS is palpable.
BTW, the Joly 460 edged out the stock 460, but both handily tromped on the other mics. BTW, the people I rented them from AND Klaus were not happy with me. Neither was Capitol Records when I shot out their M49's, U48's C12, 44's, 77's, and 67's with cheaper alternatives for my enlightenment, enjoyment and mic purchasing decisions.
Bottom line - the ONLY vintage mic I'd pay vintage prices for MIGHT be a KILLER M49. Everything else has options that are so close as to be virtually identical, With the possibility of the 67, which is NOT a must have mic for me.
Funny isn't it.....
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Post by svart on Nov 9, 2014 23:24:55 GMT -6
Wow. Tony - didn't read it all, but read enough to see what's going on. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt, but after 2 huge fails, I know I won't be buying any TelefunkenUSA OR Tab-Funkenworks products in the future. There are too many other great options available. Not sure how we missed it when it hit the fan, but geez..... BTW - I find it interesting that Max settled on the same tube. Coincidence? I think not. But from what I've seen on the MK47, the tubes are problematic enough that with traditional markup, it might actually have cost TelefunkenUSA enough to justify the markup. LOL Well, not really, but those tubes are PROBLEMATIC at best, incredibly frustrating at worst, and if they were qualifying them, QCing them and sealing them in cans, they must have done a HUGE amount of qualifying to cherry pick them. That said, a MK47 is every bit the equivalent if not superior product, but if you mark a MK47 up with traditional discount, dealer, distributer and manufacturer markups, it would cost about the same as the T-USA mics. <<<sigh>>> Another couple of bubbles burst today. Thanks a LOT! :-) Just for the record, TAB-Funkenwerk doesn't have anything to do with Telefunken. The similarity in name has led to many internet forum members being mistaken and loading up threads full of conjecture. |
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Post by kidvybes on Nov 9, 2014 23:26:55 GMT -6
Wow. Tony - didn't read it all, but read enough to see what's going on. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt, but after 2 huge fails, I know I won't be buying any TelefunkenUSA OR Tab-Funkenworks products in the future. There are too many other great options available. Not sure how we missed it when it hit the fan, but geez..... BTW - I find it interesting that Max settled on the same tube. Coincidence? I think not. But from what I've seen on the MK47, the tubes are problematic enough that with traditional markup, it might actually have cost TelefunkenUSA enough to justify the markup. LOL Well, not really, but those tubes are PROBLEMATIC at best, incredibly frustrating at worst, and if they were qualifying them, QCing them and sealing them in cans, they must have done a HUGE amount of qualifying to cherry pick them. That said, a MK47 is every bit the equivalent if not superior product, but if you mark a MK47 up with traditional discount, dealer, distributer and manufacturer markups, it would cost about the same as the T-USA mics. <<<sigh>>> Another couple of bubbles burst today. Thanks a LOT! :-) ...Bill, I think Oliver Archut made it clear in his explanation that he had nothing to do with the implementation of that 408a tube in Tele USA's VF14K (http://repforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,28765.105/wap2.html)...I quote: "So here now, is my involvement with Telefunken USA's tube project:
I made original materials to Telefunken-USA available that came out of the tube factory in Ulm, as well as (giving them) original production information and parts that came out of the tube factory in Berlin. What they do with them is their business. If somebody thinks this makes me a part of Telefunken-USA, they are wrong. I neither endorse or defend their products or marketing, and I stated that several times in my posts.
And the last time I checked with Telefunken, their VF14k tubes are made in Connecticut by Telefunken-USA. So, to answer if I make tubes or replacement tubes, I have to say "no".
I hope that clears it up."
...so I wouldn't be too quick to couple TAB/Funkenwerks with Telefunken USA (or whatever they call themselves today)... ...as far as the problematic MK-47 tubes, it seems that those noise issues are most commonly associated with the Western Electric manufactured version of that 408a tube (Northern Electric and other re-labelled tubes originating with WE)...the WEs are the easiest to source, and many in the DIY community were grabbing them up (cheap and plentiful!)...it's now being discovered that other sources for that tube (RCAs in particular) do not display those issues...Shane (CAT5) and myself are planning to test other brands which may share origin with the RCAs to see if they also offer more reliable performance (Philips, GE, Sylvania, etc)...so the tube problem may prove to be less an issue than originally thought... |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2014 23:26:58 GMT -6
Yes,
i am pretty sure Max tested all options experimentally. He is kind of a perfectionist, and if it could have been done as well with one 408a, he would have done it.
We have seen different substitutes like starting with UF14 and EF14 which are clearly different things, Wagner made the best replica for a while with the EF12k tube, EF/PF86 can be used with design changes including the transformer windings and make damn good mics like Max first U47 clone, the MK7.
I guess we have reached a saturation in the efforts to emulate the unobtanium VF14m directly, and there seems to be a consense that the 408a is probably the best candidate and probably most accurate in double parallel configuration.
It's nice to see, that it seems there is an optimum achieved in this task...
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Post by drbill on Nov 9, 2014 23:30:15 GMT -6
I hope that clears it up." Not really for me. Sorry. I read all the above. I think my opinion is my own, but one I'll stick with. Like I said earlier, the smoke and mirrors is palpable.... And svart - I'm well aware of the name similarities, and the differences between the companies. Thx. |
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Post by svart on Nov 9, 2014 23:31:12 GMT -6
if you read the attached threads, they revealed the fact that they put a glass tube in the metal housing AFTERthis above picture was revealed on the interwebs.... Typical Telefunken.  |
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 9, 2014 23:32:43 GMT -6
Sorry to be a bringer of bad news doctor  , i though i was the last guy to know about this, kidvibes knows everything about mics, and he brought it to my attention. Martin John Butler i think the problem is, if they figured out a tube replacement that would compete with a vf14 sonically, why the hell would they go through the trouble of canning it like that? it's pretty clear with the original concealing of what it actually was, qualifies it as a scheist imo. Also, the use of a single 408a tube would have to be sub par in it's performance for my understanding of the U47 circuit, i guess telefunken usa couldn't shoehorn 2 408a's running in parallel into the vf14 can? Also, I shouldn't fail to mention, the accelerated thermal degradation the glass tube would suffer from being closed up and unventilated in a metal can would be extreme! at the original cost of $1,000, no biggie! It's actually absurdly shameful imo...smh |
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, i though i was the last guy to know about this, kidvibes knows everything about mics, and he brought it to my attention.