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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 10, 2014 20:46:06 GMT -6
I'd love to hear that too.
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Post by drbill on Nov 10, 2014 21:58:59 GMT -6
You got a link to that thread ? Thanks for the tip about the apex 460 . Scumbum - that mic REALLY is helped out with a better tube. The stockers are spotty and range from killer to DOA after a year or so. That's the best money you can dump into it IMO, although Brad liked the stock tube better than a vintage 50's NOS tube. Beyond that, a capsule and or circuit mod help out, although incrementally less. If it's interesting to you, leave your thoughts on the thread. Here's the link.... www.gearslutz.com/board/gear-shoot-outs-sound-file-comparisons-audio-tests/415414-mic-mod-madness.htmlPS - wow. Went back and perused that thread again. Hadn't read it in a couple years. What a wild ride. Klaus and all. I still say the $110 mic kicked azz.... The reality is that vintage icons do not always come out on top. And I'll stand by that comment. |
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Post by LesC on Nov 10, 2014 23:02:17 GMT -6
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Post by LesC on Nov 10, 2014 23:06:45 GMT -6
Interesting thread by the way, Dr. Bill!
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Post by Ward on Nov 10, 2014 23:55:22 GMT -6
What we've learned from this: Eventually someone would figure out a viable substitute for VF14M tubes and the original Neumann U47/U48 microphones and clones could live on for a very very long time. Or just use an SM58 for a very similar sound. I've never done a shoot out with those mics , you think the sm58 sounds that close ?
Not my personal findings, but an opinion widely expressed amongst audio professionals who have. Wish I could quickly find one, but if I do, I'll post a link to it here.
Even if it comes from Purpleland! (GASP!)
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Post by drbill on Nov 11, 2014 0:25:20 GMT -6
Interesting thread by the way, Dr. Bill! Thanks man. There was a weird backslash at the end of the link that got in there somehow. I fixed it just in case anyone else clicked on it. Sorry for the confusion. It was a pretty fun thread.... |
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Post by RicFoxx on Nov 11, 2014 7:54:28 GMT -6
There is a reason that a few companies rebranded the TNC 1200...it is a good sounding mic. Now some people will not accept this because how can a 200$ mic beat out a U47 in a blind shootout??? Telefunken thought it was good enough to charge $1200...wow! I think people are looking for a magical solution...it is not there.
It's just like anything else, Golf for example...if you are not a good golfer it HAS to be the clubs and most of the advertisement is towards those who are not skilled...so it must be the clubs, so they go out and buy the newest bestest scientifically improved set and their game still is poor because they are missing the fundamentals of the game, usually from wrong perspective (thinking they have to try to hit the ball up instead of of hitting down on the ball to make it go up.) Then someone who is truly a skilled golfer comes up to them on the range and says let me see that club (as he has noticed the person cussing the golf club for sucking)....takes the club and smacks the shit out of the ball and says nope...not the club.
Back on topic...seems a lot slimy for a company to repeatedly do questionable things.
We live in exciting times to record music. Lots of great cheap gear and a cool place like RGO to learn from skilled professionals!!!
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Post by svart on Nov 11, 2014 8:18:13 GMT -6
I still say the Fox minimod makes the Apex460 into a true contender. Just put an AT7 in place of the AX7 tube and clip out C9 and C10. That's what you need to do to make it a good solid mic.
I also golf sometimes too. There are shit clubs that aren't good for anything, and there are workhorse clubs, and there are insane clubs where you really just buy hype and names. It's just like the mic world! Once you reach the workhorse level, it's diminishing returns spending more money than that.
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 11, 2014 9:06:51 GMT -6
I went though two sets of crappy golf clubs before I got my big berthas in 1996, they are great and I still use them every 2 years when I flog(golf spelled backwards 8)
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Post by RicFoxx on Nov 11, 2014 9:20:13 GMT -6
I went though two sets of crappy golf clubs before I got my big berthas in 1996, they are great and I still use them every 2 years when I flog(golf spelled backwards 8) Those Berthas are the easiest to hit clubs ever made...kinda like auto-tune...makes up for bad technique but doesn't feel natural. I guess if Callaway rebranded a knock off Bertha and sold it as a premiere set of clubs it would be about the same thing as telefunken did. Man...if I ever get out your way, we should golf and then spend all night making some music!!! |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 11, 2014 10:42:53 GMT -6
Great post Dr. Bill, thanks.
OK, I chose mic #3 (modded U47), as my first choice, both solo and with music. My second choice was mic 5 (M49) solo and with music.
* But when mic 4 was used with the music, in the track, it fared so well, it deserved an honorable mention. I could live with that modded Apex, for sure. I guess my tastes do run to the high end though. I noticed the slight sense of distance with the M49, but found the quality so good, I would tweak it a little with a choice of preamp and compressor/EQ.
It's interesting to me that my mic is supposedly a cross between the U47 and M49, and those mics were my preference. Oliver Archut said my mic sounds like an M49, and he built it, so he should know.
* just realized we've gotten sidetracked on Tony's thread about Telefunken USA's questionable practices, so maybe you might port this discussion to a new thread DR. Bill? Perhaps reposting the test, let it ride a a day, then reveal?
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 11, 2014 11:06:55 GMT -6
Maybe a digression but one thing about the history.
Isn't there an historical link between asian engineers and neumann ? I know I read somewhere about asian engineers working in the neuman facilities and then returning to either china or japen and setting up their production facilities.
So chinese mikes may be typically manufactured cheaply but some may have better bones than people realize. If it sounds good: it is good !?
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Post by kidvybes on Nov 11, 2014 11:53:52 GMT -6
Maybe a digression but one thing about the history. Isn't there an historical link between asian engineers and neumann ? I know I read somewhere about asian engineers working in the neuman facilities and then returning to either china or japen and setting up their production facilities. So chinese mikes may be typically manufactured cheaply but some may have better bones than people realize. If it sounds good: it is good !? ...the East Germans sent their engineers to China in the 60's to assist in training government staff to produce higher quality communications equipment for the broadcast sector...that original Chinese government facility (designated "797") has since splintered into at least a couple of reputable manufacturing plants, the largest and most prestigious being Feilo, who happen to manufacture very high-quality microphones for some pretty pricey "boutique mic" lines in the US and abroad... ...the SYT-1100 (Alctron brands it as the Apex 460 among many other re-branded variants) has a circuit, part of which is based on the original AKG C12, but converted to the Chinese's own version of a CCDA circuit (constant draw amplifier circuit)...it's actually a very sophisticated circuit, and with minor tweaking and a tube upgrade, can perform quite well... ...probably the best example of a ready-to-use, inexpensive "pre-modded" version of the SYT1100 is the Stellar CM-5 at $415...it is essentially the Apex 460, but with a modded/upgraded circuit (metal-film capacitors), an upgraded 34mm 6-micron edge-terminated C12-style capsule (in place of the 460's 32mm center-terminated capsule), an upgraded dual-bobbin T14-style transformer (based on the ELAM 251 tranny) and a EH 6072A tube in place of the 460's Chinese 12AX7 tube...Dave Thomas uses the same design as the basis for his CM12se and CM251 tube mics (at much higher pricepoints with slight component variation)... ...there's much more info on this 2-stage cathode-follower style CCDA circuit here on Brian Fox's (foxaudio.ca) website: foxaudioresearch.ca/CCDA.htm |
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Post by scumbum on Nov 11, 2014 12:15:20 GMT -6
You got a link to that thread ? Thanks for the tip about the apex 460 . Scumbum - that mic REALLY is helped out with a better tube. The stockers are spotty and range from killer to DOA after a year or so. That's the best money you can dump into it IMO, although Brad liked the stock tube better than a vintage 50's NOS tube. Beyond that, a capsule and or circuit mod help out, although incrementally less. If it's interesting to you, leave your thoughts on the thread. Here's the link.... www.gearslutz.com/board/gear-shoot-outs-sound-file-comparisons-audio-tests/415414-mic-mod-madness.htmlPS - wow. Went back and perused that thread again. Hadn't read it in a couple years. What a wild ride. Klaus and all. I still say the $110 mic kicked azz.... The reality is that vintage icons do not always come out on top. And I'll stand by that comment. Thanks Master Sensei ! Your shoot outs are extremely helpful ! Now I don't have to sell my left kidney to buy a nice mic ! |
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 11, 2014 12:53:49 GMT -6
Oops...just realized we are in the Tele Really thread...damn, I guess we've gotten off topic. I was speaking of the MK47 ^^ this^^ man who do we report this guy to ?  ah Frank called his 47 a tele right: back on topic. |
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Post by winetree on Nov 11, 2014 19:36:21 GMT -6
now this is what i'm talking bout!! if telefunk would've done this, a few things would have happened for sure, (beside achieving better function with max's genius parallel design), this thread would have never happened, and they could've charged a reasonable price and sold these to a ton of guys, instead they got bad public exposure/distrust and this thread. From the beginning, all would have been "good", and money made if the lid was taken taken off exposing a very good idea, JMO. ioaudio will this function in an original U47 circuit? my guess is it will NOT? Yup. There's no doubt that for a fair price, if it sounds as good as it should, EVERY U47 owner would have bought a couple as "spares". Max just e-mailed me saying he's burning in tubes for his twin tube plug-in VF-14 replacement and will be sending it out to me. I'll be doing a comparison with it to my real VF-14 in my Neumann U47. Attachments:
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 11, 2014 21:53:30 GMT -6
Now that will be be interesting. Thanks winetree for doing this, and thanks to Max for staying in touch with us all here.
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Post by yotonic on Nov 11, 2014 23:07:52 GMT -6
"Tony - as an aside, I put a Klaus Heine modded U47, an M49, a Joly modded Oktava319, a STOCK $110 Chinese (Apex) 460, and Joly's modded 460 in a good shootout. A blind one. On a GS thread with hundreds of people weighing in on the results. Before announcing the mics origins, the stock Chinese mic and the Joly 460 were the front runners, so that $1400 Apex AK probably isn't such a bad mic, but I agree with you completely on the ethical level." I am not surprised by this at all Bill. Most everyone on GS is an amateur bedroom recordist and few if any have ever actually used a Neumann U47. They are raised on pop radio and the loudness wars where the sizzle of a cheap Chinese capsule in Adele's Rode Classic or Katy Perry's Manley Ref is what they associate a great vocal sound with. I have owned and used real U47s quite a bit and I still catch myself being attracted to the sizzle of a cheap capsule like a raccoon to a shiny object! And while those mics sound exciting soloed they aren't as useful tools in making great recordings in my personal opinion. I love my MK47 but it does not perform at the same level as my old Neumann U47 or Voxorama 47. That said, gear has come so far that talented Engineers can make some pretty great sounding recordings today with pretty average gear. You certainly don't need a vintage U47 to make a great record, but 100 idiots on GS saying they love a Joly mic doesn't make vintage Neumann microphones a fools errand. But I agree that you pay exorbitantly for the smaller and smaller increments in performance that you get as you move up the ladder of vintage mics. They will always be around in the studios where top artists are making records just like the Neves because they work and they deliver most of the time. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 14, 2015 20:33:35 GMT -6
Yup. There's no doubt that for a fair price, if it sounds as good as it should, EVERY U47 owner would have bought a couple as "spares". Max just e-mailed me saying he's burning in tubes for his twin tube plug-in VF-14 replacement and will be sending it out to me. I'll be doing a comparison with it to my real VF-14 in my Neumann U47. This ever happen, winetree? |
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Post by winetree on Mar 15, 2015 12:45:17 GMT -6
No not yet. Still waiting.
Max e-mailed and said he had to handmake the part for his VF14 replacement
and that he was still busy putting kits together.
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Post by wiz on Mar 15, 2015 16:25:46 GMT -6
winetreedid you ever get into your safe?.. please tell me those M49s aren't still trapped.............. cheers Wiz
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Post by winetree on Mar 15, 2015 17:31:45 GMT -6
Unbelievably, I got it opened. I think I can add safe cracker to my resume.
I have another safe just like it and I was able to use that opened safe to figure out a way to open the locked one.
I've got a Ross Martin Superbeast being built.
When I get it and hooked up, I'll do some fair mic comparisions at my place and post them.
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Post by jdc on Mar 15, 2015 21:12:21 GMT -6
read through this whole thing today. reading kidvybes post above made me want to try the Stellar CM-5. anyone else have any experience with this mic? |
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