|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Nov 10, 2014 10:11:32 GMT -6
Also soon available, my VF14r:  Well, there you go! Nice, ioaudio |
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Nov 10, 2014 10:21:18 GMT -6
I hear you on this, the only thing is for me, i learned a while back that MOST internet shoot outs are not very useful, it's only when i live with a piece of gear for a bit do i really find out what it has/hasn't to offer. That said, i've shot out a matachung C12 with a TC capsule in it, against a modded 460 and a stock 460, the diffs were NOT small in person, and the matachung C12 won blind and in a handy fashion... so? Agreed. But I was THERE. My client looking for a mic was THERE. I shared for the world to be nice. Mics are funny things. I have a lot of very expensive ones, and some cheap ones too. Quite often the cheapies win out. Go figure.... Source is everything. |
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Nov 10, 2014 10:24:23 GMT -6
...BTW, you quoted Oliver, not me...those of us who were lucky enough to know Oliver personally know better than to link him and AMI/Tab-Funkenwerks to the funny business going down in Connecticut...two entirely different sets of ethics...but you know what they say about "opinions"... No, I didn't quote Oliver - you're wrong about that. But you're right about the "opinion" part - and I'm well aware of yours. thanks. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2014 10:55:40 GMT -6
I hear you on this, the only thing is for me, i learned a while back that MOST internet shoot outs are not very useful, it's only when i live with a piece of gear for a bit do i really find out what it has/hasn't to offer. That said, i've shot out a matachung C12 with a TC capsule in it, against a modded 460 and a stock 460, the diffs were NOT small in person, and the matachung C12 won blind and in a handy fashion... so? Agreed. But I was THERE. My client looking for a mic was THERE. I shared for the world to be nice. Mics are funny things. I have a lot of very expensive ones, and some cheap ones too. Quite often the cheapies win out. Go figure.... Source is everything. Yes, things like this happen. Sometimes, the cheap mic wins. Everytime, someone posts this, there are people around lifting their eyebrows, but it simply happens. It just happened i stumbled upon a shootout report on a much too purple site researching what people say about my old ADK Generis GT2, which is a generic china mic that doesn't sound too bad. The shootout reportedly made music students organizing a group buy because the mic has been picked preferably to some of the "big guys". On this very snobby site, what was the end of the story? The reporter was accused to be a liar, more or less. Truth is - i believe every word of that report - things like this happen. No matter, if it doesn't fit the pricing structure or expectations. We know what we are after if we lookout for the classic mics, the "big guys". We look out for very special qualities/sonics. But this doesn't mean relatively cheap mics are bad or unusable per se. Not at all. They might be just not the kind of plug in and get that sound you exactly know you wanted always devices..... This must be said from time to time... |
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Nov 10, 2014 11:00:57 GMT -6
Yes. ^^^^
It's telling that the two mics that were leading the pack were the cheap mic and the upgraded cheap mic by Joly. The "classics" that cost 10X's the price did not fare well. It wasn't just my opinion. Not just my clients opinion, but the majority of listeners opinion as well. Like I said - go figure.
If I could only have expensive classics or cheap chinese mics, well....I'd obviously choose the classics. But luckily I don't have to make that choice, because if I did, my recordings would not be as good as they are....
|
|
|
|
Post by tonycamphd on Nov 10, 2014 11:01:58 GMT -6
Also soon available, my VF14r: now this is what i'm talking bout!! if telefunk would've done this, a few things would have happened for sure, (beside achieving better function with max's genius parallel design), this thread would have never happened, and they could've charged a reasonable price and sold these to a ton of guys, instead they got bad public exposure/distrust and this thread. From the beginning, all would have been "good", and money made if the lid was taken taken off exposing a very good idea, JMO. ioaudio will this function in an original U47 circuit? my guess is it will NOT? |
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,107 
|
Post by ericn on Nov 10, 2014 11:08:35 GMT -6
I hear you on this, the only thing is for me, i learned a while back that MOST internet shoot outs are not very useful, it's only when i live with a piece of gear for a bit do i really find out what it has/hasn't to offer. That said, i've shot out a matachung C12 with a TC capsule in it, against a modded 460 and a stock 460, the diffs were NOT small in person, and the matachung C12 won blind and in a handy fashion... so? Agreed. But I was THERE. My client looking for a mic was THERE. I shared for the world to be nice. Mics are funny things. I have a lot of very expensive ones, and some cheap ones too. Quite often the cheapies win out. Go figure.... Source is everything. My Dear doctor, I have said it so often it's not about the best mic it's all about the right mic! That and there are 3 differnt sounds that come into play 1 what the musician thinks he sounds like 2 what he wants to sound like 3 what he really sounds like! |
|
|
|
Post by tonycamphd on Nov 10, 2014 11:15:05 GMT -6
Agreed. But I was THERE. My client looking for a mic was THERE. I shared for the world to be nice. Mics are funny things. I have a lot of very expensive ones, and some cheap ones too. Quite often the cheapies win out. Go figure.... Source is everything. Yes, things like this happen. Sometimes, the cheap mic wins. Everytime, someone posts this, there are people around lifting their eyebrows, but it simply happens. It just happened i stumbled upon a shootout report on a much too purple site researching what people say about my old ADK Generis GT2, which is a generic china mic that doesn't sound too bad. The shootout reportedly made music students organizing a group buy because the mic has been picked preferably to some of the "big guys". On this very snobby site, what was the end of the story? The reporter was accused to be a liar, more or less. Truth is - i believe every word of that report - things like this happen. No matter, if it doesn't fit the pricing structure or expectations. We know what we are after if we lookout for the classic mics, the "big guys". We look out for very special qualities/sonics. But this doesn't mean relatively cheap mics are bad or unusable per se. Not at all. They might be just not the kind of plug in and get that sound you exactly know you wanted always devices..... This must be said from time to time... I have a self modded Oktava MK319 to die for, i paid $79 for it, and about $20 for mod parts, i wouldn't trade it for anything!  |
|
|
|
Post by kidvybes on Nov 10, 2014 12:03:22 GMT -6
...BTW, you quoted Oliver, not me...those of us who were lucky enough to know Oliver personally know better than to link him and AMI/Tab-Funkenwerks to the funny business going down in Connecticut...two entirely different sets of ethics...but you know what they say about "opinions"... No, I didn't quote Oliver - you're wrong about that. ...actually, not...the one line of my original post that you quoted was in clearly in italics and within "quotation marks"...that was part of Oliver's archived post, when he said, " I hope that clears it up."...jeez... |
|
|
|
Post by ioaudio on Nov 10, 2014 12:09:10 GMT -6
ioaudio will this function in an original U47 circuit? my guess is it will NOT? It will! |
|
|
|
Post by tonycamphd on Nov 10, 2014 12:38:49 GMT -6
ioaudio will this function in an original U47 circuit? my guess is it will NOT? It will! Nice! Max= the best thing that's happened to the U47 since the U47 8) |
|
|
|
Post by lpedrum on Nov 10, 2014 12:52:45 GMT -6
OK…No problem at all Tony about bringing up the dark side of gear when we need to do so. Knowledge is power, or it used to be anyway. But if I can be completely honest here's what's bugging me about this thread. 1. I live in CT and I know the guys over at Telefunken USA. Not well, but enough to not want to see them lynched online. I use mics, I don't make them. So as to the specifics of tubes I admit it's over my head. 2. Other builders and makers that I admire have chimed in here in a really harsh way and it makes me question their motives, and frankly I don't want to do that. 3. I was recently asked by JK to start a thread on the new Ensemble and I did so a few days ago. 53 views, 1 like, zero replies. Yet this sort of red meat thread gets everybody in an uproar--sadly including me. 4. I thought that RGO was set up in part to be different than GS, yet here we are reading and responding to an old GS thread that was extremely poorly moderated. I truly like your threads and posts on this site Tony. But this one just hit a nerve on many levels for me. So - I've just read as far as your post, lpedrum (I should probably read the whole thread before responding...but here I go)... Here's my opinion. I don't think there's anything wrong - at all - about posting this. Unless it's false information. If it is, it will be taken down. As far as RGO being set up to be different than GS - it is. This kind of thread is exactly the purpose of these forums. If TeleUSA is selling $5 tubes in a metal housing for 2000 % markup, it's not ILLEGAL, it's just a bit unethical. Obviously, there was a market that would bear it. Tele is also adding in "testing and research" into that markup. Now - if the truth of what is actually IN the thing comes out - the market may not bear the markup of the "VF14k". I - for one - would not buy one after seeing something like this. So far (as I have read), I don't see anything in this thread that has been out of line. As far as the Ensemble post - I appreciate you doing that. Take into consideration that in a community this small, the Ensemble might appeal to a small fraction of us. Unfortunately/fortunately, we don't have 200,000 members to post replies about it. I never suggested closing this thread John. I was just sharing my feelings about the tone and vibe of it. On the internet it's way too easy to vilify folks, and I just happen to know some of the folks being vilified. I'm not condoning anything Telefunken did or did not do, but as a rule these sort of red meat threads turn me off, and I was simply posting my opinion about that. Meanwhile today is a good day! President Obama just took a big stand for net neutrality, and in the long run that's more important to my livelihood as a musician/producer than how much a tube costs. |
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Nov 10, 2014 13:08:23 GMT -6
And you are welcome to your opinion...So now we have both sides of the coin - that's good!
BTW - I initially thought that this whole "free internet" thing would be BAD for intellectual property. Not being able to enforce laws on ISP's? I don't like that AT ALL.
|
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Nov 10, 2014 13:19:31 GMT -6
Also soon available, my VF14r: now this is what i'm talking bout!! if telefunk would've done this, a few things would have happened for sure, (beside achieving better function with max's genius parallel design), this thread would have never happened, and they could've charged a reasonable price and sold these to a ton of guys, instead they got bad public exposure/distrust and this thread. From the beginning, all would have been "good", and money made if the lid was taken taken off exposing a very good idea, JMO. ioaudio will this function in an original U47 circuit? my guess is it will NOT? Yup. There's no doubt that for a fair price, if it sounds as good as it should, EVERY U47 owner would have bought a couple as "spares". |
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Nov 10, 2014 13:21:00 GMT -6
Agreed. But I was THERE. My client looking for a mic was THERE. I shared for the world to be nice. Mics are funny things. I have a lot of very expensive ones, and some cheap ones too. Quite often the cheapies win out. Go figure.... Source is everything. My Dear doctor, I have said it so often it's not about the best mic it's all about the right mic! That and there are 3 differnt sounds that come into play 1 what the musician thinks he sounds like 2 what he wants to sound like 3 what he really sounds like! Exactly right. I've said it a hundred times if I've said it once. |
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Nov 10, 2014 13:22:36 GMT -6
No, I didn't quote Oliver - you're wrong about that. ...actually, not...the one line of my original post that you quoted was in clearly in italics and within "quotation marks"...that was part of Oliver's archived post, when he said, " I hope that clears it up."...jeez... No, double jeez - I quoted YOU. I didn't edit out Olivers part that was in YOUR quote. Sorry for that. Part of the weird architecture of this site.... |
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Nov 10, 2014 14:19:16 GMT -6
Unless Kiddyvibes edited his post, Um...yes you did. When you click the "quote" button, the "weird architecture" of this site copies everything that was said in that post. SO - you would have had to have edited his post down to that one sentence yourself.
Anyway, that shit is childish and irrelevant. Obviously, there's something personal going on, so lets just move on from it.
|
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Nov 10, 2014 15:07:23 GMT -6
I thought that was what I said.....
|
|
|
|
Post by category5 on Nov 10, 2014 18:56:37 GMT -6
The ONLY reason this was called out as a foul on Telefunken's part was that they 1-made it seem like they found a secret tube nobody has ever seen or heard of. 2 - hid it in a tin can after an ugly tip snip when they could have elegantly displayed it like ioaudio is doing (made it seem like they were manufacturing origina-style vf14s). 3 - priced it based on the inflated vf14 price 4 - went to the trouble of scraping the paint off the tube as though that was enough to call the dogs off its origins
All of the above are kind of sketchy business tactics in almost anybody's book. When they got called out for the Chinese stock they made an upgraded version to save face. This time they tried to defend their actions and continue to offer the product to those ignorant of the issue. In this day and age the least we can do is make it well known what the product is. If people still want it after that then no foul. I'm really glad Max is making his solution available too. It adds credibility to his design, and allows folks a path less sinister to keeping vintage mics alive.
Telefunken USA is still doing some admirable things in the microphone business, but this one was low, and Fletcher made some lame excuses for why they did what they did. Personally I always thought that guy was a forum bully anyway and for sure a better spokesperson could have handled things better.
Also, this is pretty old news, but as this thread has proven it wasn't exposed enough since people that should probably know still hadn't heard about it. Nothing wrong with sharing the truth.
|
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Nov 10, 2014 19:11:05 GMT -6
Wow. Did they really scrape the paint off the 408's? That's shady as hell.
|
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 10, 2014 19:37:55 GMT -6
Damn, that's just plain wrong.
|
|
|
|
Post by jeromemason on Nov 10, 2014 19:43:51 GMT -6
It's the same exact thing that Sony does with the tube for the C800g. They charge around it's either $75 or $150 I can't remember, but I bought a case of 50 for $10, I've still got tons of them. When I was sorting through to find ones quiet enough to use there were only maybe 5 or 6 that I had to throw out. So I've basically got 30 Sony C800g tubes that are the exact same thing they are selling. They take the paint off and spray their logo on the tubes as well. Now, granted, it took me a long ass time to find these tubes, but I eventually did and I probably need to sell them since I don't have a C800g anymore.
|
|
|
|
Post by scumbum on Nov 10, 2014 20:20:30 GMT -6
What we've learned from this: Eventually someone would figure out a viable substitute for VF14M tubes and the original Neumann U47/U48 microphones and clones could live on for a very very long time. Or just use an SM58 for a very similar sound. I've never done a shoot out with those mics , you think the sm58 sounds that close ? |
|
|
|
Post by scumbum on Nov 10, 2014 20:22:52 GMT -6
Tony - as an aside, I put a Klaus Heine modded U47, an M49, a Joly modded Oktava319, a STOCK $110 Chinese (Apex) 460, and Joly's modded 460 in a good shootout. A blind one. On a GS thread with hundreds of people weighing in on the results. Before announcing the mics origins, the stock Chinese mic and the Joly 460 were the front runners, so that $1400 Apex AK probably isn't such a bad mic, but I agree with you completely on the ethical level. When it comes to high end mic manufacturers, the smoke and mirrors is almost always present, and the amount of BS is palpable. BTW, the Joly 460 edged out the stock 460, but both handily tromped on the other mics. BTW, the people I rented them from AND Klaus were not happy with me. Neither was Capitol Records when I shot out their M49's, U48's C12, 44's, 77's, and 67's with cheaper alternatives for my enlightenment, enjoyment and mic purchasing decisions. Bottom line - the ONLY vintage mic I'd pay vintage prices for MIGHT be a KILLER M49. Everything else has options that are so close as to be virtually identical, With the possibility of the 67, which is NOT a must have mic for me. Funny isn't it..... You got a link to that thread ? Thanks for the tip about the apex 460 . |
|
|
|
Post by scumbum on Nov 10, 2014 20:30:55 GMT -6
I don't know about you, but i knew nothing about this, and apparently neither did a few others? Also, IMO, it totally matters what a company did in their past if you want to make good, informed decisions concerning their products as a potential customer in the future. i found this revelation to be flabbergasting and had to ask if anyone else was aware of this? OK…No problem at all Tony about bringing up the dark side of gear when we need to do so. Knowledge is power, or it used to be anyway. But if I can be completely honest here's what's bugging me about this thread. 1. I live in CT and I know the guys over at Telefunken USA. Not well, but enough to not want to see them lynched online. I use mics, I don't make them. So as to the specifics of tubes I admit it's over my head. 2. Other builders and makers that I admire have chimed in here in a really harsh way and it makes me question their motives, and frankly I don't want to do that. 3. I was recently asked by JK to start a thread on the new Ensemble and I did so a few days ago. 53 views, 1 like, zero replies. Yet this sort of red meat thread gets everybody in an uproar--sadly including me. 4. I thought that RGO was set up in part to be different than GS, yet here we are reading and responding to an old GS thread that was extremely poorly moderated. I truly like your threads and posts on this site Tony. But this one just hit a nerve on many levels for me. Don't feel like your Ensemble thread was ignored . Like JK said , how many people on this forum are in the market for one ? I read the thread but I'm not in the market looking to buy it so I didn't reply . |
|
