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Post by lpedrum on Nov 9, 2014 23:37:23 GMT -6
Am I missing something here? How is it that a thread from 2009 is prompting so much indignation?
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Post by kidvybes on Nov 9, 2014 23:40:49 GMT -6
I hope that clears it up." Not really for me. Sorry. I read all the above. I think my opinion is my own, but one I'll stick with. Like I said earlier, the smoke and mirrors is palpable.... And svart - I'm well aware of the name similarities, and the differences between the companies. Thx. ...BTW, you quoted Oliver, not me...those of us who were lucky enough to know Oliver personally know better than to link him and AMI/Tab-Funkenwerks to the funny business going down in Connecticut...two entirely different sets of ethics...but you know what they say about "opinions"... ...and, since you're well aware of the differences between the companies, than you already know it was Oliver who was trained and employed by the original AEG Telefunken company, and upon their shutting down operations, walked away with much of the original documentation and blueprints, massive tube inventory, tooling machinery and first-hand knowledge of original manufacturing techniques... |
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 9, 2014 23:41:32 GMT -6
Tony - as an aside, I put a Klaus Heine modded U47, an M49, a Joly modded Oktava319, a STOCK $110 Chinese (Apex) 460, and Joly's modded 460 in a good shootout. A blind one. On a GS thread with hundreds of people weighing in on the results. Before announcing the mics origins, the stock Chinese mic and the Joly 460 were the front runners, so that $1400 Apex AK probably isn't such a bad mic, but I agree with you completely on the ethical level. When it comes to high end mic manufacturers, the smoke and mirrors is almost always present, and the amount of BS is palpable. BTW, the Joly 460 edged out the stock 460, but both handily tromped on the other mics. BTW, the people I rented them from AND Klaus were not happy with me. Neither was Capitol Records when I shot out their M49's, U48's C12, 44's, 77's, and 67's with cheaper alternatives for my enlightenment, enjoyment and mic purchasing decisions. Bottom line - the ONLY vintage mic I'd pay vintage prices for MIGHT be a KILLER M49. Everything else has options that are so close as to be virtually identical, With the possibility of the 67, which is NOT a must have mic for me. Funny isn't it..... I hear you on this, the only thing is for me, i learned a while back that MOST internet shoot outs are not very useful, it's only when i live with a piece of gear for a bit do i really find out what it has/hasn't to offer. That said, i've shot out a matachung C12 with a TC capsule in it, against a modded 460 and a stock 460, the diffs were NOT small in person, and the matachung C12 won blind and in a handy fashion... so? |
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 9, 2014 23:47:25 GMT -6
Am I missing something here? How is it that a thread from 2009 is prompting so much indignation? I don't know about you, but i knew nothing about this, and apparently neither did a few others? Also, IMO, it totally matters what a company did in their past if you want to make good, informed decisions concerning their products as a potential customer in the future. i found this revelation to be flabbergasting and had to ask if anyone else was aware of this? |
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Post by kidvybes on Nov 10, 2014 0:01:20 GMT -6
...it's funny how this went down today...I was previously aware of the Saturn Sound VF14 replacement (which like the Tele USA version employs the 408a tube) and I was aware of Andreas Grosser's solid-state VF14 replacement (both of which have their fans as well as their haters)...but it was actually Shane/CAT5 that brought the Tele USA version to my attention today as we were discussing the RCA 408a as a superior substitute in the MK-47 circuit...Shane gave me 2 NOS RCAs to test and so far, after about 10 hours of burn-in, not so much as a hiss or crackle...the MK-47 sounds wonderful...
...so later today, while talking to Tony on the phone about the RCA's impressive performance, I casually passed along the info Shane had sent me about the VF14K employing the same $5 tube, and here we are...it's newly relevant because this masterful U47 clone designed by Max originally employed the same tube, albeit in a better circuit configuration...so how is it that one Tele VF14K replacement tube costs about as much as the entire original MK-47 build-kit including PSU?...(at least you get 2-408s tubes in the MK-47 kit!)...
...BTW, although this original debacle went down in 2009, it appears the VF14K is still available at $750 online and it's still got an active page on the Tele website...so not entirely old news...
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Post by lpedrum on Nov 10, 2014 0:17:26 GMT -6
Am I missing something here? How is it that a thread from 2009 is prompting so much indignation? I don't know about you, but i knew nothing about this, and apparently neither did a few others? Also, IMO, it totally matters what a company did in their past if you want to make good, informed decisions concerning their products as a potential customer in the future. i found this revelation to be flabbergasting and had to ask if anyone else was aware of this? OK…No problem at all Tony about bringing up the dark side of gear when we need to do so. Knowledge is power, or it used to be anyway. But if I can be completely honest here's what's bugging me about this thread. 1. I live in CT and I know the guys over at Telefunken USA. Not well, but enough to not want to see them lynched online. I use mics, I don't make them. So as to the specifics of tubes I admit it's over my head. 2. Other builders and makers that I admire have chimed in here in a really harsh way and it makes me question their motives, and frankly I don't want to do that. 3. I was recently asked by JK to start a thread on the new Ensemble and I did so a few days ago. 53 views, 1 like, zero replies. Yet this sort of red meat thread gets everybody in an uproar--sadly including me. 4. I thought that RGO was set up in part to be different than GS, yet here we are reading and responding to an old GS thread that was extremely poorly moderated. I truly like your threads and posts on this site Tony. But this one just hit a nerve on many levels for me. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2014 0:21:43 GMT -6
The VF14 market demanded a substitute that is a simple drop in, that looks like the original, and so it was a matter of time when someone comes to the idea of cramming a glass tube in the metal case.
Saturn and T-USA did that, and people were willing to pay.
I was aware of this since 2009, because it was a major discussion about how this could be ethic, especially at these prices.
BUT - people seem to be willing to pay for it still, the products did not disappear.
It is somehow insane, but people seem to pay as long as it works somehow AND LOOKS like the original - no matter, if this is actually degrading the real tube in this faster. They pay for the fake metal case and optics and don't care.
You can shake your head about it, but this is, what it is.
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Post by kidvybes on Nov 10, 2014 0:43:47 GMT -6
...yeah, not terribly unlike the market for brand new "distressed relic" guitars...they sound like and look like the originals, and carry with them some seriously inflated price-tags...brand-new-vintage: www.edroman.com/guitars/distressed-guitars.htm |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2014 1:17:23 GMT -6
Hahaha,
yeah! I had a good laugh seeing a maybe 24 year old guitarist in an interview at a convention, who explained how incredibly good his relic custom shop "masterbuilt" strat is. The strat looked like he had it from his father who threw it on the back of a pig transporter regularly.
As he dropped the pricing range i nearly dropped my coffee pot.
I am one of those guys who polishes his hardware. I don't pour acid over it to create rust.
I am so oldschool it hurts.
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Post by winetree on Nov 10, 2014 1:24:35 GMT -6
Owning a real Neumann U47, If the VF14 were to fail, I'd have one of two choices. To butcher the original tube mount and fit in a single or dual 408 tube(s), or use a direct pin compatible replacement? What would you do?  ? |
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 10, 2014 1:30:46 GMT -6
I don't know about you, but i knew nothing about this, and apparently neither did a few others? Also, IMO, it totally matters what a company did in their past if you want to make good, informed decisions concerning their products as a potential customer in the future. i found this revelation to be flabbergasting and had to ask if anyone else was aware of this? OK…No problem at all Tony about bringing up the dark side of gear when we need to do so. Knowledge is power, or it used to be anyway. But if I can be completely honest here's what's bugging me about this thread. 1. I live in CT and I know the guys over at Telefunken USA. Not well, but enough to not want to see them lynched online. I use mics, I don't make them. So as to the specifics of tubes I admit it's over my head. 2. Other builders and makers that I admire have chimed in here in a really harsh way and it makes me question their motives, and frankly I don't want to do that. 3. I was recently asked by JK to start a thread on the new Ensemble and I did so a few days ago. 53 views, 1 like, zero replies. Yet this sort of red meat thread gets everybody in an uproar--sadly including me. 4. I thought that RGO was set up in part to be different than GS, yet here we are reading and responding to an old GS thread that was extremely poorly moderated. I truly like your threads and posts on this site Tony. But this one just hit a nerve on many levels for me. Sorry bromee, Never intended to come off offensive, but I am a bit defensive as a consumer, if they came out and declared honestly what was, it would be a different story, but this kind of behavior should be known by all of us here at the serious level we consider ourselves, we should hold ourselves and manufacturers to a higher standard, I will never withhold info I find out about any manufacturer if it reveals intention to pull the wool over the eyes of my friends, and I hope no one else here would. I would also add, imo there is a diff between calling attention to something that is true, vs being nasty for no reason as in GS. The fact is they stuck a $1, 408 tube in a metal case, claimed vf14 equivalence, and charged trusting folks who believe in the name Telefunken $1,000! That to me is way beyond dishonest, I cannot apologize for calling it out. |
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 10, 2014 1:45:59 GMT -6
Owning a real Neumann U47, If the VF14 were to fail, I'd have one of two choices. To butcher the original tube mount and fit in a single or dual 408 tube(s), or use a direct pin compatible replacement? What would you do? ? I admitted from the perspective of an original, it would be mandatory to maintain the pin out. If I were u, I'd build my own new tube because I would be "Winetree DIY freak of extraordinaire"! 8) But that's not what I'm peeved about, it's the seeming dishonestly that's a problem imv. in all seriousness, u could build that urself, but would it perform well? I'm not sure the answer would be yes as 2 408s in parallel seems to be the right answer? |
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Post by levon on Nov 10, 2014 2:16:51 GMT -6
Andreas Grosser's FET 'tube' is directly interchangeable with the VF14 in the U47. Soundwise, it's extremely close, I heard both side by side and the only difference was the noise of the tube that the FET doesn't reproduce. If ever I want to have a real tube in my 47, I can just take out the FET and plug in a tube, simple as that.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2014 2:48:53 GMT -6
Owning a real Neumann U47, If the VF14 were to fail, I'd have one of two choices. To butcher the original tube mount and fit in a single or dual 408 tube(s), or use a direct pin compatible replacement? What would you do? ? I would use a socket adapter, so you install a 408a with these surrounding components like Saturn and T-USA use it and call it a day. The tube would last longer and you save a quite some bucks. EDIT: Tony was faster.... |
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Post by ioaudio on Nov 10, 2014 4:26:20 GMT -6
Also soon available, my VF14r:  |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2014 4:36:28 GMT -6
winetree: Hey, i guess this is one to go for you!
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 10, 2014 4:38:35 GMT -6
well it is also true that people get what they pay for and in this albeit older case it was "hoodwinked" caveat emptor; always, if it walks like a duck; etc., doesn't mean its a duck !
yes smallbutfine, I certainly trust max's builds !!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2014 4:39:39 GMT -6
Also soon available, my VF14r: Max, would you - personally - leave it open top to avoid heat problems and make the tubes last longer? BR, Martin |
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Post by ioaudio on Nov 10, 2014 5:47:34 GMT -6
Oh - yes - the steel tube on the right side is just for reference - no hiding of the glass tubes :-)
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Post by Ward on Nov 10, 2014 6:06:13 GMT -6
What we've learned from this: Eventually someone would figure out a viable substitute for VF14M tubes and the original Neumann U47/U48 microphones and clones could live on for a very very long time.
Or just use an SM58 for a very similar sound.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2014 6:50:32 GMT -6
 Oh yes. Wait....this is realgear...oops. 
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Post by ericn on Nov 10, 2014 7:40:30 GMT -6
Well if you consider the fact that the original Telefunken Mics were not made by Telefunken , They were a distributed, yoo could argue that Telefunken USA is acting in a historically correct manner!
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Post by kevinnyc on Nov 10, 2014 8:46:45 GMT -6
Hahaha, yeah! I had a good laugh seeing a maybe 24 year old guitarist in an interview at a convention, who explained how incredibly good his relic custom shop "masterbuilt" strat is. The strat looked like he had it from his father who threw it on the back of a pig transporter regularly. As he dropped the pricing range i nearly dropped my coffee pot. I am one of those guys who polishes his hardware. I don't pour acid over it to create rust. I am so oldschool it hurts. Couldn't agree more....all my guitars have been relicced the old fashioned way....same with my jeans. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 10, 2014 9:44:44 GMT -6
There are other pro audio forums on the internet? |
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 10, 2014 10:08:22 GMT -6
I don't know about you, but i knew nothing about this, and apparently neither did a few others? Also, IMO, it totally matters what a company did in their past if you want to make good, informed decisions concerning their products as a potential customer in the future. i found this revelation to be flabbergasting and had to ask if anyone else was aware of this? OK…No problem at all Tony about bringing up the dark side of gear when we need to do so. Knowledge is power, or it used to be anyway. But if I can be completely honest here's what's bugging me about this thread. 1. I live in CT and I know the guys over at Telefunken USA. Not well, but enough to not want to see them lynched online. I use mics, I don't make them. So as to the specifics of tubes I admit it's over my head. 2. Other builders and makers that I admire have chimed in here in a really harsh way and it makes me question their motives, and frankly I don't want to do that. 3. I was recently asked by JK to start a thread on the new Ensemble and I did so a few days ago. 53 views, 1 like, zero replies. Yet this sort of red meat thread gets everybody in an uproar--sadly including me. 4. I thought that RGO was set up in part to be different than GS, yet here we are reading and responding to an old GS thread that was extremely poorly moderated. I truly like your threads and posts on this site Tony. But this one just hit a nerve on many levels for me. So - I've just read as far as your post, lpedrum (I should probably read the whole thread before responding...but here I go)... Here's my opinion. I don't think there's anything wrong - at all - about posting this. Unless it's false information. If it is, it will be taken down. As far as RGO being set up to be different than GS - it is. This kind of thread is exactly the purpose of these forums. If TeleUSA is selling $5 tubes in a metal housing for 2000 % markup, it's not ILLEGAL, it's just a bit unethical. Obviously, there was a market that would bear it. Tele is also adding in "testing and research" into that markup. Now - if the truth of what is actually IN the thing comes out - the market may not bear the markup of the "VF14k". I - for one - would not buy one after seeing something like this. So far (as I have read), I don't see anything in this thread that has been out of line. As far as the Ensemble post - I appreciate you doing that. Take into consideration that in a community this small, the Ensemble might appeal to a small fraction of us. Unfortunately/fortunately, we don't have 200,000 members to post replies about it. |
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