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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 18, 2013 11:02:00 GMT -6
"Don't be an asshole" rule applies here...
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Post by tonycamphd on Sept 18, 2013 11:33:19 GMT -6
certainly not looking for ill feelings here, mjb is looking for quality conversion, if this guy is a boutiquey convertor guy, who can provide tools that sound great and happen to be cheap, then more power to him and us. The 2 guys i know who'v used these rigs, smallbutfine, and Jwilliams, both have very good things to say about them. That is potential good news for all of our wallets. Popman, i hope you get a chance to shoot one out(not with your gun either ), and report back your impressions. T
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Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 18, 2013 12:08:07 GMT -6
I'd love to hear your impressions if you do get a chance to try these popman.
The long story short is I really like what the Burl A/D does to final mixes. I want me some of that, but would like it to be more in the $300-$600 price range. I know I'm probably kidding myself, but every now and then someone really does come out with a fair priced giant killer. The Warm Audio WA12 comes to mind as a good example. It's between 2/3 and 1/2 the price of the competition, and sacrifices little, if anything. Their ToneBeast is a few dollars more, and adds lots of new features.
Perhaps the new BLA mod for my Apollo Duo would get me close enough. Since I'm in no rush, I'll sort it out over time. But if I could get something close to the Burl or a BLA Sparrow on the cheap, I might jump sooner than later.
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Post by tonycamphd on Sept 18, 2013 12:22:41 GMT -6
I'd love to hear your impressions if you do get a chance to try these popman. The long story short is I really like what the Burl A/D does to final mixes. I want me some of that, but would like it to be more in the $300-$600 price range. I know I'm probably kidding myself, but every now and then someone really does come out with a fair priced giant killer. The Warm Audio WA12 comes to mind as a good example. It's between 2/3 and 1/2 the price of the competition, and sacrifices little, if anything. Their ToneBeast is a few dollars more, and adds lots of new features. Perhaps the new BLA mod for my Apollo Duo would get me close enough. Since I'm in no rush, I'll sort it out over time. But if I could get something close to the Burl or a BLA Sparrow on the cheap, I might jump sooner than later. mjb, my suspicion is if you get one of the martins(anything accurate/transparent), and use a pair of warms/vp28's/missing links, to get your transformer color, you'll be right in the burl ballpark? To each his own, but i have absolutely no interest in a converter with a transformer built in line??? if i want transformer color, i'll add it in myself.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 18, 2013 12:49:46 GMT -6
Thanks Tony, I'll keep that in mind.
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Post by deehope on Sept 18, 2013 14:41:42 GMT -6
Does anyone know if they play nice with a mr816x?
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Post by popmann on Sept 18, 2013 15:48:01 GMT -6
That's a valid philosophy, Tony. And a clean loop PLUS a classA EQ would likely give some of that. But, is WAY more money than the Burl....so, also not a budget rec. In fact, he could run at 96k and not need new conversion at ALL to achieve that. All new chips for a decade have done is basically improve single rate performance (via better on chip filter design causing less phase shift). I've never personally mat a converter that I couldn't get along with at double sample rate.
But, I chimed in simply to explain that what MJB hears in that clip is not "better conversion". So, another reference type converter, no matter how new the chip isn't going to have that effect.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 18, 2013 17:53:11 GMT -6
Thanks for the clarification popman, I'm learning as I go and that's helpful.
So, you're saying it's the color of the Burl I'm most likely enjoying, not necessarily the conversion?
I do hear more detail when I've listened to some tracks done through the Burl. Would that be from the color emphasizing different, (better) frequencies?
Perhaps I'm just very jitter sensitive and the different converters have different amounts of jitter.
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Post by lolo on Sept 18, 2013 19:42:00 GMT -6
Keep the Capi VP28's in mind MJB. Add someting very special to the 2 Buss. Mine is stuck there
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Post by popmann on Sept 18, 2013 19:48:40 GMT -6
That is what I'm saying. I mean, to some degree, how do you separate them? But, I"m saying that no other converter using a simple inexpensive line amp and "newer chip" will get the sound of a classA line amp. I don't know that it's the best to call it color...it just is a sound that isn't achieved by the AD chip inside.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2013 20:45:45 GMT -6
Everyone talks about throwing the VP28s on the 2 Buss, but no one talks about the VC528s, which is their big brother. y'all ain't heard of that module?
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Post by tonycamphd on Sept 19, 2013 0:45:05 GMT -6
Everyone talks about throwing the VP28s on the 2 Buss, but no one talks about the VC528s, which is their big brother. y'all ain't heard of that module? you must have missed the part where i said MISSING LINKS 9 posts back saxman!!
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Post by tonycamphd on Sept 19, 2013 1:14:05 GMT -6
That is what I'm saying. I mean, to some degree, how do you separate them? But, I"m saying that no other converter using a simple inexpensive line amp and "newer chip" will get the sound of a classA line amp. I don't know that it's the best to call it color...it just is a sound that isn't achieved by the AD chip inside. I hear you popman, i still advocate clean and accurate, i'd have to believe, i can achieve a better transformer/color/line vibe from a VC528 or VP28 set at unity or ?, than a burl tranny can provide statically(i'd guess? don't know the burl well at all). I stand by the idea that it's so much easier to make a true and clean image flavored and colored to different degrees, than to make flavored and colored image true and clean, i like a clean canvas to start with, transformers also seem to shrink dynamic range in my experience, something i would never want in a converter. That being said, the burl could be the best thing ever, i don't know, i would love to give it a turn! The funny thing is, with my tube mics, ll76's, and capi vp28's, lc53 eq's as my preferences, I end up pretty fuzzy on a lot of things.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2013 9:08:00 GMT -6
Well, nowadays i would say a converter should be like a wire. Flat, clean, true. Especially a DAC, because you have to judge your final product without colour. Different approaches with ADCs. Some are made to smash signals at and do funny things to them. E.g. the Apogee soft clipping or transformers in front that can saturize. IF you like that sound - no problem with that. And of course you can put a good transformer directly in front of a converter chip in and it might sound very good and of course cannot be done cheap anymore, because of the transformers. I heard similar stuff about the Radar, but never heard or put a look under one's hood. If you like to use the ADCs like a tape machine, this might be for you... If not, you might like a wire-like ADC better.
Best regards, Martin
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Post by popmann on Sept 19, 2013 10:25:11 GMT -6
I do want to point out that in Cowboy's clip, the dynamic range was reduced from 21db to 20.5db between the Symphony and Burl. And the only actual saturation was at a -1.5dbfs peak. Which is the only moment in the entire track that Symphony sounded better, to my ear. But, I also would never have tracked a vocal peaking at -1.5dbfs. I think the oddball perception that it's somehow more "colored" is kind of pseudo science BS. The clip he did sounds more like a human being singing than the Symphony. What it doesn't have is "that weirdness" that has come since the switch to digital. The hollowness. Now, he didn't say what sample rate he did the test at...but, IME, double rate alleviates a lot of that.
Transparency has never been the goal. Good is the goal--transparency is a path to that. The Burl clip sounds more like a real voice to me than the Symphony. Therefore, I have no issue calling it the transparent one. So, I agree- I go for transparent, too.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2013 10:49:24 GMT -6
I think the oddball perception that it's somehow more "colored" is kind of pseudo science BS. Who said this? I didn't. I didn't even listen to the clips from Cowboy, because i have none of these converters for reference.... I talked about the Apogee that do clearly have a type of 'colour" when driven into clipping, as an example for another kind of AD approach, and that i heard similar from the Radar, which i cannot verify...
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Post by popmann on Sept 19, 2013 12:23:34 GMT -6
It's said over and over. You'd rather have transparent AD. I'm saying there's no such thing.
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Post by tonycamphd on Sept 19, 2013 13:52:36 GMT -6
It's said over and over. You'd rather have transparent AD. I'm saying there's no such thing. I'm saying there is, so now what? being a condescending absolutist is not warranted here, thats what GS is for, this is your opinion, mine is different, my digi 002 w/bla mods and fm clock sounds ridiculously transparent compared to the stock form, and most other so called high end converters i've heard, are you telling me i'm wrong?
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Post by popmann on Sept 19, 2013 16:46:17 GMT -6
Whatever, man. You obviously have some issue with me....they're just tools. Yes, I'm saying it's harder to do a meaningful test of "transparency" than most people are set up to do...and so claims of transparency are more truthfully "I like the sound of X converter better than Y"--which is also, end of the day the only thing that matters.
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 19, 2013 17:08:46 GMT -6
Here is the official "Let's Hug It Out" gif to warn of lockdown...
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Post by tonycamphd on Sept 19, 2013 18:14:45 GMT -6
Whatever, man. You obviously have some issue with me.... Really? you called my opinion "pseudo science bullshit" i don't need to explain beyond this? JK, i've said my bit, I'll leave it at that, this thread has some useful stuff on it, more peeps who have the martins will probably chime in to share their experiences, no need to lockdown. T
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Post by scumbum on Sept 26, 2013 14:56:30 GMT -6
So I just ordered the DAC with USB and Headphone Amp . Shipped it was $250 . Pretty awesome deal ! I love how it has a headphone output . I'm gonna love being able to check mixes through speakers and headphones with both signals running through a nice clean signal chain . On a side note , the power amp to your speakers IS VERY IMPORTANT ! My speaker amp just broke . Its's an older Lafayette vintage tube amp from I think the 60's . It sounds freakn Awesome ! Probably not the best choice for mixing because it colors the sound with it being tube and all . But its very enjoyable listening to music through it . For being tube its still VERY clear and you can hear lots of details in the mix . Anyways since it broke and needs to get fixed , I hooked up my Alesis power amp up to my NS10's . HOLY CRAP !!!! It sucks . So even with the new Ross Martin DAC on the way , if I still used this Alesis amp , things would still sound like crap . I just learned you can have the best D/A converter and good speakers , but if the power amp to the speakers is low quality , your screwed . Its way more important to invest in a nice high quality power amp first before you worry about D/A converters in your monitoring chain . With the Alesis in the chain , EVERYTHING almost sounds the same . I can't really hear any differences between mic pres and mics . Everything sounds like ass . Heres the vintage amp I have , I love this thing , Attachments:
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Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 26, 2013 16:17:10 GMT -6
Look around on Craigslist, you'll find even better vintage amps than the Lafayette, at bargain prices. I used to have a Lafayette amp with their Criterion speakers. Sounded pretty good with a turntable.
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Post by tonycamphd on Sept 26, 2013 16:21:37 GMT -6
Scum, congrats on the DAC, bummer on your amp, pick up an Adcom gfa 555(not the gfa555ll), you can scorem cheap on craigslist! they sound really good as is, and then when you get a couple extra bucks, throw it south to Jim Williams so he can make it better than really good Also, post up your impressions when you get that DAC, i'm counting on your feedback to make my final decision on whether to buy that thing or not....i'm counting on you...yes you scum....i'm totally serious..., i am pretty serious
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Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 26, 2013 17:55:52 GMT -6
Used to have an Adcom, it'll definitely outgun the Lafayette.
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