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Post by FM77 on Mar 19, 2024 13:09:15 GMT -6
Well let me tell you that after decades of tracking guitars in the realspace.. ITB is a godsend. Exactly 2 minutes after trying to get tone with an amp in a room and your ears are so blown out you can't tell the difference between notes.. Then you start moving the mic around and you can't even keep track of where it sounded best as you're running back and forth from cab to console. Sometimes "get the tone in the room" isn't all it's cracked up to be. Couple that with spending 30 minutes trying to find the crackling noise by going through all the cables and replugging them.. Yeah. When I want to sit down and work, thumbing through a menu is so much easier and less stressful. The death of music….instead of getting a good tone…use someone else’s preset…or if the singer is out of tune…use Autotune…. ?? Nah.
Presets have driven music creativity for many decades. It's not the preset (which can be quite excellent) but rather the individual use of them.
Technology has always defined popular music direction and inspiration.
It is well documented that presets from every major synth, drum machine, reverb units, effects processor etc are found on hits, hits and hits...and 1000s of records that we consider classics of most genres that use electronic technology.
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Post by svart on Mar 19, 2024 13:12:27 GMT -6
The death of music….instead of getting a good tone…use someone else’s preset…or if the singer is out of tune…use Autotune…. ?? Nah.
Presets have driven music creativity for many decades. It's not the preset (which can be quite excellent) but rather the individual use of them.
Technology has always defined popular music direction and inspiration.
It is well documented that presets from every major synth, drum machine, reverb units, effects processor etc are found on hits, hits and hits...and 1000s of records that we consider classics of most genres that use electronic technology.
One could say that watching videos or reading articles about artists/musicians/producers/mixers and buying a pedal/amp/guitar/rack unit/console/etc and then trying to recreate a tone you heard is the same as having a "preset".. It just takes a lot more time, money and energy. |
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Post by easyrider on Mar 19, 2024 13:22:35 GMT -6
The death of music….instead of getting a good tone…use someone else’s preset…or if the singer is out of tune…use Autotune…. ?? Nah.
Presets have driven music creativity for many decades. It's not the preset (which can be quite excellent) but rather the individual use of them.
Technology has always defined popular music direction and inspiration.
It is well documented that presets from every major synth, drum machine, reverb units, effects processor etc are found on hits, hits and hits...and 1000s of records that we consider classics of most genres that use electronic technology.
And now? We have 4 chord dirge….with Autotune wallpaper Muzak… Anyway I don’t wish this thread to turn into a amp sim v real amp debate…I’ve got amp sims aplenty…every amp in Amplitube 5 all PA and UAD ones…I can get quicker more satisfying results with my board and my amps…. use whatever you like… |
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Post by FM77 on Mar 19, 2024 13:25:40 GMT -6
?? Nah.
Presets have driven music creativity for many decades. It's not the preset (which can be quite excellent) but rather the individual use of them.
Technology has always defined popular music direction and inspiration.
It is well documented that presets from every major synth, drum machine, reverb units, effects processor etc are found on hits, hits and hits...and 1000s of records that we consider classics of most genres that use electronic technology.
One could say that watching videos or reading articles about artists/musicians/producers/mixers and buying a pedal/amp/guitar/rack unit/console/etc and then trying to recreate a tone you heard is the same as having a "preset".. It just takes a lot more time, money and energy. And the presets from gear that folks try to emulate when they don't own the gear. H3000 preset 515 'Magic Air' or PCM 70 'Tiled Room' come to mind.
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Post by easyrider on Mar 19, 2024 13:28:15 GMT -6
One could say that watching videos or reading articles about artists/musicians/producers/mixers and buying a pedal/amp/guitar/rack unit/console/etc and then trying to recreate a tone you heard is the same as having a "preset".. It just takes a lot more time, money and energy. And the presets from gear that folks try to emulate when they don't own the gear. H3000 preset 515 'Magic Air' or PCM 70 'Tiled Room' come to mind.
Using a reverb preset…is not the same….but I’ll quite happily humour you…  |
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Post by FM77 on Mar 19, 2024 13:33:56 GMT -6
?? Nah.
Presets have driven music creativity for many decades. It's not the preset (which can be quite excellent) but rather the individual use of them.
Technology has always defined popular music direction and inspiration.
It is well documented that presets from every major synth, drum machine, reverb units, effects processor etc are found on hits, hits and hits...and 1000s of records that we consider classics of most genres that use electronic technology.
And now? We have 4 chord dirge….with Autotune wallpaper Muzak… Anyway I don’t wish this thread to turn into a amp sim v real amp debate…ive got amp sims coming aplenty…every amp in Amplitube 5 all,PA and UAD ones…I can get quicker more satisfying results with my board and my amps…. use whatever you like… I agree about the debate, I personally I enjoy both very much. Speaking only for myself, the music I listen to is neither dirge or wallpaper Muzak. I was only responding to your comment about presets killing creativity which I don't relate to as I find little evidence of it in professional audio or with professional musicians.
FM
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Post by theshea on Mar 19, 2024 13:35:12 GMT -6
my point is: i play different trough a real amp and pedals. and thats VERY important to me. thats why i do the work with miking an amp, getting the sound in the room. also, when touching the guitar sound too much in the mixing phase it can sound fake pretty soon. sonetimes you want that, most of the times you don‘t want that.
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Post by FM77 on Mar 19, 2024 13:41:31 GMT -6
And the presets from gear that folks try to emulate when they don't own the gear. H3000 preset 515 'Magic Air' or PCM 70 'Tiled Room' come to mind.
Using a reverb preset…is not the same….but I’ll quite happily humour you… No thanks.
I'd rather you make an actual case for it. Presets are presets. They weren't your creativity, you simply used them as is or a slight variation. Same with synths, drum machines, guitar processors, multi-effects ad on and on.
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Post by smashlord on Mar 19, 2024 13:41:48 GMT -6
Amp sims have certainly come a LONG way, but every time I get one sounding good, I mic up whatever its trying to emulate and its like "Ohhhhhhhhh". For whatever reason, the amp always just sounds like "more" and is easier to get happening in the mix.
I had a client send me tracks this week to mix, saying he loved his Neural plug. It was trying to emulate a modded Fender of some sort pushed with a TS9 and SD-1, so I re-amped his DI through said pedals and a BF Deluxe Reverb I got here through a closed back cab. He didn't find the plug quite as impressive after!
For me, its the 200-400 hz range that never sounds quite right on an amp sim. Maybe its because they don't emulate cab and room resonance quite like the real thing....
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Post by easyrider on Mar 19, 2024 13:45:32 GMT -6
Using a reverb preset…is not the same….but I’ll quite happily humour you… No thanks.
I'd rather you make an actual case for it. Presets are presets. They weren't your creativity, you simply used them as is or a slight variation. Same with synths, drum machines, guitar processors, multi-effects ad on and on.
When I load up a Lexicon PCM reverb preset on my 1972 Hayman snare drum recorded live in my drum room…I see this as totally different than loading an amp sim on a DI track. |
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Post by thehightenor on Mar 19, 2024 13:49:56 GMT -6
Well let me tell you that after decades of tracking guitars in the realspace.. ITB is a godsend. Exactly 2 minutes after trying to get tone with an amp in a room and your ears are so blown out you can't tell the difference between notes.. Then you start moving the mic around and you can't even keep track of where it sounded best as you're running back and forth from cab to console. Sometimes "get the tone in the room" isn't all it's cracked up to be. Couple that with spending 30 minutes trying to find the crackling noise by going through all the cables and replugging them.. Yeah. When I want to sit down and work, thumbing through a menu is so much easier and less stressful. I have my cab and mics in a separate room and can crank them to gig volume .... that's laying down tone! Then in the comfort of my control room I hear the guitar sitting perfectly in the mix as I track monitoring on my ATC 25's I got the idea from Tim Pierce and it works brilliantly. I do use amp sims for demo arranging sessions and guitar practice and clients on limited budgets. But my stuff always get real amps recorded properly - it's far more soulful and immediate sounding to my ears, I was going to say "real" sounding but I guess that's axiomatic  |
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Post by svart on Mar 19, 2024 13:50:58 GMT -6
Amp sims have certainly come a LONG way, but every time I get one sounding good, I mic up whatever its trying to emulate and its like "Ohhhhhhhhh". For whatever reason, the amp always just sounds like "more" and is easier to get happening in the mix. I had a client send me tracks this week to mix, saying he loved his Neural plug. It was trying to emulate a modded Fender of some sort pushed with a TS9 and SD-1, so I re-amped his DI through said pedals and a BF Deluxe Reverb I got here through a closed back cab. He didn't find the plug quite as impressive after! For me, its the 200-400 hz range that never sounds quite right on an amp sim. Maybe its because they don't emulate cab and room resonance quite like the real thing.... I dunno, I think they do the job just fine. Had a guy send me a bunch of JCM800 tracks and they were so muddy they were unusable, but cutting the lows made them shrill and no better.. Luckly there were some DI tracks and I used the ML jcm800 plug to get a great tone without the muddiness. I used a tiny bit of the original tracks just because, but they were turned down really low. Dude was over the moon with how it turned out and kept going on and on about how amps sounded so much better than sims.. |
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Post by easyrider on Mar 19, 2024 13:56:33 GMT -6
Amp sims have certainly come a LONG way, but every time I get one sounding good, I mic up whatever its trying to emulate and its like "Ohhhhhhhhh". For whatever reason, the amp always just sounds like "more" and is easier to get happening in the mix. I had a client send me tracks this week to mix, saying he loved his Neural plug. It was trying to emulate a modded Fender of some sort pushed with a TS9 and SD-1, so I re-amped his DI through said pedals and a BF Deluxe Reverb I got here through a closed back cab. He didn't find the plug quite as impressive after! For me, its the 200-400 hz range that never sounds quite right on an amp sim. Maybe its because they don't emulate cab and room resonance quite like the real thing.... I dunno, I think they do the job just fine. Had a guy send me a bunch of JCM800 tracks and they were so muddy they were unusable, but cutting the lows made them shrill and no better.. Luckly there were some DI tracks and I used the ML jcm800 plug to get a great tone without the muddiness. I used a tiny bit of the original tracks just because, but they were turned down really low. Dude was over the moon with how it turned out and kept going on and on about how amps sounded so much better than sims.. I would just record the amp properly first…a badly recorded amp is a badly recorded amp… |
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Post by svart on Mar 19, 2024 13:59:19 GMT -6
I dunno, I think they do the job just fine. Had a guy send me a bunch of JCM800 tracks and they were so muddy they were unusable, but cutting the lows made them shrill and no better.. Luckly there were some DI tracks and I used the ML jcm800 plug to get a great tone without the muddiness. I used a tiny bit of the original tracks just because, but they were turned down really low. Dude was over the moon with how it turned out and kept going on and on about how amps sounded so much better than sims.. I would just record the amp properly first…a badly recorded amp is a badly recorded amp… The problem is that a lot of people don't *know* what a good recording tone is. They like the ball-shaking volume in the room and they're conditioned to believe that it has to be LOUD to sound good. More often than not, a good tone for recording a raucous amp like this is barely above talking volume. Anyway, have you ever actually tried to talk a guitarist into tracking with low volume who has never done it before? It's harder than getting a singer to not hit the vape between every take. |
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Post by FM77 on Mar 19, 2024 14:04:53 GMT -6
I would just record the amp properly first…a badly recorded amp is a badly recorded amp… The problem is that a lot of people don't *know* what a good recording tone is. They like the ball-shaking volume in the room and they're conditioned to believe that it has to be LOUD to sound good. More often than not, a good tone for recording a raucous amp like this is barely above talking volume. Anyway, have you ever actually tried to talk a guitarist into tracking with low volume who has never done it before? It's harder than getting a singer to not hit the vape between every take. A Fender champ is on more classic rock albums than many know. It's the not so secret 5w secret of great classic rock tones.
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Post by Dan on Mar 19, 2024 14:05:15 GMT -6
Amp sims have certainly come a LONG way, but every time I get one sounding good, I mic up whatever its trying to emulate and its like "Ohhhhhhhhh". For whatever reason, the amp always just sounds like "more" and is easier to get happening in the mix. I had a client send me tracks this week to mix, saying he loved his Neural plug. It was trying to emulate a modded Fender of some sort pushed with a TS9 and SD-1, so I re-amped his DI through said pedals and a BF Deluxe Reverb I got here through a closed back cab. He didn't find the plug quite as impressive after! For me, its the 200-400 hz range that never sounds quite right on an amp sim. Maybe its because they don't emulate cab and room resonance quite like the real thing.... I dunno, I think they do the job just fine. Had a guy send me a bunch of JCM800 tracks and they were so muddy they were unusable, but cutting the lows made them shrill and no better.. Luckly there were some DI tracks and I used the ML jcm800 plug to get a great tone without the muddiness. I used a tiny bit of the original tracks just because, but they were turned down really low. Dude was over the moon with how it turned out and kept going on and on about how amps sounded so much better than sims.. i just used vintage warmer to get a Swedish black metal tone off a recording of a too clean transistor amp last weekend. Vintage warmer took me a minute to dial in and sounded perfect. Maybe if the guitarist had a boutique modern distortion pedal it would’ve been better but I avoided the nastiness of plugin emulations and the tonal deficiencies of classic pedals pretty easily. |
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Post by Dan on Mar 19, 2024 14:10:02 GMT -6
I would just record the amp properly first…a badly recorded amp is a badly recorded amp… The problem is that a lot of people don't *know* what a good recording tone is. They like the ball-shaking volume in the room and they're conditioned to believe that it has to be LOUD to sound good. More often than not, a good tone for recording a raucous amp like this is barely above talking volume. Anyway, have you ever actually tried to talk a guitarist into tracking with low volume who has never done it before? It's harder than getting a singer to not hit the vape between every take. sunn amps kill me now. the last record I mixed recorded with sunn amps, I had to ring out all the feedback I could, basically reamp already miced and recorded cabinets with a different amp sim for each part to differentiate them and make them audible. |
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Post by easyrider on Mar 19, 2024 14:16:22 GMT -6
Zappa used a Pig Nose…That lead solo tone fifty fifty is awsome!
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Post by smashlord on Mar 19, 2024 15:21:06 GMT -6
Amp sims have certainly come a LONG way, but every time I get one sounding good, I mic up whatever its trying to emulate and its like "Ohhhhhhhhh". For whatever reason, the amp always just sounds like "more" and is easier to get happening in the mix. I had a client send me tracks this week to mix, saying he loved his Neural plug. It was trying to emulate a modded Fender of some sort pushed with a TS9 and SD-1, so I re-amped his DI through said pedals and a BF Deluxe Reverb I got here through a closed back cab. He didn't find the plug quite as impressive after! For me, its the 200-400 hz range that never sounds quite right on an amp sim. Maybe its because they don't emulate cab and room resonance quite like the real thing.... I dunno, I think they do the job just fine. Had a guy send me a bunch of JCM800 tracks and they were so muddy they were unusable, but cutting the lows made them shrill and no better.. Luckly there were some DI tracks and I used the ML jcm800 plug to get a great tone without the muddiness. I used a tiny bit of the original tracks just because, but they were turned down really low. Dude was over the moon with how it turned out and kept going on and on about how amps sounded so much better than sims.. A poorly set and recorded amp will always be a poorly set and recorded amp. I was assuming we are comparing using a sim and an amp dialed in and captured by a pro. Left to their own devices, who knows what guitarists will dial in... usually something super scooped with too much or too little gain. I explain to artists that its often false economy to just record a track themselves, not because the have inferior gear, but because we aren't together making judgements. An experienced engineer can help them dial in a sound that will slide into a mix with little fuss and everyone can move on with life as opposed to sending 10 files back and forth. This also happens with sims, btw, if the client decides to commit them. Tracks with too heavy of ambient effects, too much gain, too muddy, etc.. etc... The 2203 is probably my favorite amp of all time and I'll admit its finicky one... it can sound simultaneously pointy and scooped with the wrong speaker. Like all early Marshalls, it has a confusing tone stack where the treble knob is actually a frequency selector for the mid knob (which controls the cut/boost). IMO, it needs something like a TS9 or SD-1 to give it some of the honky mids so you can then dial up the mids on the amp, which tend to accentuate the pick attack. Without the boost, its harsh and muddy all at the same time, depending on the guitar. |
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Post by thehightenor on Mar 19, 2024 16:55:39 GMT -6
The problem is that a lot of people don't *know* what a good recording tone is. They like the ball-shaking volume in the room and they're conditioned to believe that it has to be LOUD to sound good. More often than not, a good tone for recording a raucous amp like this is barely above talking volume. Anyway, have you ever actually tried to talk a guitarist into tracking with low volume who has never done it before? It's harder than getting a singer to not hit the vape between every take. A Fender champ is on more classic rock albums than many know. It's the not so secret 5w secret of great classic rock tones.
I love that little amp - sounds great. They’re all so different. I also love recording my Fender Princeton, another great recording amp. Another critical thing about real amps. True zero latency. Mics, inches away from cab in a guitar room then monitoring on studio monitors - the feel is perfect. Sims always have that slight spongy playing into custard feeling that just unsettles the groove slightly. These things matter, when trying to make a great record. |
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Post by FM77 on Mar 19, 2024 17:21:05 GMT -6
A Fender champ is on more classic rock albums than many know. It's the not so secret 5w secret of great classic rock tones.
I love that little amp - sounds great. They’re all so different. I also love recording my Fender Princeton, another great recording amp. Another critical thing about real amps. True zero latency. Mics, inches away from cab in a guitar room then monitoring on studio monitors - the feel is perfect. Sims always have that slight spongy playing into custard feeling that just unsettles the groove slightly. These things matter, when trying to make a great record. Yeah man, agreed. Things matter! What those things are, vary from person to person, but an intent for a standard of excellence on your own terms is a must.
I have never been able to use plugins at all, but I do alot of guitar sessions and I do really enjoy the BOSS GT-1000 for clean tones.
It is a stunning box and the feel is excellent. (For classic roots, '60s '70s '80s clean)
The latency is nearly non-existent which really helps the creative flow and feeling. It is the lowest latency of any modeler currently in production as far as I know.
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Post by easyrider on Mar 20, 2024 5:22:49 GMT -6
I also dig the sound I’m recording is my 1974 champ..in my room…using my mics and setup and my choices…
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Post by ninworks on Mar 20, 2024 6:18:11 GMT -6
The sound in the room is one thing but the sound in the track is entirely another. As long as the part and the sound work with everything else I don't really care what generated it. I've been recording guitars since the mid 70's so doing it old-school isn't lost on me.
I've been using modelers since their inception. Much of the time I use one because it's just easier than setting up an amp and mic to get the sound to where it fits into the track. I've never been one to use software amp simulators simply because I know the modelers so well I'm fast on them. I don't want to tackle another learning curve. Besides, I have about a dozen sounds saved into the modeler that I have made and modified, and modified, and modified, and modified so, it doesn't take me long to find something useful. I may have to tweak a chosen sound a little for the particular track but that doesn't take me long. I can usually find something that works to my satisfaction in about 5 minutes or less. Tuning a 12 string takes that long.
Still, there is nothing like using a real amp. The fun-factor is real and when the speaker is pushing a lot of air there's nothing like it. I still do it but not as often as I used to. I love it to this day but modelers are just too damn convenient.
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Post by christopher on Mar 20, 2024 10:07:37 GMT -6
I also dig the sound I’m recording is my 1974 champ..in my room…using my mics and setup and my choices… I noticed the front panel wires plugged in on the DPX. Seems ideal for a quick plug and play situation. Interesting there’s a headphone out? I bet that sounds great to monitor |
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Post by nicksteinborn on Mar 20, 2024 13:36:53 GMT -6
At the end of the day, whatever gets you inspired gets you inspired. I play 100+ shows a year with a Helix live and I've spent way too many hours trying to learn all it's quirks, but I still tend to use amps in the studio. My bands last record, we used like 30 amps just because we could. Ranging from a newer Princeton to a '60s Vox Cambridge to a Sunn Concert Lead to my Top Hat Emplexador to one of Joe Barresi's Wizards along with a pile of other amps. Still had some Helix tones on the record. I'd also argue that sometimes those plugin or modeler tones can be just the thing for overdubs or a lead you want to stand out. I do feel like the Brainworx, Amplitube, and UA sims are all kind of old tech these days. Helix, Neural, and Axe FX seem to be the gold standard for modeling if you're not into Neural Amp Modeler or Tonex or Kemper for the profiling thing. STL Tonehub is pretty cool too. I think the biggest issue with sims are the cabs. Can't seem get that natural sounding air that you get from a mic'd cab and it just gets harsh. That said, I'm lazy and probably going to grab the Helix or a plug if I'm just trying to sit down and be creative.
I have my Helix set up like a pedalboard so I can just sit down and rip if I want. The only downside is I feel like it doesn't blend tones as well? Like the delays and reverbs don't mesh with the dry like my Strymons or Neunaber did. And the RAT and muff tones are a bit off. But it makes touring quite a bit easier not having to deal with rentals internationally.
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