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Post by thehightenor on Mar 20, 2024 15:16:12 GMT -6
The sound in the room is one thing but the sound in the track is entirely another. As long as the part and the sound work with everything else I don't really care what generated it. I've been recording guitars since the mid 70's so doing it old-school isn't lost on me. I've been using modelers since their inception. Much of the time I use one because it's just easier than setting up an amp and mic to get the sound to where it fits into the track. I've never been one to use software amp simulators simply because I know the modelers so well I'm fast on them. I don't want to tackle another learning curve. Besides, I have about a dozen sounds saved into the modeler that I have made and modified, and modified, and modified, and modified so, it doesn't take me long to find something useful. I may have to tweak a chosen sound a little for the particular track but that doesn't take me long. I can usually find something that works to my satisfaction in about 5 minutes or less. Tuning a 12 string takes that long. Still, there is nothing like using a real amp. The fun-factor is real and when the speaker is pushing a lot of air there's nothing like it. I still do it but not as often as I used to. I love it to this day but modelers are just too damn convenient. Since when was making great records a “convenient” process  Just saying. |
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Post by easyrider on Mar 20, 2024 15:36:28 GMT -6
I also dig the sound I’m recording is my 1974 champ..in my room…using my mics and setup and my choices… I noticed the front panel wires plugged in on the DPX. Seems ideal for a quick plug and play situation. Interesting there’s a headphone out? I bet that sounds great to monitor It’s a killer unit. |
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Post by ninworks on Mar 20, 2024 15:41:00 GMT -6
The sound in the room is one thing but the sound in the track is entirely another. As long as the part and the sound work with everything else I don't really care what generated it. I've been recording guitars since the mid 70's so doing it old-school isn't lost on me. I've been using modelers since their inception. Much of the time I use one because it's just easier than setting up an amp and mic to get the sound to where it fits into the track. I've never been one to use software amp simulators simply because I know the modelers so well I'm fast on them. I don't want to tackle another learning curve. Besides, I have about a dozen sounds saved into the modeler that I have made and modified, and modified, and modified, and modified so, it doesn't take me long to find something useful. I may have to tweak a chosen sound a little for the particular track but that doesn't take me long. I can usually find something that works to my satisfaction in about 5 minutes or less. Tuning a 12 string takes that long. Still, there is nothing like using a real amp. The fun-factor is real and when the speaker is pushing a lot of air there's nothing like it. I still do it but not as often as I used to. I love it to this day but modelers are just too damn convenient. Since when was making great records a “convenient” process Just saying. Whenever the convenience disrupts the creative process the least. Who said I make "Great" records?  |
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Post by thehightenor on Mar 21, 2024 1:58:04 GMT -6
Since when was making great records a “convenient” process Just saying. Whenever the convenience disrupts the creative process the least. Who said I make "Great" records? I agree regarding flow, that’s why I use sims or a boss katana when I’m writing and arranging. But then it comes to tracking and at this point it’s not about creativity as such (that’s been done) it’s about performance and now the tools you use really matter. I’m sure you do make great records |
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Post by easyrider on Mar 21, 2024 2:43:40 GMT -6
I’m getting tired of digital processing. I’m lazy.
I want to walk into my studio space with my acoustic guitar. Track a guitar part and vocal and have it as close as I can to sounding like a record using an analog front end. Same with electric guitar. Have the amp miked up ready 24/7 and record. No choosing tone after that fact using amp sim.
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Post by christophert on Mar 21, 2024 4:11:48 GMT -6
Good player
Good amp
Good preamp
Good mic and position.
Done - next album.
Future choices are usually the enemy - where no one commits.
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Post by ninworks on Mar 21, 2024 4:32:03 GMT -6
Whenever the convenience disrupts the creative process the least. Who said I make "Great" records? I agree regarding flow, that’s why I use sims or a boss katana when I’m writing and arranging. But then it comes to tracking and at this point it’s not about creativity as such (that’s been done) it’s about performance and now the tools you use really matter. I’m sure you do make great records I'm usually recording just me so the recording, writing, and arranging processes are often all happening at once. The rest of the time I am usually playing and tracking guitar parts for others and the immediacy of the creative process mostly happens after all the gear is already set up. That scenario is a bit more forgiving. ...and thank you for the vote of confidence about the quality of my records. |
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Post by Dan on Mar 21, 2024 8:26:59 GMT -6
I’m getting tired of digital processing. I’m lazy. I want to walk into my studio space with my acoustic guitar. Track a guitar part and vocal and have it as close as I can to sounding like a record using an analog front end. Same with electric guitar. Have the amp miked up ready 24/7 and record. No choosing tone after that fact using amp sim. how it sounds in the room will not be how it sounds on the record. the raw recording of the guitar will not be how it sounds in the mix. in the mix, a guitar might be filtered, telephoney, thin, middy, or obviously eqed soloed but sound great when heard with everything else all of the “swing” from the amp moving the air in the room causes nutty recordings from the proximity effects of cardioid mics like sm57 meaning the tracks must be heavily eqed, processed, or use impedance tricks to thin out the recorded track massively in a way guitar players aren’t happy with in their monitoring mix half the time Unless your band is playing all at once, what comes off the board will not be how it sounds in the mix. Half hearteningly processing it on the way in to control the mud or noises but still please the guitar player in his monitoring mix (“muh tone!”) will often just make it worse because more must be done later. |
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Post by ninworks on Mar 21, 2024 9:41:11 GMT -6
I’m getting tired of digital processing. I’m lazy. I want to walk into my studio space with my acoustic guitar. Track a guitar part and vocal and have it as close as I can to sounding like a record using an analog front end. Same with electric guitar. Have the amp miked up ready 24/7 and record. No choosing tone after that fact using amp sim. how it sounds in the room will not be how it sounds on the record. the raw recording of the guitar will not be how it sounds in the mix. in the mix, a guitar might be filtered, telephoney, thin, middy, or obviously eqed soloed but sound great when heard with everything else all of the “swing” from the amp moving the air in the room causes nutty recordings from the proximity effects of cardioid mics like sm57 meaning the tracks must be heavily eqed, processed, or use impedance tricks to thin out the recorded track massively in a way guitar players aren’t happy with in their monitoring mix half the time Unless your band is playing all at once, what comes off the board will not be how it sounds in the mix. Half hearteningly processing it on the way in to control the mud or noises but still please the guitar player in his monitoring mix (“muh tone!”) will often just make it worse because more must be done later. My point precisely! |
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Post by christopher on Mar 21, 2024 12:09:31 GMT -6
Rock/metal I always need EQ. Other genres, ribbon mic 1-3 feet back I’m not asking much of anything mix-wise. And honestly, tube mic in Fig8 beat my fatheads, so I stopped using them. U87 is also killer for more “mtv” tone ..Now that said, plenty of times I’ll record and go WTF at the thin nasally recording- a quick low shelf / high adjust and I’m back to where I normally am. It’s so quick I forget that I do that probably half the time.. Depends on the situation I guess?
Amp sims it’s like ..how do I un-do this unreal processed tone so it sounds more like an amp with a mic on it? When I get back to amp-mic tone, ok I can get a sound from there. Boosting is how I normally dial a tone, most sims are already blasted, boosting more turns into a weird “zing” thing that I spend time fighting
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Post by Dan on Mar 21, 2024 13:29:42 GMT -6
Rock/metal I always need EQ. Other genres, ribbon mic 1-3 feet back I’m not asking much of anything mix-wise. And honestly, tube mic in Fig8 beat my fatheads, so I stopped using them. U87 is also killer for more “mtv” tone ..Now that said, plenty of times I’ll record and go WTF at the thin nasally recording- a quick low shelf / high adjust and I’m back to where I normally am. It’s so quick I forget that I do that probably half the time.. Depends on the situation I guess? Amp sims it’s like ..how do I un-do this unreal processed tone so it sounds more like an amp with a mic on it? When I get back to amp-mic tone, ok I can get a sound from there. Boosting is how I normally dial a tone, most sims are already blasted, boosting more turns into a weird “zing” thing that I spend time fighting most guitar recordings need filters, usually some eq, and some saturation. Doesn’t matter what genre. Blues dads with the ice pick mids and death metal guys with the misconceived fuzz pedals into high gain setups are the worst. They’re getting irradiated. Amp sims aren’t really worse than a 5150 or jcm900 or a ton of modern tube amps that suck and sound grey, roasted, or shrill highs because of tube quality. The notes often don’t come through. You might as well use a plug or a modeler and skip the noise. Sure there are amps out there that sound cool and are fun to play through but they’re unnecessary and often very expensive. If you want some smoothness, shove something warm after it. It doesn’t have to be expensive. Most things from Art, the expensive yellow FMR PBC-6A, or the Drawer 1960 or 1970 something series will work fine and usually better than something higher fidelity. Even something really basic like a dbx 500 series something will take the highs off and brown things up with its junky dbx circuitry. ITB there are one stop solutions like SDRR2 tube mode and many of them are cheap and free. Softube is giving away the vca comp that sounds extreme and cool. Tape plugs are the ass saver except for Kramer Tape, which might as well be a pedal. 7.5 ips and watch the high end nasties go away. If that doesn’t work, use a cassette plug or some stunt configuration in U-he Satin or something. |
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Post by chessparov on Mar 21, 2024 21:43:14 GMT -6
Grasshopper asks...
How do you like the PSP's?
Both in general.
And stuff like Vintage Warmer/Saturator/Their "Strips"?
Thanks! Chris
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Post by Dan on Mar 21, 2024 22:20:57 GMT -6
Grasshopper asks... How do you like the PSP's? Both in general. And stuff like Vintage Warmer/Saturator/Their "Strips"? Thanks! Chris i love infinistrip 60s pre. It’s so warm and woody. The 12-bit adc is beyond cool. Vintage warmer sounds like gear that’s breaking up in a cool way like decapitator if better because decapitator is best as an overdrive of sorts while vintage warmer sounds like a clipper / break up and sounds better than overdriving specific emulations into the red. It just does. It sounds more analog than overdriving any ssl, neve, or api plugin to me. Even the fuse audio labs stuff and Tupe can often be driven into the red but when it breaks up in tonal content, it sounds like crap. Vintage warmer doesn’t. Vintage warmer sounds cool. Even the ltl silver bullet plug. Like the a and hitmaker 4000 have a sweet spot where everything gets bigger and better but beyond that, it shits the bed like Amber Heard while vintage warmer is just the breakup and keeps it cool like a hot chick in her 40s with no kids who does stuff 😎 |
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Post by thehightenor on Mar 22, 2024 1:40:10 GMT -6
Back to building a hardware front end! One thing I’ve noticed about tracking with great hardware, real amps, real instruments, is when it comes to mixing you can have a great sounding mix with just faders and pan pots. You gotta capture the magic sauce at the source Then if you have to use plug-ins - you’ll get a lot more action out of them. IME plug-ins aren’t very good at musical sounding saturation or believable richness of tone. It’s best (if possible) to capture as much of that at the tracking stage as possible - especially if you’re then forced to stay ITB. |
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Post by easyrider on Mar 22, 2024 4:02:40 GMT -6
Back to building a hardware front end! One thing I’ve noticed about tracking with great hardware, real amps, real instruments, is when it comes to mixing you can have a great sounding mix with just faders and pan pots. You gotta capture the magic sauce at the source Then if you have to use plug-ins - you’ll get a lot more action out of them. IME plug-ins aren’t very good at musical sounding saturation or believable richness of tone. It’s best (if possible) to capture as much of that at the tracking stage as possible - especially if you’re then forced to stay ITB. This short doc that inspired me…is great BTW 37 mins in I don't have this level of gear but what Paul Stacey says at 37 mins onwards resonates with me. |
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Post by FM77 on Mar 22, 2024 7:30:45 GMT -6
IME plug-ins aren’t very good at musical sounding saturation or believable richness of tone. ?? - are referring to instrument tracking? Or in general? Obviously countless world class mixing and mastering engineers don't agree with this. But speaking only for myself, as a bit of an analog gear head, I am often very impressed in the digital domain in regards to EQ richness, depth or saturation. |
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Post by thehightenor on Mar 22, 2024 8:23:57 GMT -6
IME plug-ins aren’t very good at musical sounding saturation or believable richness of tone. ?? - are referring to instrument tracking? Or in general? Obviously countless world class mixing and mastering engineers don't agree with this. But speaking only for myself, as a bit of an analog gear head, I am often very impressed in the digital domain in regards to EQ richness, depth or saturation. Well, countless "world class" mixing engineers do what a lot of us do and mix to a budget and also convenience of recalls for clients. For my music and I know for a fact it's the same for the artists I admire and enjoy the music of - nothing less than the best is good enough In my case, the best I can afford - which means I have to spend my limited funds very carefully. Let's not confuse commercialism and art in it's purest form possible at any given turn. I said in MY experience Plug-ins aren’t very good at musical sounding saturation or believable richness of tone. Clearly your mileage varies ;-) .... and to be clear, even if I was the only person on earth who thought this, I'd still think it. other people opinions don't change what my ears hear. .... and I do realise my view of the audio world is a fading view. Sadly imho. |
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Post by niklas1073 on Mar 22, 2024 8:55:09 GMT -6
IME plug-ins aren’t very good at musical sounding saturation or believable richness of tone. ?? - are referring to instrument tracking? Or in general? Obviously countless world class mixing and mastering engineers don't agree with this. But speaking only for myself, as a bit of an analog gear head, I am often very impressed in the digital domain in regards to EQ richness, depth or saturation. I agree with you FM77 here. I consider also myself as analog gear head when it comes to tracking and front end in general. To the point where I think I have purely because of my principles and stubborn mind, turned my back on numerous great things and deprived myself from learning techniques that would benefit me. I have changed my mind in many ways over the years on accepting routes from A to B, but never compromise on the outcome. I do not know how to work a magical guitar or instrument track purely digital, so I don't go down that road until I do. But man I have heard amazing outcome from people who know how to do it. When it comes to keys, synths and organs. I have pretty much ditched the analog world because i made the effort to learn that world. And no one has so far questioned the authenticity of the outcome. I think the first step towards what we could call ditching the amps and mic was done already in 60's, tracking guitars straight nto the desk using it as a really expensive fuzz box. I do think that in the right hands a plug in or a combination of them can come out very musical and rich. Too bad it's not my hands though.... |
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Post by FM77 on Mar 22, 2024 10:19:54 GMT -6
?? - are referring to instrument tracking? Or in general? Obviously countless world class mixing and mastering engineers don't agree with this. But speaking only for myself, as a bit of an analog gear head, I am often very impressed in the digital domain in regards to EQ richness, depth or saturation. Well, countless "world class" mixing engineers do what a lot of us do and mix to a budget and also convenience of recalls for clients. For my music and I know for a fact it's the same for the artists I admire and enjoy the music of - nothing less than the best is good enough In my case, the best I can afford - which means I have to spend my limited funds very carefully. Let's not confuse commercialism and art in it's purest form possible at any given turn. I said in MY experience Plug-ins aren’t very good at musical sounding saturation or believable richness of tone. Clearly your mileage varies ;-) .... and to be clear, even if I was the only person on earth who thought this, I'd still think it. other people opinions don't change what my ears hear. .... and I do realise my view of the audio world is a fading view. Sadly imho. Gotcha.
Although the term world class was intentional. It wasn’t a colloquial phrase, I meant it literally.
Engineers using plugins in tandem with hardware, not because of limited budgets, but rather because of how they work. Well documented for decades, the empirical evidence is overwhelming, so no need to name names. The statement was just in response to my surprise when I read your statement.
I do appreciate the clarification, it is always useful to understand someone perspective and biases. It helps qualify or translate other replies.
I will add that despite having been at this for a long time, I certainly don’t know what ‘only the best’ looks like, or sounds like. I can only know what I like at any given moment of a process.
Nah, no worries man! Your view of the audio world is not so isolated nor fading. I just think your personal biases are keeping you from some great solutions.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,092 
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Post by ericn on Mar 22, 2024 11:14:13 GMT -6
Good player Good amp Good preamp Good mic and position. Done - next album. Future choices are usually the enemy - where no one commits. Stop talking sense 😁 |
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Post by thehightenor on Mar 22, 2024 14:33:46 GMT -6
Well, countless "world class" mixing engineers do what a lot of us do and mix to a budget and also convenience of recalls for clients. For my music and I know for a fact it's the same for the artists I admire and enjoy the music of - nothing less than the best is good enough In my case, the best I can afford - which means I have to spend my limited funds very carefully. Let's not confuse commercialism and art in it's purest form possible at any given turn. I said in MY experience Plug-ins aren’t very good at musical sounding saturation or believable richness of tone. Clearly your mileage varies ;-) .... and to be clear, even if I was the only person on earth who thought this, I'd still think it. other people opinions don't change what my ears hear. .... and I do realise my view of the audio world is a fading view. Sadly imho. Gotcha.
Although the term world class was intentional. It wasn’t a colloquial phrase, I meant it literally.
Engineers using plugins in tandem with hardware, not because of limited budgets, but rather because of how they work. Well documented for decades, the empirical evidence is overwhelming, so no need to name names. The statement was just in response to my surprise when I read your statement.
I do appreciate the clarification, it is always useful to understand someone perspective and biases. It helps qualify or translate other replies.
I will add that despite having been at this for a long time, I certainly don’t know what ‘only the best’ looks like, or sounds like. I can only know what I like at any given moment of a process.
Nah, no worries man! Your view of the audio world is not so isolated nor fading. I just think your personal biases are keeping you from some great solutions.
Oh don’t get me wrong. I have a huge plugin collection. The whole picnic plus the kitchen sink. All the main collections, UAD, Fabfiler, Ozone, Softube, Powercore, DMG, Sonnox …. too many! I use them out of necessity. |
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Post by easyrider on Mar 22, 2024 15:46:05 GMT -6
I have 1000s of plugins…UAD Ulitmate 12, Sonnox, Softube Bundle, Fabfilter bundle, Plugin Alliance…Whole PSP catalogue…countless others… 2000 on last DAW scan… Quite ridiculous really…bought on EDU discount , bought with vouchers…bought on sale…I paid $4 for the Plugin Alliance Townhouse Comp…bought the UAD Ultimate 11 bundle for $7 cost per plugin each with a free upgrade to Ultimate 12… I wish I had not spent this money…I didn’t notice spending it at the time…$29 here $10 there….50% Of Fabfilter everything bundle with EDU discount… It soon ads up…I’ve stopped buying plugins now…I’ve lost interest…I’m bored of cork sniffing compressors…from different developers….cant stand amp sims….not interested in sounding like everyone else…hate the workflow… I enjoy my pedal board….I enjoy the sound, the tactility….the workflow…I enjoy the lack of choice….when I look at my board I think if I can’t get a sound I want with these pedals then I should just pack in..throw in the towel….I have a Vox AC15 A Marshall , A 1974 Fender Champ…a Fender Tweed a deluxe…a Marshall hardwired 4x12 cab… Hardware is fun….endless lists of plugins is hell… Looking forward to filling this new rack with a couple hardware comps some EQs for tracking through…and using them in mixing…    |
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Post by chessparov on Mar 22, 2024 17:50:51 GMT -6
Good player Good amp Good preamp Good mic and position. Done - next album. Future choices are usually the enemy - where no one commits. Stop talking sense 😁 Yes. That's my job. Someone's gotta do it. (Along with John Eppstein-of course ) |
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Post by Dan on Mar 22, 2024 18:20:56 GMT -6
I have 1000s of plugins…UAD Ulitmate 12, Sonnox, Softube Bundle, Fabfilter bundle, Plugin Alliance…Whole PSP catalogue…countless others… 2000 on last DAW scan… Quite ridiculous really…bought on EDU discount , bought with vouchers…bought on sale…I paid $4 for the Plugin Alliance Townhouse Comp…bought the UAD Ultimate 11 bundle for $7 cost per plugin each with a free upgrade to Ultimate 12… I wish I had not spent this money…I didn’t notice spending it at the time…$29 here $10 there….50% Of Fabfilter everything bundle with EDU discount… It soon ads up…I’ve stopped buying plugins now…I’ve lost interest…I’m bored of cork sniffing compressors…from different developers….cant stand amp sims….not interested in sounding like everyone else…hate the workflow… I enjoy my pedal board….I enjoy the sound, the tactility….the workflow…I enjoy the lack of choice….when I look at my board I think if I can’t get a sound I want with these pedals then I should just pack in..throw in the towel….I have a Vox AC15 A Marshall , A 1974 Fender Champ…a Fender Tweed a deluxe…a Marshall hardwired 4x12 cab… Hardware is fun….endless lists of plugins is hell… Looking forward to filling this new rack with a couple hardware comps some EQs for tracking through…and using them in mixing… So you criticize modern plugins and then buy clone 1960s compressors that have a small sweet spot of being able to control signals that fit into it without messing up unlike the best plugin compressors or the best modern hardware, which don’t tend to us fun audiophile things like tubes, transformers, or harken back to the 60s and 70s equipment and are built using modern precision components, often ics, with a ton of program dependency or multiple detectors. Sounds like a skill issue. Back in the day, artists mostly used equipment from a handful of manufactures and didn’t sound the same because they didn’t have canned pre-mixed drum samples, tuned vocals, and distorted by design equipment other than guitar pedals and synth parts. Buying recreations of internet legendary 1960s equipment that got replaced by cleaner models is the wrong way to go about achieving a unique sound. |
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Post by easyrider on Mar 22, 2024 18:52:11 GMT -6
I love my plugins...and you mention "modern plugins" when UAD plugins..that many audio engineers gravitate to, are 16 years old.
What do you mean by Modern plugins?
I have too many and they are a distraction. Even creating a Plugin chain preset makes me feel washed out. I just want to plugin a Mic and record through a hardware chain and move on. What skills?
Making software sound like Hardware?
Trying to get a plugin sound like my analogman Fuzz Ti?
Be more specific...?
Exactly why I don't use amp sims...
Exactly why I use my 1972 Hayman Drumkit...
Exactly I play my own songs and guitar parts...
I want to track with analog Comps and EQ's
The plugin part is irrelevant..Its about workflow and doing what I want to do...
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