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Post by Dan on Mar 22, 2024 19:51:33 GMT -6
What skills?
Making software sound like Hardware? Trying to get a plugin sound like my analogman Fuzz Ti? Be more specific...?
Exactly why I don't use amp sims... Exactly why I use my 1972 Hayman Drumkit... Exactly I play my own songs and guitar parts... I want to track with analog Comps and EQ's The plugin part is irrelevant..Its about workflow and doing what I want to do...
[/quote] The ability to use what you have. Learn to use it. Much of what you own is perfectly fine and capable of a far greater range of control than an 1176 and an LA2A, which each have only a few stereotypical sounds you can get out of them that are often out of the sweetspot and only have a dynamic action you cannot easily hear in a small sweet spot: a few vu off for limiting or a slight overshoot for an 1176 before the release goes nuts and right where the gain reduction starts to speed up for an LA2A where anything more or anything less can often sound quite bad. If what they can do is not what your recorded track needs or unexpected levels push them out of the sweet spot, you will have negative effects upon the sound. You cannot play and adjust the too slow or too grabby optical compressor at the same time. The amp sims are capable of a far greater range of tones than owning an individual amp that can better suit the material. Sure some amps are great but many guitarists use modelers or plugins now. Some use boutique and fleawatt amps that sound unique. Many of the presets are quite good and with modern flexible distortion plugins you can even build your own amp. The plugin models can sound better than units of the real thing too or can be something all their own with models of crazy unobtanium historic amplifiers you are free to build a very cool sounding chain with. The workflow hurts the sound in the end unless you are tracking everything at once, can adjust it all, and can hear it with everything else as it is being played. The same as mixing it to tape as the band is playing without the tape. Otherwise processing done on the way in is often done half-heartedly based on a feeling of what should be right rather than what sounds right in the mix or without hearing the tracks being recorded in the mix. Like pre-mixed canned drum samples. Most guitar tracks that go through a 1073 type thing with the aim of getting the 1073 sound on it will have to be heavily filtered and gutted like a fish in the low mids and top end. |
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Post by yotonic on Mar 22, 2024 20:31:07 GMT -6
Music and production are interesting. For me I find almost the opposite of everything you said, and yet I’m sure you are proficient in how you approach your craft. Many people, fish, live and create different ways. It’s what makes people and their craft so interesting.
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Post by thehightenor on Mar 23, 2024 2:49:09 GMT -6
Ah plugins (we all have to do it to some degree or another) they're just a necessary evil of modern music making - cost, space, heat, power, recall - it's hard to work without them.
I don't like the sound of them very much but some of the better ones I can and do use.
My local dealer who I buy some of my gear from has a private studio - he has 7 large racks of the best analog processing out there all through Lynx A N converters.
He's played me some of his tracks and they sound truly stunning in a way I've never heard anyone get within a country mile of using "cartoon GUI "modelled" plugins.
It's like amp sims (I've got S-Gear, Guitar Rig, Neural Imperial MK2 and a few more)
There's no way I'd of dropped $10K on a pro guitar rig (amps, pedal board, mic and pre's) if a $99 Neural Amp Sim and a few DAW plugins could achieve the same result.
Money is very hard to earn and only a fool and money are easily parted. I'm no fool!
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Post by thehightenor on Mar 23, 2024 3:03:04 GMT -6
I have 1000s of plugins…UAD Ulitmate 12, Sonnox, Softube Bundle, Fabfilter bundle, Plugin Alliance…Whole PSP catalogue…countless others… 2000 on last DAW scan… Quite ridiculous really…bought on EDU discount , bought with vouchers…bought on sale…I paid $4 for the Plugin Alliance Townhouse Comp…bought the UAD Ultimate 11 bundle for $7 cost per plugin each with a free upgrade to Ultimate 12… I wish I had not spent this money…I didn’t notice spending it at the time…$29 here $10 there….50% Of Fabfilter everything bundle with EDU discount… It soon ads up…I’ve stopped buying plugins now…I’ve lost interest…I’m bored of cork sniffing compressors…from different developers….cant stand amp sims….not interested in sounding like everyone else…hate the workflow… I enjoy my pedal board….I enjoy the sound, the tactility….the workflow…I enjoy the lack of choice….when I look at my board I think if I can’t get a sound I want with these pedals then I should just pack in..throw in the towel….I have a Vox AC15 A Marshall , A 1974 Fender Champ…a Fender Tweed a deluxe…a Marshall hardwired 4x12 cab… Hardware is fun….endless lists of plugins is hell… Looking forward to filling this new rack with a couple hardware comps some EQs for tracking through…and using them in mixing…    Yep, that's how I've ended up with so many plugins. I always hope the next plugin comp or EQ will actually sound and respond like hardware (after reading the hype "they've finally cracked it") and then next week there's a MK 2 and so I buy the upgrade and I'm still disappointed by the results - though how I actually expect a $99 plugin to sound like a $3,000 compressor just because it has the same GUI .... talk about falling for Skeuomorphism! And then I buy a hardware tube EQ or compressor and there we are. I'm sonically satisfied. It's the sound I have in my head - no need for a inner narrative about "hey man this is like 95% of the real thing" coz it is actually "the real thing" .... (there are digital plugins like non emulation EQ's, compressors and limiters that I do use as surgical tools and have no hardware equivalent and I'm not looking for any tone or saturation and just something perfect and highly controllable - those plugins like non linear recording are of course very welcome and very useful at times) But my wish list now is only hardware. I'm re-building a fully hybrid rig and going back to mixing with mainly hardware - I already track with hardware. I don't give a rats that MHB (or whoever) has gone ITB - aside from the fact he made his name mixing analog - and since he went ITB I personally feel his mixes sound worse for it - aside all that - it's what I hear and have a preference for that counts on my productions. If people want to work ITB and it works for them great. But it doesn't work for me and so I'm done with buying more plugins. The hardware users and the plugin users with just have to coexists is peaceful harmony :-) |
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Post by easyrider on Mar 23, 2024 6:02:53 GMT -6
Sound great looking forward to the restrictions…
Not interested in massive amount of tone choice using sims…I state this in the OP…I’ve watched many a guitarist dick about for hours chasing tone…and all the stuff I’ve tried don’t come close to my pedal board and tweed deluxe…
You keep mentioning these modern distortion plugins….which ones?
Guess everyone using hardware has been doing it wrong all along…
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Post by Shadowk on Mar 23, 2024 7:24:58 GMT -6
The problem is that a lot of people don't *know* what a good recording tone is. They like the ball-shaking volume in the room and they're conditioned to believe that it has to be LOUD to sound good. More often than not, a good tone for recording a raucous amp like this is barely above talking volume. Anyway, have you ever actually tried to talk a guitarist into tracking with low volume who has never done it before? It's harder than getting a singer to not hit the vape between every take. 1000% agreed, the issue is some amps are as slack as a paper bag of gummi bears so you hit the cones hard to flex and compress. Although with that comes quite a bit of horrible distortion which as you said when you cut the mud / lows it leaves a shrillness behind. When I listen to amps I also look at the settings they use to achieve that, with the Engl Retrotube 50 for example it never needs to be above 2 on the master.
I'm sure Spinal Tap will shed a tear here but both my ears and recordings are thankful that I'm never above conservative well behaved house party volumes.
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Post by FM77 on Mar 23, 2024 7:35:00 GMT -6
Hardware; You collect it same as plugins, it needs a physical home/space, it needs I/O, cabling, integrating into the system and of course, it still needs a song to put it's value to use. Hardware is my primary way to work, but there are downfalls.
Tracking is fine, but the reality hits hard when you are mixing a track. You might be getting a killer vibe from a certain compressor or EQ, but you only have 1 or 2 and you really want them on 8 tracks. This happens daily. It is a legit issue. Logically, many turn to finding an alternative. Or we go old school and bounce the track. But when the plugin starts to sound incredibly close to the hardware during the mix, it becomes a viable choice. I do subscribe to to the idea of using plugin EQs to cut and carve and using hardware EQ to boost and add weight.
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Post by FM77 on Mar 23, 2024 7:43:11 GMT -6
Feeling inspired / inspired performance and sonic excellence are not synonymous. For art, self producing etc, I would 100% rather be inspired by my tools, whichh is what the OP is aiming for here. I support any process that provides that. Of course at some point your standards require both. Some people start with sonic excellence and move their way back toward inspired performances, some start with great music and move their way towards capturing it correctly. Whatever it is, the journey is legit.
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Post by Shadowk on Mar 23, 2024 8:28:19 GMT -6
One last thing, I'm not sure if it's just me but I don't find amps hard to mic up. I use a 57 or Beyer M88 to the right off the dust cap like the approach in the vid, done.. Maybe I'm just tone deaf when it comes to guitar "tone"?
P.S I love Ola's sense of humour, "buy's all the best amps in the world and makes them sound the same", "Hurr, Durr I profiled my anus then I profiled a Kemper with a Kemper"..
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Post by easyrider on Mar 23, 2024 11:18:35 GMT -6
Hardware; You collect it same as plugins, it needs a physical home/space, it needs I/O, cabling, integrating into the system and of course, it still needs a song to put it's value to use. Hardware is my primary way to work, but there are downfalls.
Tracking is fine, but the reality hits hard when you are mixing a track. You might be getting a killer vibe from a certain compressor or EQ, but you only have 1 or 2 and you really want them on 8 tracks. This happens daily. It is a legit issue. Logically, many turn to finding an alternative. Or we go old school and bounce the track. But when the plugin starts to sound incredibly close to the hardware during the mix, it becomes a viable choice. I do subscribe to to the idea of using plugin EQs to cut and carve and using hardware EQ to boost and add weight.
I’m not going to stop using my plugins. I’ve just spent far too much time recording and then trying to get the recordings sounding good. Want to change this if I can and record through my Neve 1073 and hardware comps. Get it sounding good when I record. That’s my plan . I’ve got no issue with printing a kick or snare or drum bus through the hardware. Also Studio one makes adding hardware inserts so easy using Pipeline XT I’ve got the IO and the patchbays so I’m good to go . |
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Post by thehightenor on Mar 23, 2024 11:53:58 GMT -6
Feeling inspired / inspired performance and sonic excellence are not synonymous. For art, self producing etc, I would 100% rather be inspired by my tools, whichh is what the OP is aiming for here. I support any process that provides that. Of course at some point your standards require both. Some people start with sonic excellence and move their way back toward inspired performances, some start with great music and move their way towards capturing it correctly. Whatever it is, the journey is legit.
Agreed +1 I'm from the Donald Fagen school of writing and arranging - he uses Garage Band to write and arrange. I use only what I call "50 cent" sounds - my only sound source when I write is HalionSonic or stock Kontakt sounds - for guitar S-Gear amp sim. Cheap little C3000B to get vocals down and a 20 year old Mackie 1402 connected to a 20 year old RME Multiface. I don't want big glossy amazing tones when I write - they always give me the illusion of quality to compositions - it's just a veneer of quality. When I've finished a new song and arrangement and it sounds really great (it's not finished until it's something I'm truly proud of) Then I know when I start tracking with real instruments and unleash my mic locker and racks of hardware I'm going to have something special when I've finished. It sounds a bit back to front, but forcing the music and the arrangement to stand out as musically excellent and not rely on "sounds" has forced me to be a much better composer and arranger. It's worked so well I'm going to stick with this approach - odd as it may seem. |
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Post by easyrider on Mar 25, 2024 5:50:11 GMT -6
I need two more channels of pre amp…
Any thought on the Phoenix Ascent?
Or the API 3122v
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Post by niklas1073 on Mar 25, 2024 6:26:27 GMT -6
I need two more channels of pre amp… Any thought on the Phoenix Ascent? Or the API 3122v I guess all and all you are going thru a phase which most of us who started recording and mixing during the digital age does, a healthy but expensive phase. When you realise the front end makes the biggest difference in your chain, and the mics the biggest of them all and you want to dive into it as fast as you can. Most times you will not be able to tell preamps apart if they are used as aimed to in the first place, clean headroom. When you push them you get into character that brings them apart. Take it slow and come to terms with what you wan't to feed the A/D with. What do you want to sound like, what should the outcome be? I'm always very sceptical to questions like "what do you think of this and this pre" incase it's not in the context of, "I want to achieve this, would this or this help me get there" You have decided on 1073, 1176, la2a. Great, very specific soundscape there, but a neat one if that's what you are going for. I have similar setup and it serves me well. What are your own thoughts around phoenix and api and how they should complement your current setup? I have a couple of api pre's myself, don't like them at all in combination with 1073 setup. Not bad pre's at all but just not complementing my soundscape. |
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Post by matt@IAA on Mar 25, 2024 7:36:00 GMT -6
If you're interested 3122V check out our QPP or QP5  |
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Post by Shadowk on Mar 25, 2024 8:18:54 GMT -6
I need two more channels of pre amp… Any thought on the Phoenix Ascent? Or the API 3122v When you're in the realm of expensive or boutique for me it really doesn't seem to matter that much. The only amp that makes a noteable difference (even then we're pushing it) is the Shelford channel. I always go for dual Xformer mic amps like the 312C, 512V, IAA 622, RND Shelford and the performance is about the same even if you use the dual tap on the API's and crank it. Personally I could use any of these interchangeably even if they have a slightly different sonic signature, although they are a specific design & style.
The IAA 622 does come with a sweet compressor & some EQ so I'd consider it if you don't need a stereo pair.
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Post by thehightenor on Mar 25, 2024 8:35:44 GMT -6
I need two more channels of pre amp… Any thought on the Phoenix Ascent? Or the API 3122v Solid state? My absolute all time favourite tube pre-amp I use the most over my other pre's is the Coil CA-70. I wish I could afford another and two of their 286's too. |
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Post by poppaflavor on Mar 25, 2024 9:01:46 GMT -6
I need two more channels of pre amp… Any thought on the Phoenix Ascent? Or the API 3122v Solid state? My absolute all time favourite tube pre-amp I use the most over my other pre's is the Coil CA-70. I wish I could afford another and two of their 286's too. Yes I have a CA70S and it is delightfully unique. For such a simple interface it offers sweeping opportunities for tonal crafting. I'm guessing the OP easyrider would totally dig a CA70S just based upon the posts so far :-) I definitely need a second one to process stereo tracks and busses. I've considered getting the CA286S rather than a second CA70S And then processing mid-side with the CA70S on the mid channel and the CA286S on the sides. But at this point I'm saving up for a second CA70S, because that deliciousness knows no end and processing LR stereo is a bit more generally applicable than MS processing in my current practices. |
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Post by easyrider on Mar 25, 2024 11:11:33 GMT -6
I need two more channels of pre amp… Any thought on the Phoenix Ascent? Or the API 3122v I guess all and all you are going thru a phase which most of us who started recording and mixing during the digital age does, a healthy but expensive phase. When you realise the front end makes the biggest difference in your chain, and the mics the biggest of them all and you want to dive into it as fast as you can. Most times you will not be able to tell preamps apart if they are used as aimed to in the first place, clean headroom. When you push them you get into character that brings them apart. Take it slow and come to terms with what you wan't to feed the A/D with. What do you want to sound like, what should the outcome be? I'm always very sceptical to questions like "what do you think of this and this pre" incase it's not in the context of, "I want to achieve this, would this or this help me get there" You have decided on 1073, 1176, la2a. Great, very specific soundscape there, but a neat one if that's what you are going for. I have similar setup and it serves me well. What are your own thoughts around phoenix and api and how they should complement your current setup? I have a couple of api pre's myself, don't like them at all in combination with 1073 setup. Not bad pre's at all but just not complementing my soundscape. Some helpful insight cheers…Firstly I want to record my acoustic with two different mics…and use the a third mic to sing with while playing…so I’ll need at least 3 channels to track with…then probs overdub piano bass and drums…percussion etc… So for this purposes I need a pre that compliments the 1073 I guess…cheers |
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Post by easyrider on Mar 25, 2024 11:51:10 GMT -6
I need two more channels of pre amp… Any thought on the Phoenix Ascent? Or the API 3122v Solid state? My absolute all time favourite tube pre-amp I use the most over my other pre's is the Coil CA-70. I wish I could afford another and two of their 286's too. Not sure…all I know is that I need a third channel….  |
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Post by easyrider on Mar 25, 2024 11:51:59 GMT -6
Solid state? My absolute all time favourite tube pre-amp I use the most over my other pre's is the Coil CA-70. I wish I could afford another and two of their 286's too. Yes I have a CA70S and it is delightfully unique. For such a simple interface it offers sweeping opportunities for tonal crafting. I'm guessing the OP easyrider would totally dig a CA70S just based upon the posts so far :-) I definitely need a second one to process stereo tracks and busses. I've considered getting the CA286S rather than a second CA70S And then processing mid-side with the CA70S on the mid channel and the CA286S on the sides. But at this point I'm saving up for a second CA70S, because that deliciousness knows no end and processing LR stereo is a bit more generally applicable than MS processing in my current practices. Looks like a nice piece. |
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Post by Shadowk on Mar 25, 2024 12:01:48 GMT -6
I guess all and all you are going thru a phase which most of us who started recording and mixing during the digital age does, a healthy but expensive phase. When you realise the front end makes the biggest difference in your chain, and the mics the biggest of them all and you want to dive into it as fast as you can. Most times you will not be able to tell preamps apart if they are used as aimed to in the first place, clean headroom. When you push them you get into character that brings them apart. Take it slow and come to terms with what you wan't to feed the A/D with. What do you want to sound like, what should the outcome be? I'm always very sceptical to questions like "what do you think of this and this pre" incase it's not in the context of, "I want to achieve this, would this or this help me get there" You have decided on 1073, 1176, la2a. Great, very specific soundscape there, but a neat one if that's what you are going for. I have similar setup and it serves me well. What are your own thoughts around phoenix and api and how they should complement your current setup? I have a couple of api pre's myself, don't like them at all in combination with 1073 setup. Not bad pre's at all but just not complementing my soundscape. Some helpful insight cheers…Firstly I want to record my acoustic with two different mics…and use the a third mic to sing with while playing…so I’ll need at least 3 channels to track with…then probs overdub piano bass and drums…percussion etc… So for this purposes I need a pre that compliments the 1073 I guess…cheers I think you can overemphasise this stuff, one legendary mic amp vs. another isn’t ever going to break a track. If it does it definitely wouldn’t be the preamp I’d be looking at. |
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Post by easyrider on Mar 25, 2024 12:07:15 GMT -6
Some helpful insight cheers…Firstly I want to record my acoustic with two different mics…and use the a third mic to sing with while playing…so I’ll need at least 3 channels to track with…then probs overdub piano bass and drums…percussion etc… So for this purposes I need a pre that compliments the 1073 I guess…cheers I think you can overemphasise this stuff, one legendary mic amp vs. another isn’t ever going to break a track. If it does it definitely wouldn’t be the preamp I’d be looking at. Yeah..I’ve seen a Mint Pheonix ascent for a really good price. |
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Post by thehightenor on Mar 25, 2024 13:58:49 GMT -6
Solid state? My absolute all time favourite tube pre-amp I use the most over my other pre's is the Coil CA-70. I wish I could afford another and two of their 286's too. Not sure…all I know is that I need a third channel…. I have a BAE 1073D pre/EQ and a Millennia STT-1 dual path channel strip (tube and solid state) and a dedicated AEA ribbon pre but absolute favourite for tracking vocals is the Coil CA-70. It has variable "negative feedback" and it allows you to change the harmonic content of the signal in a very unique way. My vocal chain is Wunder CM7 > Coil CA-70> Retro STA Level > HEDD 192 AD and the Coil is just amazing in this chain - I can dial in the absolute perfect amount of top end response and the whole chain is soooo smooth. It's perfect for the kind of vocals I love but it would be too slick I think for an indie/punk/rap track - so it's horses for courses. I'd like to get a pair of Neve 8081 channel strips - but it's way too expensive at the moment. So many great Pre's/ EQ's/ Compressors out there these days. |
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Post by niklas1073 on Mar 25, 2024 14:19:54 GMT -6
I guess all and all you are going thru a phase which most of us who started recording and mixing during the digital age does, a healthy but expensive phase. When you realise the front end makes the biggest difference in your chain, and the mics the biggest of them all and you want to dive into it as fast as you can. Most times you will not be able to tell preamps apart if they are used as aimed to in the first place, clean headroom. When you push them you get into character that brings them apart. Take it slow and come to terms with what you wan't to feed the A/D with. What do you want to sound like, what should the outcome be? I'm always very sceptical to questions like "what do you think of this and this pre" incase it's not in the context of, "I want to achieve this, would this or this help me get there" You have decided on 1073, 1176, la2a. Great, very specific soundscape there, but a neat one if that's what you are going for. I have similar setup and it serves me well. What are your own thoughts around phoenix and api and how they should complement your current setup? I have a couple of api pre's myself, don't like them at all in combination with 1073 setup. Not bad pre's at all but just not complementing my soundscape. Some helpful insight cheers…Firstly I want to record my acoustic with two different mics…and use the a third mic to sing with while playing…so I’ll need at least 3 channels to track with…then probs overdub piano bass and drums…percussion etc… So for this purposes I need a pre that compliments the 1073 I guess…cheers Cool. You have a nice stereo set of 73s, one way to go is to continue on the 73 path if that fits your ears and needs. Get a stereo pair of for example pre only’s and have a nice quad of 73 sound. This will work nicely also for 4mic drumset in case you end up tracking drums. Or you get a 3rd pre that matches well with a specific vocal mic you have matched for your voice. Don’t rule out tube pre’s like locomotive wt72 and similar that can be really nice dedicated vocal pre’s depending on your mic locker ofcourse. Then I know many just picks something totally different that will represent another palette to cover as much ground and variables as possible. Never been down my alley. I don’t believe in trying to do many things decently, rather do one thing well. The ones you have been eye balling might just work great for you, as what you seem to be looking into primarily is a vocal pre for yourself. I would try them out in your guitar vocal triangle miking and see how it sits. That will likely give you the most realistic outcome. |
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Post by easyrider on Mar 26, 2024 7:16:31 GMT -6
Not sure…all I know is that I need a third channel…. I have a BAE 1073D pre/EQ and a Millennia STT-1 dual path channel strip (tube and solid state) and a dedicated AEA ribbon pre but absolute favourite for tracking vocals is the Coil CA-70. It has variable "negative feedback" and it allows you to change the harmonic content of the signal in a very unique way. My vocal chain is Wunder CM7 > Coil CA-70> Retro STA Level > HEDD 192 AD and the Coil is just amazing in this chain - I can dial in the absolute perfect amount of top end response and the whole chain is soooo smooth. It's perfect for the kind of vocals I love but it would be too slick I think for an indie/punk/rap track - so it's horses for courses. I'd like to get a pair of Neve 8081 channel strips - but it's way too expensive at the moment. So many great Pre's/ EQ's/ Compressors out there these days. Nice pres! |
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