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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 12, 2024 19:00:01 GMT -6
For me it's just that they seem to abandon interfaces fairly often - not the Symphony II so much: that seems to have been around for awhile and still going strong. But there have been several times now over the years where I went to buy an Apogee interface only to discover that they'd recently discontinued it. Happened with an Element, an Ensemble, a Duet, and an original Symphony. That's really my only hesitation - I've always liked the Apogee sound.
For better or for worse, Metric Halo is at the other end of the spectrum: Every interface they've ever released going back 20+yrs is still for sale and fully updatable to modern specs, with new drivers for every interface every time there's a MacOS release. Maybe MH would be more advanced if they let the original 2882 go instead of spending development and research time on manufacturing user-replaceable cards to update an interface from 2002, but I do appreciate their attempts to keep boxes out of landfills rather than sell slightly different versions of the same interface every so often (here's looking at you, MOTU 828).
Other than that, no shade thrown at Apogee over here.
Firewire and the cheaper Thunderbolt chipsets are all gone so a lot of Apogee products got discontinued. The Element 88 was incredibly bang for buck but only was on the market for about 3 years. The same with RME UFX+, most of the cheaper Thunderbolt Focusrites, and some of the Presonus Quantums. Totally - but that’s part of what I mean: all the MH boxes started as FireWire boxes too, but they were committed as a company to “future proofing” and not abandoning any hardware they’d released, so they came up with ways to replace the digital board and keep your box running. At this point, the only thing that’s original on my 13yr old ULN-8 is the shell, but it’s preserved my original investment: I could sell it tomorrow and recoup a fair amount. I doubt I’d be able to do that with an Ensemble. Still, I really do like Apogee sonics, and I hope the current Symphony line is around a long time, bc they really sound great. 👍 |
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Post by Dan on Mar 12, 2024 19:01:11 GMT -6
Firewire and the cheaper Thunderbolt chipsets are all gone so a lot of Apogee products got discontinued. The Element 88 was incredibly bang for buck but only was on the market for about 3 years. The same with RME UFX+, most of the cheaper Thunderbolt Focusrites, and some of the Presonus Quantums. Totally - but that’s part of what I mean: all the MH boxes started as FireWire boxes too, but they were committed as a company to “future proofing” and not abandoning any hardware they’d released, so they came up with ways to replace the digital board and keep your box running. At this point, the only thing that’s original on my 13yr old ULN-8 is the shell, but it’s preserved my original investment: I could sell it tomorrow and recoup a fair amount. I doubt I’d be able to do that with an Ensemble. Still, I really do like Apogee sonics, and I hope the current Symphony line is around a long time, bc they really sound great. 👍 yeah and they don't update the drivers like RME, Lynx, and MH do. It takes them a while and the USB interfaces use thesyscon drivers on Windows. At least they're not Focusrite. |
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Post by Shadowk on Mar 12, 2024 19:14:39 GMT -6
Which one? There's been a few of them over the years, the Digi Mbox yeah.. The Pro Tools Mbox Pro was a cracking little interface. Was that FireWire? The USB ones weren't that hot. There's so many versions: This is the original digi (a mate of mine gave it to me), it wasn't a good sounding interface. This was the Digi Mbox 2, also not a good sounding interface. I tried one and gave it a wide miss..
This is the re-designed Avid Mbox Pro that I bought for a mobile rig, this was excellent. And this is the latest Mbox that I haven't heard. |
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Post by notneeson on Mar 12, 2024 19:34:02 GMT -6
The mbox pro really was a perfectly usable interface! You don’t see a whole of chatter on that subject because it’s not sexy. I had that first mbox when it came out. Not so great.😃
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Post by ragan on Mar 12, 2024 19:35:06 GMT -6
What are the datapoints that make ya’ll skittish about Apogee? For me it's just that they seem to abandon interfaces fairly often - not the Symphony II so much: that seems to have been around for awhile and still going strong. But there have been several times now over the years where I went to buy an Apogee interface only to discover that they'd recently discontinued it. Happened with an Element, an Ensemble, a Duet, and an original Symphony. That's really my only hesitation - I've always liked the Apogee sound.
For better or for worse, Metric Halo is at the other end of the spectrum: Every interface they've ever released going back 20+yrs is still for sale and fully updatable to modern specs, with new drivers for every interface every time there's a MacOS release. Maybe MH would be more advanced if they let the original 2882 go instead of spending development and research time on manufacturing user-replaceable cards to update an interface from 2002, but I do appreciate their attempts to keep boxes out of landfills rather than sell slightly different versions of the same interface every so often (here's looking at you, MOTU 828).
Other than that, no shade thrown at Apogee over here.
Yeah that makes sense. I think that's great about MH and their ongoing support. Super cool. I don't have any inherent loyalty to Apogee. I've generally liked the one interface of theirs that I've owned, but that's about it. |
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Post by probably on Mar 12, 2024 19:46:41 GMT -6
I just hate my Apollo twin duo (usb)
I would love to get a Cranborne Audio 500R8
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Post by Shadowk on Mar 12, 2024 19:52:45 GMT -6
I just hate my Apollo twin duo (usb) I would love to get a Cranborne Audio 500R8 How come? |
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Post by probably on Mar 12, 2024 20:10:03 GMT -6
I just hate my Apollo twin duo (usb) I would love to get a Cranborne Audio 500R8 How come? Blue screens, Driver support needing to reinstall the software sometimes having to reinstall windows because the issue never fixed from reinstalling, random pops, Over heating causing it to restart that causes a domino effect restarting all Bluetooth devices to reset with it, sometimes my mic is not detected. If using outside of recording such as general communication on discord for example I have to restart Discord every time I boot into windows also again because of the random restarts. This added with many more I have had since I have had it. Safe to say for me I will never purchase another apollo interface for myself. |
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Post by Quint on Mar 12, 2024 20:43:43 GMT -6
Blue screens, Driver support needing to reinstall the software sometimes having to reinstall windows because the issue never fixed from reinstalling, random pops, Over heating causing it to restart that causes a domino effect restarting all Bluetooth devices to reset with it, sometimes my mic is not detected. If using outside of recording such as general communication on discord for example I have to restart Discord every time I boot into windows also again because of the random restarts. This added with many more I have had since I have had it. Safe to say for me I will never purchase another apollo interface for myself. It's not Apollos in general. It's USB Apollos, specifically. I don't care what anyone at UA says. Windows is an afterthought for UA, and I have my doubts that they will ever take the Windows market seriously, or at least as seriously as they take the Mac market. It's just the way that it is. UA really should just stop marketing to Windows users. I switched to Mac from PC because of all of this and, hey, my Apollos work great on Mac. In fairness, my TB Apollos worked flawlessly on PC, but I made absolutely sure that I bought the right parts for my PC build. It's the other stuff like no Luna for Windows that ultimately pushed me to Mac. UA haven't kept up with Windows driver updates for TB Apollos either, though TB Apollos at least still work on Windows, provided you use the right PC builds. But you're not the only Apollo USB owner I've heard make such comments about their Apollo Twin USB. |
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Post by BenjaminAshlin on Mar 12, 2024 20:57:25 GMT -6
What are the datapoints that make ya’ll skittish about Apogee? Owning them...and there passed record. Love the sound though. Few issues with the current desktop drivers, it was half baked on release. Support and drivers for all thunderbolt interfaces have been dumped as well as symphony mk1. Their firewire driver was never particularly good and they stopped updating them very early. Part of their problem is relying on the core audio driver and out sourcing the driver development. Yes, they are a small company but I don't believe they value drivers enough. But they are still better than antelope audio. |
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Post by probably on Mar 12, 2024 20:59:00 GMT -6
Blue screens, Driver support needing to reinstall the software sometimes having to reinstall windows because the issue never fixed from reinstalling, random pops, Over heating causing it to restart that causes a domino effect restarting all Bluetooth devices to reset with it, sometimes my mic is not detected. If using outside of recording such as general communication on discord for example I have to restart Discord every time I boot into windows also again because of the random restarts. This added with many more I have had since I have had it. Safe to say for me I will never purchase another apollo interface for myself. It's not Apollos in general. It's USB Apollos, specifically. I don't care what anyone at UA says. Windows is an afterthought for UA, and I have my doubts that they will ever take the Windows market seriously It's just the way that it is. UA really should just stop marketing to Windows users. I switched to Mac from PC because of all of this and, hey, my Apollos work great on Mac. They haven't kept up with Windows driver updates for TB Apollos either, though TB Apollos at least still work on Windows, provided you use the right PC builds. But you're not the only Apollo USB owner I've heard make such comments about their Apollo Twin USB. I have read as such with the usb variant and windows, I believe you would be correct as all these problems have loomed since I have purchased the unit. When upgrading it will no longer be a problem for me but for my Girlfriend. |
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Post by gwlee7 on Mar 12, 2024 21:36:03 GMT -6
I was not happy with how quickly my twin usb became obsolete after I purchased it. But that was a while back now and I am totally off the UA platform. I chalked it up to buying tech at the exact wrong time.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Mar 13, 2024 9:40:32 GMT -6
Once I got the Black Lion Audio mod for my Apollo X6m I', a happy camper. It's more like a Dangerous Music tone now than a Symphony, but I no longer feel the need to have anything else unless I had 20 G's to start all over.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Mar 13, 2024 20:33:04 GMT -6
Perfect solution except it's made by apogee and will be discontinued in 2 years time. And has pretty average drivers. If it weren't for those two things I would definitely have one. As it is, I'm currently using RME PCI card with antelope audio conversion. I would love to have just a small high quality usb interface like the symphony desktop but can't trust appogee on the driver front. The Hilo looks like a pretty cool device. I've never gotten the chance to try one. Maybe one of these days. Good luck! John That's always my fear with Apogee, too. And one of the reasons I've stuck with Metric Halo for so long. Probably the least sexy of all interfaces, but their driver for the new Apple OS is always out before the OS even goes public. Has MH ever discontinued a box ? |
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 13, 2024 21:07:01 GMT -6
That's always my fear with Apogee, too. And one of the reasons I've stuck with Metric Halo for so long. Probably the least sexy of all interfaces, but their driver for the new Apple OS is always out before the OS even goes public. Has MH ever discontinued a box ? Nope. |
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 13, 2024 21:31:52 GMT -6
Has MH ever discontinued a box ? Nope. Actually, I should probably clarify, ericn. There have been a couple of times where MH have had to reconfigure the innards so a box could continue working. If you bought a 2882 in 2002 and are still using it today on modern OSes and machines, it would mean you have replaced the digital board a time or two. And my ULN-8 started out as an LIO-8 2d that I then upgraded myself with 8 preamps, and later, a 3d board. I have a mkIV analog board sitting here that I haven't had a chance to install yet. The capacitors dried out on one analog board of mine years ago, and they sent me a new board that I was able to replace right here on my dining room table. And they haven't yet released mkIV upgrade boards for the 2882 or ULN-2, but they're in the pipeline. They're not perfect, of course - there's been quite the debacle about continued lack of Windows support despite it being announced several years ago. And I'm still waiting for a version of Spectra Foo to be compatible with Apple Silicon. They're a small company, and that usually comes with pros AND cons. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Mar 13, 2024 21:43:21 GMT -6
Actually, I should probably clarify, ericn. There have been a couple of times where MH have had to reconfigure the innards so a box could continue working. If you bought a 2882 in 2002 and are still using it today on modern OSes and machines, it would mean you have replaced the digital board a time or two. And my ULN-8 started out as an LIO-8 2d that I then upgraded myself with 8 preamps, and later, a 3d board. I have a mkIV analog board sitting here that I haven't had a chance to install yet. The capacitors dried out on one analog board of mine years ago, and they sent me a new board that I was able to replace right here on my dining room table. And they haven't yet released mkIV upgrade boards for the 2882 or ULN-2, but they're in the pipeline. They're not perfect, of course - there's been quite the debacle about continued lack of Windows support despite it being announced several years ago. And I'm still waiting for a version of Spectra Foo to be compatible with Apple Silicon. They're a small company, and that usually comes with pros AND cons. Mark, the key is they have given people upgrade options consistently. Who else has, All the way back in 1998 I was already telling people they were a Mac Company that is talking about doing windows but don’t hold your breath. Spectrafoo will get there, the problem is it’s not as popular as it once was. SMAART, has pretty much replaced it live, and let’s face it every DSP platform has its own basic measurement system. |
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Post by reddirt on Mar 13, 2024 22:44:56 GMT -6
No talk about the newish Neumann interface; anyone know anything? - might be worth a look JK.
Cheers, Ross
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 13, 2024 23:03:22 GMT -6
Actually, I should probably clarify, ericn. There have been a couple of times where MH have had to reconfigure the innards so a box could continue working. If you bought a 2882 in 2002 and are still using it today on modern OSes and machines, it would mean you have replaced the digital board a time or two. And my ULN-8 started out as an LIO-8 2d that I then upgraded myself with 8 preamps, and later, a 3d board. I have a mkIV analog board sitting here that I haven't had a chance to install yet. The capacitors dried out on one analog board of mine years ago, and they sent me a new board that I was able to replace right here on my dining room table. And they haven't yet released mkIV upgrade boards for the 2882 or ULN-2, but they're in the pipeline. They're not perfect, of course - there's been quite the debacle about continued lack of Windows support despite it being announced several years ago. And I'm still waiting for a version of Spectra Foo to be compatible with Apple Silicon. They're a small company, and that usually comes with pros AND cons. Mark, the key is they have given people upgrade options consistently. Who else has, All the way back in 1998 I was already telling people they were a Mac Company that is talking about doing windows but don’t hold your breath. Spectrafoo will get there, the problem is it’s not as popular as it once was. SMAART, has pretty much replaced it live, and let’s face it every DSP platform has its own basic measurement system. yeah, and BJ said he basically was having to rewrite ‘Foo from the ground up for Apple Silicon. |
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Post by Dan on Mar 14, 2024 8:34:04 GMT -6
Mark, the key is they have given people upgrade options consistently. Who else has, All the way back in 1998 I was already telling people they were a Mac Company that is talking about doing windows but don’t hold your breath. Spectrafoo will get there, the problem is it’s not as popular as it once was. SMAART, has pretty much replaced it live, and let’s face it every DSP platform has its own basic measurement system. yeah, and BJ said he basically was having to rewrite ‘Foo from the ground up for Apple Silicon. Everything without a modern codebase had to be rewritten from the ground up. All the oldschool PSP stuff has been to the point they just ditched some antiquated plugins like the Mix and Stereo pack and wrote new ones. U-he was and Urs and others updated all the filters into better structures so their older plugins are better than ever. The developers who didn't start out way back when could just recompile if they were any good. They have JUCE and stuff. |
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Post by Dan on Mar 14, 2024 8:41:28 GMT -6
Apple stifles innovation by requiring constant maintenance. The new Mac OS Sonoma 14.4 update just broke Pace... but only for AU, only for Logic, and only for Apple Silicon. Apple broke their own DAW more or less and all systems using a hub for external monitors, which is common with their machines meant to look pretty rather than provide adequate ports. Naturally Sonnox was the first on it being one of the few remaining pro as fuck developers and then UAD a few days later and nobody else released anything to their customers telling them not to update. And it is a bug on Apple's part so the fix will come in 14.5.
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kbb
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Post by kbb on Mar 15, 2024 3:43:08 GMT -6
I think I've decided to pull the trigger on a used Hilo Only chiming in because awhile back, an engineer friend that was considering getting an Apollo and I spent a few hours a/b-ing my Apollo x6 with his Hilo and we both thought the difference was subtle-to-indistinguishable most of the time. Coming from me it doesn't mean much, but engineering/mixing have been his living for a few decades...a genuinely accomplished guy. The room was built from the ground up for mixing, super nice monitors, etc. The hilo might have been a little clearer in the mids, but he didn't think it'd be any harder to mix on one vs the other. |
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Post by sirthought on Mar 15, 2024 4:34:19 GMT -6
No talk about the newish Neumann interface; anyone know anything? - might be worth a look JK. Cheers, Ross I've been really looking hard at them, and spending a lot of time with the manual. They seem to have some very nice features. But I think using outboard with them would be a pain, especially where latency might be an issue. Their latency isn't spectacular to begin with. They are very close, but the connectivity just holds me back. I think the whole AES67/Ravenna is going to be a money suck if you need to track with more inputs and want the network option. The bonus is the very nice preamps, the high dynamic ADC, and generally the form factor appeals to me with the projects I've had lately. But I'm not sure the DAC is anything better than other things out there. And if you want to track larger setups, or add in more outboard for mixing, the connectivity is somewhat narrow. I get that it's not a rack unity, but you can find options from MOTU, Arturia, and RME that give you more expansion when the need arises. If they had used Dante or Madi instead, my opinions might be very different, as there would be more products to pair with it. |
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Post by thehightenor on Mar 15, 2024 4:56:41 GMT -6
I mean if you want rock solid and great sound, buy Lynx and use Thunderbolt. USB? You're stuck with RME for low latency but the moment you hook up a real converter to it for monitoring or stereo capture, you have higher latency. The Apogee Symphony Desktop is certainly much more stable than MOTU and Fuckusrite for me. The drivers just work on Windows now for Apogee USB drivers after they've been out for a few months and iron out the bugs. If this breaks, I might buy the Neve 88M when it's getting fixed just to try it. I use an RME AES PCIe with Crane Song converters (HEDD 192 and Avocet) I’ve played the signal direct from the RME and from the Crane Song units at the same time and the delay is absolutely tiny - nothing to even mention as an issue. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 15, 2024 6:43:04 GMT -6
I think I've decided to pull the trigger on a used Hilo Only chiming in because awhile back, an engineer friend that was considering getting an Apollo and I spent a few hours a/b-ing my Apollo x6 with his Hilo and we both thought the difference was subtle-to-indistinguishable most of the time. Coming from me it doesn't mean much, but engineering/mixing have been his living for a few decades...a genuinely accomplished guy. The room was built from the ground up for mixing, super nice monitors, etc. The hilo might have been a little clearer in the mids, but he didn't think it'd be any harder to mix on one vs the other. I need to set it up so I can AB again…but going back and forth was kind of revealing. It sounds like the Hilo does what the Apollo wants to do…but it’s close. The Hilo is softer in the mids and tighter in the bottom, but like your friend said, I’m not sure it would make me mix differently. Maybe some of the mids might make me crazy digging out 2khz, but the Apollo is not as bad as some say. I’m thinking I’m actually going to do the Apollo x6 mod with the clock and everything. So it’ll be interesting to hear if it can surpass the Hilo. |
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