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Post by Dan on Mar 7, 2024 13:32:49 GMT -6
Right, neither am I. I buy second hand all the time. But my point was that AVID seems to have a really specific margin in mind and a very locked in price per channel. So second hand units don't apply in that case. The reality from the outside appears to be that AVID is starting at "here's what we need to sell this for" and going backwards versus "here's the market says this is worth" and pricing based off of that. If anything the much lower second hand market only further validates my point. I hear you. Discussing Avid as a company is always a headache. The salient point (to me) is that you can get into HDX with older Avid conversion for reasonable money. they're just all over the place looking for revenue and don't want to commit to just one strategy that works because im not sure they know what works for them financially and neither do we. their owners got out and sold it. right now avid sell rebranded DAD equipment with digilink adaptors, mbox stuff that is a hard sell to anyone, and their own carbon that integrates the hdx interface too that appears to be selling decently enough for them to continue making it. they want to sell the new mbox interface for 900 dollars?  ?? who would jump on that? |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 7, 2024 13:34:12 GMT -6
Right, neither am I. I buy second hand all the time. But my point was that AVID seems to have a really specific margin in mind and a very locked in price per channel. So second hand units don't apply in that case. The reality from the outside appears to be that AVID is starting at "here's what we need to sell this for" and going backwards versus "here's the market says this is worth" and pricing based off of that. If anything the much lower second hand market only further validates my point. I hear you. Discussing Avid as a company is always a headache. The salient point (to me) is that you can get into HDX with older Avid conversion for reasonable money. Edit: And they have the most turn key, high function rigs in the market. They just do. Yep, and that's the eternal whisper for someone like me who is doing tons of hardware routing. |
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Post by notneeson on Mar 7, 2024 14:15:22 GMT -6
The short answer is Dr. Bill doesn't buy from the big retailers and he's not married to only buying brand new hardware. Ok, but it’s odd/confusing to not point out that you’re talking about older gen, used hardware (drBill’s price quote) when responding to someone who’s been talking about new price for new hardware. They were discussing how much “Avid wants to make” per channel. Avid isn’t making anything if we buy Digi 192s off Reverb, obvs. Sure, I don't have a dog in this fight, was just trying to bring clarity. I think i failed.  Mixing stuff today tracked with great mics and pres, an old style 192 and an Avid Omni. Tracks sound great. |
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Post by drbill on Mar 7, 2024 14:26:45 GMT -6
Really? Carbon is like $4300 for 8 channels. Why is HDX (allegedly) half that price? A new HDX system comes out to almost exactly $500 per channel. EDIT: Here's a link to the bundles on Sweetwater. I actually undershot it, more like $1000 per channel but that's to get off the ground. Cheaper to expand. If you're looking to get in to HDX or Carbon while buying new and under warranty you're looking at $500 - $1000 channel. Believe me, I want to be wrong. At the very least I wouldn't say my take is "nonsense". www.sweetwater.com/store/search?s=protools+hdxYou guys are shopping at the wrong places. I would never buy AVID from Sweetwater. I was buying HDX cards for $2500 when they were $6k "retail". I was buying HD16's for $1800 when they were well over $4k. And I bought - New. Now....that said, I also bought used, making my investment work even harder. I believe AVID has tightened up a bit, but the deals are still there. But you won't find them at sweetwater. I've turned probably a dozen guys here onto the source I buy from who supplies composers and producers all over the country. They can chime in if they want.... |
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Post by drbill on Mar 7, 2024 14:32:36 GMT -6
The short answer is Dr. Bill doesn't buy from the big retailers and he's not married to only buying brand new hardware. Ok, but it’s odd/confusing to not point out that you’re talking about older gen, used hardware (drBill’s price quote) when responding to someone who’s been talking about new price for new hardware. They were discussing how much “Avid wants to make” per channel. Avid isn’t making anything if we buy Digi 192s off Reverb, obvs. See above ^^^^. I started off buying new - not used. As my I/o needs grew, I did buy used/refurbished actually as well. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 7, 2024 14:43:01 GMT -6
Really? Carbon is like $4300 for 8 channels. Why is HDX (allegedly) half that price? A new HDX system comes out to almost exactly $500 per channel. EDIT: Here's a link to the bundles on Sweetwater. I actually undershot it, more like $1000 per channel but that's to get off the ground. Cheaper to expand. If you're looking to get in to HDX or Carbon while buying new and under warranty you're looking at $500 - $1000 channel. Believe me, I want to be wrong. At the very least I wouldn't say my take is "nonsense". www.sweetwater.com/store/search?s=protools+hdxYou guys are shopping at the wrong places. I would never buy AVID from Sweetwater. I was buying HDX cards for $2500 when they were $6k "retail". I was buying HD16's for $1800 when they were well over $4k. And I bought - New. Now....that said, I also bought used, making my investment work even harder. I believe AVID has tightened up a bit, but the deals are still there. But you won't find them at sweetwater. I've turned probably a dozen guys here onto the source I buy from who supplies composers and producers all over the country. They can chime in if they want.... Fair enough. If we were talking about a price point that was 50% of retail that would be more in line with the market ($2k for a Carbon and I could see buying the three units I would need). Those days may be gone but even 75% would be closer. The competition for Carbon at $4k is the Apollo x16. If you're in the $3k range the competition becomes the Apollo x8 and that's more in line. |
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Post by ragan on Mar 7, 2024 14:48:42 GMT -6
Heheh, I mean, yeah if you cut Avid’s prices in half, they do become more competitive and reasonable. I didn’t know that was a thing.
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Post by christopher on Mar 7, 2024 14:49:01 GMT -6
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 7, 2024 15:14:22 GMT -6
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 7, 2024 15:45:58 GMT -6
I'm really grateful for this thread - it definitely has me thinking about the possibilities of what it would be like to move back to PT after more than 20 years away from it.
However, I do want to represent for Logic Pro, as it's taking a beating in this thread. 
I think the last time I had a crash in Logic was maybe 7-8 years ago? Certainly not in this decade. It's just solid for me. Never a problem. All the "bugs" people are referring to? I mean, there are a couple that are annoying for me, mainly the well-documented automation bug. But I can work around that without any real issue. I seriously haven't had any problems to speak of in a long, long, long time.
I too found it illogical for maybe the first six months back in 2002. But since then? Makes perfect sense to me. It's a great DAW, IMO. Certainly possible (perhaps even likely) that I use it differently to others on this thread, but seriously, it doesn't cause me any issues. The ping feature for outboard in the I/O plugin? Works every time for me. I don't know what else to say.
Now again, I'm reading this thread and imagining what it would look like to switch back to PT, and that's ALL because I wouldn't need a second app for near-zero latency monitoring. That would improve my workflow quite a bit.
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 7, 2024 15:54:25 GMT -6
Here's a question I have that hasn't been asked yet:
Let's say I were to get an Avid HD box used with Digital-only cards in it (I've seen several on eBay) and use my Metric Halo ULN-8 as my A/D/A converters using its AES connections on DB-25 - super easy to hook up to the Avid box. The MH converters (as far as I know) do NOT have the same latency figures as the Avid box or the Lynx or Burl or Rednet, etc. So would PT do its round trip automatic latency for outboard thing and come up with an incorrect number? If so, is there a way to tell PT to "always add 6 samples to the roundtrip calculation," or something like that?
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 7, 2024 15:58:29 GMT -6
Nonsense. I didn't spend anywhere close or in the same hemisphere to $60,000 for my AVID HDX system. Granted, I did buy some used, refurbed, etc., but $500 per channel estimate is ridiculous. I would expect to be paying around $4500 for a 16 channel HDX system these days. That's all in - HDX card, interfaces, perpetual, etc.. A new HDX system comes out to almost exactly $500 per channel. EDIT: Here's a link to the bundles on Sweetwater. I actually undershot it, more like $1000 per channel but that's to get off the ground. Cheaper to expand. If you're looking to get in to HDX or Carbon while buying new and under warranty you're looking at $500 - $1000 channel. Believe me, I want to be wrong. At the very least I wouldn't say my take is "nonsense". www.sweetwater.com/store/search?s=protools+hdxWell, it also includes the $1400 Pro Tools Ultimate software/license |
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Post by shakermaker on Mar 7, 2024 16:04:56 GMT -6
I'd rather punch myself in the nut (singular, it's not as bad as two), YMMV though.. id rather use zoom products and stock pro tools or reaper than touch anything Presonus again. Awful experience gainstaging it. The software feels illogical like Logic + Pro Tools + Reaper’s drag and drop. Oh and it’s buggy and they will introduce bugs version to version where Cubase will fix the bugs from the new version quickly and if something in a new version of Reaper is broken, it will get reverted quickly and then added back fixed. Justin and Schwa are good about that. gain staging? in studio one 6 its pretty straight forward, input gain, trim on every channel, fader, output channels ... pro tools users are sesni lol |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 7, 2024 16:27:46 GMT -6
I'm really grateful for this thread - it definitely has me thinking about the possibilities of what it would be like to move back to PT after more than 20 years away from it.
However, I do want to represent for Logic Pro, as it's taking a beating in this thread.
I think the last time I had a crash in Logic was maybe 7-8 years ago? Certainly not in this decade. It's just solid for me. Never a problem. All the "bugs" people are referring to? I mean, there are a couple that are annoying for me, mainly the well-documented automation bug. But I can work around that without any real issue. I seriously haven't had any problems to speak of in a long, long, long time.
I too found it illogical for maybe the first six months back in 2002. But since then? Makes perfect sense to me. It's a great DAW, IMO. Certainly possible (perhaps even likely) that I use it differently to others on this thread, but seriously, it doesn't cause me any issues. The ping feature for outboard in the I/O plugin? Works every time for me. I don't know what else to say.
Now again, I'm reading this thread and imagining what it would look like to switch back to PT, and that's ALL because I wouldn't need a second app for near-zero latency monitoring. That would improve my workflow quite a bit.
I must have been trying to use Logic in a way that was breaking it without knowing what I was doing. I had so many issues. Very likely user error. |
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 7, 2024 16:41:14 GMT -6
I'm really grateful for this thread - it definitely has me thinking about the possibilities of what it would be like to move back to PT after more than 20 years away from it.
However, I do want to represent for Logic Pro, as it's taking a beating in this thread.
I think the last time I had a crash in Logic was maybe 7-8 years ago? Certainly not in this decade. It's just solid for me. Never a problem. All the "bugs" people are referring to? I mean, there are a couple that are annoying for me, mainly the well-documented automation bug. But I can work around that without any real issue. I seriously haven't had any problems to speak of in a long, long, long time.
I too found it illogical for maybe the first six months back in 2002. But since then? Makes perfect sense to me. It's a great DAW, IMO. Certainly possible (perhaps even likely) that I use it differently to others on this thread, but seriously, it doesn't cause me any issues. The ping feature for outboard in the I/O plugin? Works every time for me. I don't know what else to say.
Now again, I'm reading this thread and imagining what it would look like to switch back to PT, and that's ALL because I wouldn't need a second app for near-zero latency monitoring. That would improve my workflow quite a bit.
I must have been trying to use Logic in a way that was breaking it without knowing what I was doing. I had so many issues. Very likely user error. Or hey, it's possible that I encountered them at some point years ago and found ways to work around them, ingrained my process, and haven't thought about it since - I don't know. When you've been with a piece of software a long time, you don't think about it anymore. You just use it.
Kind of like if you're learning a new language and you ask someone who's fluent "how do you say [this] in the language?" And they respond, "uhh...you don't. Nobody says that kind of thing in this language." There's nearly always a way to get the point across, but some things just don't really translate exactly.
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Post by guitfiddler on Mar 7, 2024 16:43:12 GMT -6
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Post by copperx on Mar 7, 2024 16:56:34 GMT -6
Nobody mentioned how damn sexy that Carbon looks in the rack! I talked to two of my clients and told them about my new interface and that we have to give it a spin and see how it works out. I sent them the link for the avid product video demonstration promo and they just couldn’t wait to get in my studio and record! It actually made them very excited to come in and lay down some new material. Btw, one of my female clients said, damn that’s sexy! I agreed, but I wasn’t referring to the Carbon😆 Pipeline worked good for me in Studio One 4 Professional. I have tested Studio One 6 using the Carbon interface and it works great. You don’t get the DSP, however I didn’t notice any latency when I was tracking drums on a project. It was solid. I haven’t had any issues yet and I’ve had my Carbon for almost a year now. I haven’t used Pipeline in version 6 yet, but I can imagine it works flawlessly due to the great experience I had with version 4. Pipeline works without a hitch every time. It also allows you to save presets and notes/snapshots of settings which is pretty convenient. So if I want to use my Distressor I just pull up the preset and it sets up the I/O path and the latency I saved. I ping anyway but it never changes, just paranoid I guess.
Does latency never change for you, even when turning on and off your interface or computer?
Latency stays the same for me unless I turn off/on my interface. I'm not sure why.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 7, 2024 17:08:34 GMT -6
Pipeline works without a hitch every time. It also allows you to save presets and notes/snapshots of settings which is pretty convenient. So if I want to use my Distressor I just pull up the preset and it sets up the I/O path and the latency I saved. I ping anyway but it never changes, just paranoid I guess.
Does latency never change for you, even when turning on and off your interface or computer?
Latency stays the same for me unless I turn off/on my interface. I'm not sure why.
When I save as a preset in Pipeline that obviously stays the same. And then when I ping it it's always the same. 72 samples for my ADAT stuff and something like 50 for the direct lines. I still ping it each time just in case though. |
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Post by notneeson on Mar 7, 2024 18:06:33 GMT -6
Here's a question I have that hasn't been asked yet:
Let's say I were to get an Avid HD box used with Digital-only cards in it (I've seen several on eBay) and use my Metric Halo ULN-8 as my A/D/A converters using its AES connections on DB-25 - super easy to hook up to the Avid box. The MH converters (as far as I know) do NOT have the same latency figures as the Avid box or the Lynx or Burl or Rednet, etc. So would PT do its round trip automatic latency for outboard thing and come up with an incorrect number? If so, is there a way to tell PT to "always add 6 samples to the roundtrip calculation," or something like that?
Hey Mark, I have never had to configure that setting (I owned Avid/Digi boxes when I had my HD rig). But, I do recall people would post about manually entering latency specs to correct for their Apogee 16X boxes. Worth looking into. I don't remember them saying it worked great. I think there were varying opinions. What else is new? But, that was back when TDM was king. HDX might be better in this arena, I don't know. |
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Post by Shadowk on Mar 7, 2024 18:37:58 GMT -6
Heheh, I mean, yeah if you cut Avid’s prices in half, they do become more competitive and reasonable. I didn’t know that was a thing. I've not seen the likes of Bill's prices exactly but I've never paid more than 75 - 80% (that includes 20% tax) of retail for anything Avid, ever.. Even then there's usually license, sub (support) deals and extra goodies. |
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Post by ragan on Mar 7, 2024 18:52:25 GMT -6
Heheh, I mean, yeah if you cut Avid’s prices in half, they do become more competitive and reasonable. I didn’t know that was a thing. I've not seen the likes of Bill's prices exactly but I've never paid more than 75 - 80% (that includes 20% tax) of retail for anything Avid, ever.. Even then there's usually license, sub (support) deals and extra goodies. Got it. So you got your Carbon for <$3400 out the door including tax? |
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Post by Shadowk on Mar 7, 2024 19:18:09 GMT -6
I've not seen the likes of Bill's prices exactly but I've never paid more than 75 - 80% (that includes 20% tax) of retail for anything Avid, ever.. Even then there's usually license, sub (support) deals and extra goodies. Got it. So you got your Carbon for <$3400 out the door including tax? Pricing is very different over here (usually far more expensive). I just checked the receipt it roughly translates to $3587.00 for the main unit and $2690.00 for the expansion. That includes 20% tax, not sure if I explained it very well.. Sorry. I'm also not really sure how that compares to US because taxes are different between states and usually less than us right?
List prices here (I just checked the websites) are $4.5K for the main unit and $3.8K for the expansion which does includes 20% tax so what I got is a fair bit better. Not sure how that compares to the US in general though.
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Post by chipbuttie on Mar 7, 2024 19:28:38 GMT -6
I’m also a Logic user and find it works well. I use 2 metric halo uln-8 mkiv’s, I use Logics ping feature for hardware inserts without any problems. I use Protools occasionally but I just know my way around Logic better and don’t find it to be buggy!
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 7, 2024 19:29:01 GMT -6
I've not seen the likes of Bill's prices exactly but I've never paid more than 75 - 80% (that includes 20% tax) of retail for anything Avid, ever.. Even then there's usually license, sub (support) deals and extra goodies. Got it. So you got your Carbon for <$3400 out the door including tax? I got a quote for $3575 ish and $3650 ish...Can't remember exactly. That was before tax, though. But now that I'm thinking Studio actually compensates now, I'm golden!! I'm totally pressing my luck and this is all going to come crashing down on me... |
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,098 
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Post by ericn on Mar 7, 2024 20:09:50 GMT -6
I’m in the middle of moving a whole 4 blocks but it’s still moving so forgive me for not responding for a while, but Bill’s guy is going to be very hard to beat. Now if you go this route, to continue to get these deals. Fing keep your mouths shut about WHO it is in public and unless you are a true asshat do not I repeat do not mention who it is and price specific’s in the same thread! You will notice Bill has never, in all these years mentioned in public who it is because Bill likes these deals!
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?? who would jump on that?
