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Post by Shadowk on Mar 7, 2024 20:36:39 GMT -6
I’m in the middle of moving a whole 4 blocks but it’s still moving so forgive me for not responding for a while, but Bill’s guy is going to be very hard to beat. Now if you go this route, to continue to get these deals. Fing keep your mouths shut about WHO it is in public and unless you are a true asshat do not I repeat do not mention who it is and price specific’s in the same thread! You will notice Bill has never, in all these years mentioned in public who it is because Bill likes these deals! This must be another US thing, I can search 5 websites and usually find something at 20-40% off normal retail and that's available to everyone. It really depends what time of year it is, what the manufacturer feels like and whether the disti or retailer is trying to boot stock at the time. This isn't a secret to anyone and retail prices are a bit of a joke in general. The only difference between a random retailer and who I shop with is consistency, yeah you can get a bit extra off in general if you spend a lot of money but that's not a secret to anyone either. There's even website based automated VIP programs for the major retailers (like the massive multi-million outfits), they do take it away when you don't buy stuff for a while though LOL.
Interesting Eric.. Interesting..
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Mar 7, 2024 20:44:22 GMT -6
I’m in the middle of moving a whole 4 blocks but it’s still moving so forgive me for not responding for a while, but Bill’s guy is going to be very hard to beat. Now if you go this route, to continue to get these deals. Fing keep your mouths shut about WHO it is in public and unless you are a true asshat do not I repeat do not mention who it is and price specific’s in the same thread! You will notice Bill has never, in all these years mentioned in public who it is because Bill likes these deals! This must be another US thing, I can search 5 websites and usually find something at 20-40% off normal retail and that's available to everyone. It really depends what time of year it is, what the manufacturer feels like and whether the disti or retailer is trying to boot stock at the time. This isn't a secret to anyone and retail prices are a bit of a joke in general. The only difference between a random retailer and who I shop with is consistency, yeah you can get a bit extra off in general if you spend a lot of money but that's not a secret to anyone either. There's even website based automated VIP programs for the major retailers (like the massive multi-million outfits), they do take it away when you don't buy stuff for a while though LOL.
Interesting Eric.. Interesting..
Danny, I don’t know the EU/ English commercial codes like I know the US, but here your dealer agreement basically states you publish a price lower than this there are 2 possible outcomes. 1. If we don’t cut you off MAP is null and void for everyone. 2 You are cut off. And what normally Happens tow the line , you are on double secret probation because you sell a ton so toe the line. |
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 7, 2024 22:33:06 GMT -6
OK, so I'm going to give PT Intro a shot and see what it's like working with that for a little bit before doing anything drastic. But still - in anticipation of possibilities ahead, the Big Question to me is: - Carbon OR
- a used HDX card with an old HD interface
Thoughts? Opinions? I don't have that much outboard right now, so Carbon would technically suffice, but help me think through the pros/cons either way. I imagine this might be helpful to others, too... |
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Post by ragan on Mar 7, 2024 22:43:10 GMT -6
What caused the interest, Mark? Just curious. I think I’ve read you saying how you were pretty happy to be out of the PT ecosystem (which I very much get).
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Mar 7, 2024 22:50:09 GMT -6
OK, so I'm going to give PT Intro a shot and see what it's like working with that for a little bit before doing anything drastic. But still - in anticipation of possibilities ahead, the Big Question to me is: - Carbon OR
- a used HDX card with an old HD interface
Thoughts? Opinions? I don't have that much outboard right now, so Carbon would technically suffice, but help me think through the pros/cons either way. I imagine this might be helpful to others, too... Used HDX card and new rack mount thing is where I went when six months later I read that the HD native thing wasn't supported anymore. The Avid guy who's local that sold me the Equinox moved to the Carbon. Maybe just go that route unless you're fully invested in something like a Burl B80 would be my thought. Not that it has been solicited, ha. |
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 7, 2024 23:39:39 GMT -6
What caused the interest, Mark? Just curious. I think I’ve read you saying how you were pretty happy to be out of the PT ecosystem (which I very much get). It is essentially one thing and one thing only. Something I've tried to address in various ways over the years with native DAWs (primarily Logic), but never fully to my satisfaction.
It is latency when tracking audio.
Yes, of course Metric Halo (like plenty of others) have a great DSP mixer, but I hate having to switch to another app whenever I'm trying to adjust my level while tracking, then having to switch back to control the DAW and hit record. Oh, but the level still isn't quite right in my cue mix, so switch over again to fix it, then switch back again to control the DAW. Eh, maybe try panning my guitar out to the side while tracking this part - whoops, gotta switch to the other app again and now switch back to the DAW. Ad nauseam. It's just for the birds, man. So dumb.
I tried for awhile to use a control surface to control JUST the MH mixer so I could grab a fader or pan knob for my cue mix. That worked OK for awhile, but it's still a little weird and makes my brain think about way more than just my performance. And sometimes Logic wants to control my control surface instead of my MH mixer. And then I think maybe it'd be more fun to use the control surface with Logic anyway. Blah blah blah.
I've looked closely at probably a dozen analog mixers to use just as my cue mixer going in, but haven't pulled the trigger on any b/c it's expensive to get one that's clean and quiet -- almost nothing is as quiet as my Halo's onboard DSP mixer.
And a Pro Tools Carbon or HDX system seems like it would solve much (if not all) of that. And then all this talk on here about Pro Tools having truly sorted out their hardware I/O compensation automatically...it's just made me think "What the hell am I doing over here? Using two apps, pinging for hardware compensation..."
Right now I'm at a stage where I'm not mixing for anybody else anytime soon, and I want to make the "plug in a mic, sit down, grab a guitar and start recording NOW" process as quick and easy and SIMPLE as possible to encourage me to start tracking myself again. I was seriously considering an SSL Big Six for awhile there for the same reason. I just want to be an artist again.
But you know, Soren hasn't been doing all that well lately, so it's also possible looking at this stuff is just a way to distract me from the pretty-much-daily-fear that is being his dad.
I remember how easy it was when I worked at Overdub Lane years ago and we used a 24-channel TDM rig with the outputs hardwired to the AMEK Angela and all outboard patched in right there in the bays. It was just so damn easy to get UP and get RECORDING very very QUICKLY. I need easier shit in my life these days. Everything else is so damn hard.
Maybe PT Carbon would make everything easier. Or maybe it would just be a different kind of complicated. I don't know anymore.
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 7, 2024 23:41:10 GMT -6
OK, so I'm going to give PT Intro a shot and see what it's like working with that for a little bit before doing anything drastic. But still - in anticipation of possibilities ahead, the Big Question to me is: - Carbon OR
- a used HDX card with an old HD interface
Thoughts? Opinions? I don't have that much outboard right now, so Carbon would technically suffice, but help me think through the pros/cons either way. I imagine this might be helpful to others, too... Used HDX card and new rack mount thing is where I went when six months later I read that the HD native thing wasn't supported anymore. The Avid guy who's local that sold me the Equinox moved to the Carbon. Maybe just go that route unless you're fully invested in something like a Burl B80 would be my thought. Not that it has been solicited, ha. Oh, it's DEFINITELY been solicited, man - I'm a big fan of your work and methods. |
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Post by prene1 on Mar 8, 2024 0:38:07 GMT -6
On my Apollo x rig I have it set to 96k 1024 ( that’s with tracking and mixing ).
Muted the channels in console. Only have my mic unmuted which the pre has digital I/O via spdif.
No latency issues running hardware unless I add way too many I/O hence why I have a patchbay.
Only time I get issues is on bus tracks running adats in protools using the cranbornes. When using the Apollo’s analog. It’s compensated. Very weird.
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Post by ragan on Mar 8, 2024 0:58:25 GMT -6
What caused the interest, Mark? Just curious. I think I’ve read you saying how you were pretty happy to be out of the PT ecosystem (which I very much get). It is essentially one thing and one thing only. Something I've tried to address in various ways over the years with native DAWs (primarily Logic), but never fully to my satisfaction.
It is latency when tracking audio.
Yes, of course Metric Halo (like plenty of others) have a great DSP mixer, but I hate having to switch to another app whenever I'm trying to adjust my level while tracking, then having to switch back to control the DAW and hit record. Oh, but the level still isn't quite right in my cue mix, so switch over again to fix it, then switch back again to control the DAW. Eh, maybe try panning my guitar out to the side while tracking this part - whoops, gotta switch to the other app again and now switch back to the DAW. Ad nauseam. It's just for the birds, man. So dumb.
I tried for awhile to use a control surface to control JUST the MH mixer so I could grab a fader or pan knob for my cue mix. That worked OK for awhile, but it's still a little weird and makes my brain think about way more than just my performance. And sometimes Logic wants to control my control surface instead of my MH mixer. And then I think maybe it'd be more fun to use the control surface with Logic anyway. Blah blah blah.
I've looked closely at probably a dozen analog mixers to use just as my cue mixer going in, but haven't pulled the trigger on any b/c it's expensive to get one that's clean and quiet -- almost nothing is as quiet as my Halo's onboard DSP mixer.
And a Pro Tools Carbon or HDX system seems like it would solve much (if not all) of that. And then all this talk on here about Pro Tools having truly sorted out their hardware I/O compensation automatically...it's just made me think "What the hell am I doing over here? Using two apps, pinging for hardware compensation..."
Right now I'm at a stage where I'm not mixing for anybody else anytime soon, and I want to make the "plug in a mic, sit down, grab a guitar and start recording NOW" process as quick and easy and SIMPLE as possible to encourage me to start tracking myself again. I was seriously considering an SSL Big Six for awhile there for the same reason. I just want to be an artist again.
But you know, Soren hasn't been doing all that well lately, so it's also possible looking at this stuff is just a way to distract me from the pretty-much-daily-fear that is being his dad.
I remember how easy it was when I worked at Overdub Lane years ago and we used a 24-channel TDM rig with the outputs hardwired to the AMEK Angela and all outboard patched in right there in the bays. It was just so damn easy to get UP and get RECORDING very very QUICKLY. I need easier shit in my life these days. Everything else is so damn hard.
Maybe PT Carbon would make everything easier. Or maybe it would just be a different kind of complicated. I don't know anymore.
Thanks as always for your thoughtfulness and insight, Mark. First, I'm sorry to hear about Soren. You've had a hard road there, as most of us here know. PM sent on that account. Second, I am very very with you on the using two apps to record thing. It's always been clunky. For me it was from Apollo to Symphony, same workflow. Works, and the low latency is great (and a requirement, to me), but it is cumbersome. |
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 8, 2024 2:02:09 GMT -6
OK, so I'm going to give PT Intro a shot and see what it's like working with that for a little bit before doing anything drastic. But still - in anticipation of possibilities ahead, the Big Question to me is: - Carbon OR
- a used HDX card with an old HD interface
Thoughts? Opinions? I don't have that much outboard right now, so Carbon would technically suffice, but help me think through the pros/cons either way. I imagine this might be helpful to others, too... I'd get an HDX card and a used Avid HD IO 16x16. Should be less than a carbon. And you can add more Avid HD IO's as you go. They are going for less than 2k even as low as 1500 these days. Hard to beat that IMO. They aren't anything super specail converter wise, but they don't get in the way. You certainly can't claim your mixes suck because of them haha 1 HDX card will support 4 Avid HD IO's. You can get one of those for 1500 at times. What I paid for mine I think a couple years back. So 3k for a 16x16 system for the hardware. Not bad. If you're wanting ease of use for latency free tracking. Look no further. |
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 8, 2024 2:02:51 GMT -6
Quint You might find this useful video. Also that is a great channel for protools users to follow and check out.
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Mar 8, 2024 8:23:16 GMT -6
Used HDX card and new rack mount thing is where I went when six months later I read that the HD native thing wasn't supported anymore. The Avid guy who's local that sold me the Equinox moved to the Carbon. Maybe just go that route unless you're fully invested in something like a Burl B80 would be my thought. Not that it has been solicited, ha. Oh, it's DEFINITELY been solicited, man - I'm a big fan of your work and methods. You're way too kind the other mark williams So sorry to hear that on Soren. Can't imagine what you're going through after all you've already been through. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 8, 2024 8:41:53 GMT -6
OK, so I'm going to give PT Intro a shot and see what it's like working with that for a little bit before doing anything drastic. But still - in anticipation of possibilities ahead, the Big Question to me is: - Carbon OR
- a used HDX card with an old HD interface
Thoughts? Opinions? I don't have that much outboard right now, so Carbon would technically suffice, but help me think through the pros/cons either way. I imagine this might be helpful to others, too... I'd get an HDX card and a used Avid HD IO 16x16. Should be less than a carbon. And you can add more Avid HD IO's as you go. They are going for less than 2k even as low as 1500 these days. Hard to beat that IMO. They aren't anything super specail converter wise, but they don't get in the way. You certainly can't claim your mixes suck because of them haha 1 HDX card will support 4 Avid HD IO's. You can get one of those for 1500 at times. What I paid for mine I think a couple years back. So 3k for a 16x16 system for the hardware. Not bad. If you're wanting ease of use for latency free tracking. Look no further. Do you not also have to buy PT Ultimate too? |
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Post by Quint on Mar 8, 2024 9:17:07 GMT -6
Quint You might find this useful video. Also that is a great channel for protools users to follow and check out. I'll check it out. Thanks |
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Post by drbill on Mar 8, 2024 9:59:41 GMT -6
You will notice Bill has never, in all these years mentioned in public who it is because Bill likes these deals!  |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 8, 2024 10:18:00 GMT -6
How would they sell them below cost?
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,098
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Post by ericn on Mar 8, 2024 10:35:14 GMT -6
How would they sell them below cost? It’s not really below their cost, it’s below 1st column on the price sheet. You sell enough you get a huge discount, free freight rebates. MAP programs were billed as saving the small dealer, well in many ways they help the big dealer because in most cases small guy is really tied to MAP and don’t make as much on the sale. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 8, 2024 10:42:36 GMT -6
How would they sell them below cost? It’s not really below their cost, it’s below 1st column on the price sheet. You sell enough you get a huge discount, free freight rebates. MAP programs were billed as saving the small dealer, well in many ways they help the big dealer because in most cases small guy is really tied to MAP and don’t make as much on the sale. How low cost wise can those big boxes get? Like - what is usual cost on a hypothetical $1000 product? Is cost usually around 65-70%? How low can they get? |
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 8, 2024 11:18:35 GMT -6
I'd get an HDX card and a used Avid HD IO 16x16. Should be less than a carbon. And you can add more Avid HD IO's as you go. They are going for less than 2k even as low as 1500 these days. Hard to beat that IMO. They aren't anything super specail converter wise, but they don't get in the way. You certainly can't claim your mixes suck because of them haha 1 HDX card will support 4 Avid HD IO's. You can get one of those for 1500 at times. What I paid for mine I think a couple years back. So 3k for a 16x16 system for the hardware. Not bad. If you're wanting ease of use for latency free tracking. Look no further. Do you not also have to buy PT Ultimate too? Yeah, that's the thing - I would still have to buy PT Ultimate (or Studio, I guess?), and also some kind of external PCIe chassis with Thunderbolt, like the Sonnet. I do have an old Intel Mac Pro that's been updated, but I can't realistically re-integrate it into my setup with my current software needs. This is making the Carbon more attractive if I end up deciding to go the Pro Tools direction. Here's another question I thought of: Is it possible to sell one's perpetual license to another user (license transfer, in other words)? If I got a Carbon with the perpetual Ultimate license included, and decided a year from now that it wasn't the right move after all, could I sell the license along with the Carbon? |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 8, 2024 11:26:14 GMT -6
Do you not also have to buy PT Ultimate too? Yeah, that's the thing - I would still have to buy PT Ultimate (or Studio, I guess?), and also some kind of external PCIe chassis with Thunderbolt, like the Sonnet. I do have an old Intel Mac Pro that's been updated, but I can't realistically re-integrate it into my setup with my current software needs. This is making the Carbon more attractive if I end up deciding to go the Pro Tools direction. Here's another question I thought of: Is it possible to sell one's perpetual license to another user (license transfer, in other words)? If I got a Carbon with the perpetual Ultimate license included, and decided a year from now that it wasn't the right move after all, could I sell the license along with the Carbon? Maybe you should just do the $599 subscription? Or maybe it’s $699. It’s so freaking confusing. I JUST paid for a $599 Pro Tools Studio subscription because o didn’t realize I had converted my old perp license to subscription somewhere along the way. Like - if you were to get the subscription at $699, I think you would then have to pay $599 per year to keep it running. If you buy the $1499 perpetual license, you would then have to pay $399 per year to get updates and support. If you didn’t want to update and are a perpetual license owner, you can just stay there and not pay. |
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 8, 2024 11:33:32 GMT -6
Yeah, that's the thing - I would still have to buy PT Ultimate (or Studio, I guess?), and also some kind of external PCIe chassis with Thunderbolt, like the Sonnet. I do have an old Intel Mac Pro that's been updated, but I can't realistically re-integrate it into my setup with my current software needs. This is making the Carbon more attractive if I end up deciding to go the Pro Tools direction. Here's another question I thought of: Is it possible to sell one's perpetual license to another user (license transfer, in other words)? If I got a Carbon with the perpetual Ultimate license included, and decided a year from now that it wasn't the right move after all, could I sell the license along with the Carbon? Maybe you should just do the $599 subscription? Or maybe it’s $699. It’s so freaking confusing. I JUST paid for a $599 Pro Tools Studio subscription because o didn’t realize I had converted my old perp license to subscription somewhere along the way. Like - if you were to get the subscription at $699, I think you would then have to pay $599 per year to keep it running. If you buy the $1499 perpetual license, you would then have to pay $399 per year to get updates and support. If you didn’t want to update and are a perpetual license owner, you can just stay there and not pay. Right now, I'm thinking I'll use PT Intro for a bit and see what I think. It's apparently the same except for track limitations (and bus limitations) and some other things I wouldn't need to test-drive. Ultimately, if I were to make the jump, I'd be doing it for the integrated DSP mixer within the DAW. Otherwise, I'm perfectly happy with Logic. I should probably give Luna a spin, too - since it also can do the integrated DSP mixer if you have an Apollo. No hardware inserts, though. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr |
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Post by ragan on Mar 8, 2024 11:43:39 GMT -6
Yeah, I’m kind of holding off any significant moves until I get a better sense of whether LUNA is going to grow into a fully mature DAW (HW inserts being the big thing right now).
Part of me is drawn to someone doing a new DAW from the ground up. Good software dev is so expensive and I’m certain all of these legacy DAWs have a lot of janky workarounds and fixes and things stacked on top of decades old code because DAW needs have changed dramatically over time and it’s short term cheaper/easier to mod and patch existing code bases rather than tear it up and start over. So if LUNA continues to develop, part of me thinks it could end up being less buggy and more streamlined for modern users, compared to something that’s been around for a couple decades and patched a million times.
That’s a lot of speculation though, obvs.
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 8, 2024 11:49:07 GMT -6
I'd get an HDX card and a used Avid HD IO 16x16. Should be less than a carbon. And you can add more Avid HD IO's as you go. They are going for less than 2k even as low as 1500 these days. Hard to beat that IMO. They aren't anything super specail converter wise, but they don't get in the way. You certainly can't claim your mixes suck because of them haha 1 HDX card will support 4 Avid HD IO's. You can get one of those for 1500 at times. What I paid for mine I think a couple years back. So 3k for a 16x16 system for the hardware. Not bad. If you're wanting ease of use for latency free tracking. Look no further. Do you not also have to buy PT Ultimate too? yes you do. That was 3k for hardware which is what I was saying. Still not too bad. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 8, 2024 11:56:09 GMT -6
Yeah, I’m kind of holding off any significant moves until I get a better sense of whether LUNA is going to grow into a fully mature DAW (HW inserts being the big thing right now). Part of me is drawn to someone doing a new DAW from the ground up. Good software dev is so expensive and I’m certain all of these legacy DAWs have a lot of janky workarounds and fixes and things stacked on top of decades old code because DAW needs have changed dramatically over time and it’s short term cheaper/easier to mod and patch existing code bases rather than tear it up and start over. So if LUNA continues to develop, part of me thinks it could end up being less buggy and more streamlined for modern users, compared to something that’s been around for a couple decades and patched a million times. That’s a lot of speculation though, obvs. I’d feel pretty shitty if I bought all this stuff and then three months from now - “Huge Luna Update! HWDC completely compensated…” That would make me sad in my heart. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 8, 2024 11:57:18 GMT -6
Yeah, I’m kind of holding off any significant moves until I get a better sense of whether LUNA is going to grow into a fully mature DAW (HW inserts being the big thing right now). Part of me is drawn to someone doing a new DAW from the ground up. Good software dev is so expensive and I’m certain all of these legacy DAWs have a lot of janky workarounds and fixes and things stacked on top of decades old code because DAW needs have changed dramatically over time and it’s short term cheaper/easier to mod and patch existing code bases rather than tear it up and start over. So if LUNA continues to develop, part of me thinks it could end up being less buggy and more streamlined for modern users, compared to something that’s been around for a couple decades and patched a million times. That’s a lot of speculation though, obvs. Didn’t they supposedly rebuild the PT engine like 7-10 years ago? Supposedly new coding? |
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