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Post by Dan on Mar 8, 2024 12:12:12 GMT -6
Yeah, I’m kind of holding off any significant moves until I get a better sense of whether LUNA is going to grow into a fully mature DAW (HW inserts being the big thing right now). Part of me is drawn to someone doing a new DAW from the ground up. Good software dev is so expensive and I’m certain all of these legacy DAWs have a lot of janky workarounds and fixes and things stacked on top of decades old code because DAW needs have changed dramatically over time and it’s short term cheaper/easier to mod and patch existing code bases rather than tear it up and start over. So if LUNA continues to develop, part of me thinks it could end up being less buggy and more streamlined for modern users, compared to something that’s been around for a couple decades and patched a million times. That’s a lot of speculation though, obvs. Didn’t they supposedly rebuild the PT engine like 7-10 years ago? Supposedly new coding? They ditched TDM for HDX. Entirely different audio engine. |
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Post by ragan on Mar 8, 2024 12:18:50 GMT -6
Yeah, I’m kind of holding off any significant moves until I get a better sense of whether LUNA is going to grow into a fully mature DAW (HW inserts being the big thing right now). Part of me is drawn to someone doing a new DAW from the ground up. Good software dev is so expensive and I’m certain all of these legacy DAWs have a lot of janky workarounds and fixes and things stacked on top of decades old code because DAW needs have changed dramatically over time and it’s short term cheaper/easier to mod and patch existing code bases rather than tear it up and start over. So if LUNA continues to develop, part of me thinks it could end up being less buggy and more streamlined for modern users, compared to something that’s been around for a couple decades and patched a million times. That’s a lot of speculation though, obvs. I’d feel pretty shitty if I bought all this stuff and then three months from now - “Huge Luna Update! HWDC completely compensated…” That would make me sad in my heart. Seems like it’s going to happen, whether it’s 3 months from now would be the part that seems pretty up for grabs. |
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,098 
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Post by ericn on Mar 8, 2024 12:31:33 GMT -6
It’s not really below their cost, it’s below 1st column on the price sheet. You sell enough you get a huge discount, free freight rebates. MAP programs were billed as saving the small dealer, well in many ways they help the big dealer because in most cases small guy is really tied to MAP and don’t make as much on the sale. How low cost wise can those big boxes get? Like - what is usual cost on a hypothetical $1000 product? Is cost usually around 65-70%? How low can they get? The rule is there is no rule every manufacturer has their own idea of the street price mark up should be. In the grand old days of tape the NY 52nd st guys would sell video gear at 5-7 % over their cost because Sony, JVC and Panasonic had huge end of the year rebates and if you ordered a pallet of stuff free freight. They would live off the huge rebate because they moved so much. How important was free freight and hitting that full pallet? We would often special order a Sony product and fill the pallet with Headphones or Tape. |
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Post by notneeson on Mar 8, 2024 12:35:13 GMT -6
Yeah, I’m kind of holding off any significant moves until I get a better sense of whether LUNA is going to grow into a fully mature DAW (HW inserts being the big thing right now). Part of me is drawn to someone doing a new DAW from the ground up. Good software dev is so expensive and I’m certain all of these legacy DAWs have a lot of janky workarounds and fixes and things stacked on top of decades old code because DAW needs have changed dramatically over time and it’s short term cheaper/easier to mod and patch existing code bases rather than tear it up and start over. So if LUNA continues to develop, part of me thinks it could end up being less buggy and more streamlined for modern users, compared to something that’s been around for a couple decades and patched a million times. That’s a lot of speculation though, obvs. Didn’t they supposedly rebuild the PT engine like 7-10 years ago? Supposedly new coding? It makes sense to me as a former HD user with time on HDX rigs. The whole hybrid thing is quite different. |
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Post by subspace on Mar 8, 2024 12:47:19 GMT -6
The hybrid engine came out in 2020, as it was re-designed for Carbon's release, then became available to HDX users. Carbon also shipped with PT Studio originally, Ultimate is not necessary for using it's full HDX functionality. Existing Carbon customers all got an additional free copy of Ultimate when they switched over to shipping Carbon with Ultimate. Guess which one generates more annual revenue in maintenance and support? I've never activated my extra Ultimate license, we'll see if they introduce a new feature differentiator down the road.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 8, 2024 12:49:36 GMT -6
I’d feel pretty shitty if I bought all this stuff and then three months from now - “Huge Luna Update! HWDC completely compensated…” That would make me sad in my heart. Seems like it’s going to happen, whether it’s 3 months from now would be the part that seems pretty up for grabs. Then I can start multiple threads proclaiming the world ending because I'm on shitty PT Ultimate and the only way I could ever be able to do anything again would be to buy a new apollo with HWDC... |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 8, 2024 12:50:26 GMT -6
The hybrid engine came out in 2020, as it was re-designed for Carbon's release, then became available to HDX users. Carbon also shipped with PT Studio originally, Ultimate is not necessary for using it's full HDX functionality. Existing Carbon customers all got an additional free copy of Ultimate when they switched over to shipping Carbon with Ultimate. Guess which one generates more annual revenue in maintenance and support? I've never activated my extra Ultimate license, we'll see if they introduce a new feature differentiator down the road. Wait...I can use Studio with Carbon and have all the HWDC? |
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Post by subspace on Mar 8, 2024 12:52:20 GMT -6
The hybrid engine came out in 2020, as it was re-designed for Carbon's release, then became available to HDX users. Carbon also shipped with PT Studio originally, Ultimate is not necessary for using it's full HDX functionality. Existing Carbon customers all got an additional free copy of Ultimate when they switched over to shipping Carbon with Ultimate. Guess which one generates more annual revenue in maintenance and support? I've never activated my extra Ultimate license, we'll see if they introduce a new feature differentiator down the road. Wait...I can use Studio with Carbon and have all the HWDC? Yes, it was literally designed for it. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 8, 2024 13:05:02 GMT -6
Wait...I can use Studio with Carbon and have all the HWDC? Yes, it was literally designed for it. Well this changes the game a bit. Is there any number for Avid that I can use to confirm? Not that I don't trust you - I just want to have a name of someone so I could return if the info isn't right...although I'd probably just spend the $599 for the Ultimate sub. I just spoke to a new guy running Westlake Pro here in Nashville and he says hardware delay comp in Studio was one of the new features added several updates ago. If that's the case - and it's actually reliable - why the hell am I just not keeping what I have? What do you guys think of the ADDA? I'd imagine it's better than the Apollo AD...just wonder about the DA? |
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Post by ragan on Mar 8, 2024 13:11:21 GMT -6
Yes, it was literally designed for it. Well this changes the game a bit. Is there any number for Avid that I can use to confirm? Not that I don't trust you - I just want to have a name of someone so I could return if the info isn't right...although I'd probably just spend the $599 for the Ultimate sub. I just spoke to a new guy running Westlake Pro here in Nashville and he says hardware delay comp in Studio was one of the new features added several updates ago. If that's the case - and it's actually reliable - why the hell am I just not keeping what I have? What do you guys think of the ADDA? I'd imagine it's better than the Apollo AD...just wonder about the DA? This is interesting. Like I mentioned in the other thread, I had noticed that HW insert delay comp seemed to start working awhile back, without me entering values into I/O settings. I had chalked it up to the fact that the whole thing has been variable and flaky and weird for so long, but in the back of my mind had thought “I need to run some more loopback prints and compare…why does this seem to be totally sync’d now?” Why is Avid not shouting this from the rooftops? I guess, prob because they want to sell Carbons and HDX rigs. |
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Post by ragan on Mar 8, 2024 13:12:27 GMT -6
I need to try parallel drum comp again.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 8, 2024 13:19:26 GMT -6
Well this changes the game a bit. Is there any number for Avid that I can use to confirm? Not that I don't trust you - I just want to have a name of someone so I could return if the info isn't right...although I'd probably just spend the $599 for the Ultimate sub. I just spoke to a new guy running Westlake Pro here in Nashville and he says hardware delay comp in Studio was one of the new features added several updates ago. If that's the case - and it's actually reliable - why the hell am I just not keeping what I have? What do you guys think of the ADDA? I'd imagine it's better than the Apollo AD...just wonder about the DA? This is interesting. Like I mentioned in the other thread, I had noticed that HW insert delay comp seemed to start working awhile back, without me entering values into I/O settings. I had chalked it up to the fact that the whole thing has been variable and flaky and weird for so long, but in the back of my mind had thought “I need to run some more loopback prints and compare…why does this seem to be totally sync’d now?” Why is Avid not shouting this from the rooftops? I guess, prob because they want to sell Carbons and HDX rigs. That's what has me paranoid. It wouldn't shock me if it's a feature now, but isn't very reliable if it's not Avid HW. And yeah - if this is the case, this is one of the biggest features I can remember... |
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Post by subspace on Mar 8, 2024 13:23:16 GMT -6
Studio and Ultimate are literally the same installer, there's an advanced automation feature, some video features and the HD drivers for the old HDX cards locked behind a paywall, otherwise, it's same - same now. Avid is not going to down sell you, those annual maintenance renewals cover their nut and Ultimate is the biggest. Hence, Carbon comes bundled with Ultimate perpetual now.
The conversion retired my MOTU 16A easily, and I just replaced a guy's two Avid HD i/os with a new Carbon he had delivered yesterday, as he had been borrowing my second unit to complete a project. I gave him a two hour overview of it, including changing his 24/96 PT template to 32/96. I dig the 32 bit float right through conversion on both ends, but if you already dither all your all DAW inserts there wouldn't be as great an audible difference, he did not.
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 8, 2024 13:46:20 GMT -6
Yes, it was literally designed for it. Well this changes the game a bit. Is there any number for Avid that I can use to confirm? Not that I don't trust you - I just want to have a name of someone so I could return if the info isn't right...although I'd probably just spend the $599 for the Ultimate sub. I just spoke to a new guy running Westlake Pro here in Nashville and he says hardware delay comp in Studio was one of the new features added several updates ago. If that's the case - and it's actually reliable - why the hell am I just not keeping what I have? What do you guys think of the ADDA? I'd imagine it's better than the Apollo AD...just wonder about the DA? John, if you buy a Carbon NEW, it actually comes with a perpetual Ultimate license. But since you already have Studio, you could actually buy a used Carbon off someone for less $ - you wouldn't need the software license. I've seen a couple of good prices on used ones... |
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 8, 2024 13:49:01 GMT -6
Yes, it was literally designed for it. [...] What do you guys think of the ADDA? I'd imagine it's better than the Apollo AD...just wonder about the DA? Check out Shadowk 's "Pro Tools Carbon Master Thread". He goes into some detail about the sonics. And the Carbon also has S/PDIF out - you could keep using your Burl if you prefer it. But overall reports are that the Carbon sounds really good. realgearonline.com/thread/16843/pro-tools-carbon-master-threadEDIT: I was wrong. No S/PDIF. Optical, though. I hate optical. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 8, 2024 13:53:43 GMT -6
Well this changes the game a bit. Is there any number for Avid that I can use to confirm? Not that I don't trust you - I just want to have a name of someone so I could return if the info isn't right...although I'd probably just spend the $599 for the Ultimate sub. I just spoke to a new guy running Westlake Pro here in Nashville and he says hardware delay comp in Studio was one of the new features added several updates ago. If that's the case - and it's actually reliable - why the hell am I just not keeping what I have? What do you guys think of the ADDA? I'd imagine it's better than the Apollo AD...just wonder about the DA? John, if you buy a Carbon NEW, it actually comes with a perpetual Ultimate license. But since you already have Studio, you could actually buy a used Carbon off someone for less $ - you wouldn't need the software license. I've seen a couple of good prices on used ones... Yeah - I've got a line on one for $2599 before tax... What I was wondering is if I would be missing any features with studio...but it doesn't really sound like it? Even if I wanted to do the Ultimate thing, I could do the yearly sub for $599 and get out the door at around $3700 or whatever...still better than new at $4100 ish out the door. Of course, I'd be getting a perp license with a new one. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 8, 2024 13:54:02 GMT -6
Studio and Ultimate are literally the same installer, there's an advanced automation feature, some video features and the HD drivers for the old HDX cards locked behind a paywall, otherwise, it's same - same now. Avid is not going to down sell you, those annual maintenance renewals cover their nut and Ultimate is the biggest. Hence, Carbon comes bundled with Ultimate perpetual now. The conversion retired my MOTU 16A easily, and I just replaced a guy's two Avid HD i/os with a new Carbon he had delivered yesterday, as he had been borrowing my second unit to complete a project. I gave him a two hour overview of it, including changing his 24/96 PT template to 32/96. I dig the 32 bit float right through conversion on both ends, but if you already dither all your all DAW inserts there wouldn't be as great an audible difference, he did not. Wow...I really liked the conversion on the Motu too. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 8, 2024 13:55:12 GMT -6
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Post by subspace on Mar 8, 2024 14:04:16 GMT -6
I told you so.
(Why be a bigger man, when this size fits just right?)
I got a B-stock without software for $1,900 on <deleted> last September, they seem to have some kind of liquidation deal... <deleted vendor is a vocal range a bit higher than you..>
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Post by Shadowk on Mar 8, 2024 14:50:45 GMT -6
The hybrid engine came out in 2020, as it was re-designed for Carbon's release, then became available to HDX users. Carbon also shipped with PT Studio originally, Ultimate is not necessary for using it's full HDX functionality. Existing Carbon customers all got an additional free copy of Ultimate when they switched over to shipping Carbon with Ultimate. Guess which one generates more annual revenue in maintenance and support? I've never activated my extra Ultimate license, we'll see if they introduce a new feature differentiator down the road. Wait...I can use Studio with Carbon and have all the HWDC? Question is would you use Studio with Carbon? It comes with a free Pro Tools Ultimate perpetual license and a year's support / update sub. Once you find a stable, consistent release stick to it like glue and let that sub expire. The only time I ever restart a sub or whatever is when I upgrade my PC / MAC.. |
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Post by subspace on Mar 8, 2024 15:23:39 GMT -6
Wait...I can use Studio with Carbon and have all the HWDC? Question is would you use Studio with Carbon? It comes with a free Pro Tools Ultimate perpetual license and a year's support / update sub. Once you find a stable, consistent release stick to it like glue and let that sub expire. The only time I ever restart a sub or whatever is when I upgrade my PC / MAC.. Those jerks keep adding functions to the Carbon with new releases though, the remote preamp control wasn't there when I bought in 2020, the 7.1.2 Atmos monitor control, Pre expansion mode... I sat on PT12 for years but owning the Carbon kind of did me in, welcome to having software integrated hardware. |
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 8, 2024 15:58:28 GMT -6
Yeah, I’m kind of holding off any significant moves until I get a better sense of whether LUNA is going to grow into a fully mature DAW (HW inserts being the big thing right now). Part of me is drawn to someone doing a new DAW from the ground up. Good software dev is so expensive and I’m certain all of these legacy DAWs have a lot of janky workarounds and fixes and things stacked on top of decades old code because DAW needs have changed dramatically over time and it’s short term cheaper/easier to mod and patch existing code bases rather than tear it up and start over. So if LUNA continues to develop, part of me thinks it could end up being less buggy and more streamlined for modern users, compared to something that’s been around for a couple decades and patched a million times. That’s a lot of speculation though, obvs. Didn’t they supposedly rebuild the PT engine like 7-10 years ago? Supposedly new coding? only a couple years ago when Mac OS ditched 32bit processing. |
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 8, 2024 16:00:55 GMT -6
Yes, it was literally designed for it. Well this changes the game a bit. Is there any number for Avid that I can use to confirm? Not that I don't trust you - I just want to have a name of someone so I could return if the info isn't right...although I'd probably just spend the $599 for the Ultimate sub. I just spoke to a new guy running Westlake Pro here in Nashville and he says hardware delay comp in Studio was one of the new features added several updates ago. If that's the case - and it's actually reliable - why the hell am I just not keeping what I have? What do you guys think of the ADDA? I'd imagine it's better than the Apollo AD...just wonder about the DA? Carbon uses DAD converters which are among some of the best out there right now. Miles better than the Apollo crap(sorry i do not like the sound of apollo's). |
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Post by brenta on Mar 8, 2024 18:36:30 GMT -6
Interesting that PT Studio has HWDC now. But that almost certainly only works with Avid interfaces, right?
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Post by ragan on Mar 8, 2024 19:04:44 GMT -6
Interesting that PT Studio has HWDC now. But that almost certainly only works with Avid interfaces, right? and I both noticed it with non-Avid interfaces. I’m on Symphony MKII, he’s on Apollo. I haven’t done any testing, just noticed it seemed to start working. John (I think) confirmed it with someone in the know. |
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