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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 1, 2024 17:03:15 GMT -6
Distort the hell out of it. Fake pre, fake console, tape plugs, reverb sends and crush the reverb with vulf comp. Scoop the the big room samples like ice cream. Preprocessed samples are mixed by wusses to be what they think the musician wants, not what works in a mix. So they barely eq and then process it, making everything gross more prominent. Where on a raw drum you might need or it might get on the way in a -12 db cut on an api 550 at 500hz, on a processed sample you might need -30 db. Strip mine those drums. You don't have to play ball with anything major label that demands conformity. These are amateurs. Just make it sound cool. If you have some of the crazy Fuse or PSP or Goodhertz plugs, use them. Throw SDRR2 on them. Decapitate them. They're fake. Use Molot to make them a machine gun or sound like a drum played by a lightsaber. Use the Omnipressor or Presswerk to totally change the envelope into some reverse hammering machine. Use your Pulsar 1178 to distort the living hell out of everything on 8x oversampling with the additional distortions. Just eq, distort, and render it. Ride faders. I'll send him to you...because I'm not doing that shit. |
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Post by chessparov on Jan 1, 2024 17:11:01 GMT -6
@ John regarding Dan's post above. Totally agree, but it's got to be probably the funniest response so far. I CAN'T behave like that. My tattered reputation precedes me. I won't get taken-seriously.  |
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Post by chessparov on Jan 1, 2024 17:12:28 GMT -6
There are so many right answers and so much wisdom in this thread! Don't be afraid to walk away. Or run. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 1, 2024 17:14:42 GMT -6
Those are tough...people put in amateur effort on the front end and expect some professional miracle at the end. The only thing I'd recommend is that when I get a bunch of VI stuff, I'll use room reverb to try and make it sound more real. Sometimes it's UAD ocean way, sometimes Seventh Heaven or Altiverb. Yes, I definitely have printed peoples blandly and poorly recorded tracks through outboard pres, EQs and compressors as well. It can make a huge difference Adding tape modulation plugs or cool 'vibe' and saturation can make things feel way more purposeful and intentional- For John's troublesome project though, I'd guess 'vibey and saturated' is probably not what he wants when he says 'more professional'... Most of the folks I work with are in the alternative, indie, psych genres and looove 'vibe'. Haha. But either way, even printing the stems through some nice outboard pres and comps can certainly bring some life to things. Unfortunately, I don't think this is a matter of "mix it better" - and I'm not at all being weird about any suggestions...I just think this is a case of unrealistic expectations. "More professional" is code for "make this song less amateur in all aspects." There's a big difference in making a pro product more pro and making an amateur product more pro. And in this case, it's not that the song is just awful - it's constructed properly - it's that the tracks and playing are amateur...he's a decent singer and the vocal wasn't a problem. The problem is you have 4 drum tracks from what sounds like some cinematic drum sampler. Track titles are like "Bang" and "Boom" and then each one has a kick and snare that over lap...and the clips were cut off drastically. And then there's a fake acoustic track...and and Ah Choir, Piano, bass...and that's about all. I know I'm missing something...Anyway - there's not much to work with. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 1, 2024 17:20:17 GMT -6
I'm going to take a different stance here. I've been through this before. Stop trying to improve the source tracks. Even replacing a few sounds with superior virtual instruments, if you have them, will yield a minimal improvement. Get the tracks to play together by using EQ and compression, but don't try to shape the tracks into something they're not. And then, here's the important part. Automate the hell out of it. Make sure to bring out to the front what's good about each section. Magnify whatever emotion the song is trying to evoke. With bad source material, you will be automating more than usual. However, accepting that you can't do much for the sound itself is primordial. It's also liberating. Good mixes that sound shitty are a thing. As for what to do communication-wise with this artist, you have to set the right expectations before moving another fader. Once you are done, take the mix through something like the Silver Bullet. A pair of Highland Dynamics BG2 units with no compression (available on Access Analog) add a lot of mojo, soften rogue transients, and are ideal for this kind of salvage work. I don't think I'm conveying the issue correctly. I don't think this is particularly an issue with the execution of the mix...but maybe I'm being completely blind here. Like - I don't think I can run this through a silver bullet and he go - Dude - nailed it. I just think it's a managing expectations issue. Oh - and yeah - I had the original session and he sent me wav files of everything too...I replaced some sounds...actually thought his piano sounded better than Keyscape, so I kept the audio. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 1, 2024 17:21:03 GMT -6
I'm going to take a different stance here. I've been through this before. Stop trying to improve the source tracks. Even replacing a few sounds with superior virtual instruments, if you have them, will yield a minimal improvement. Get the tracks to play together by using EQ and compression, but don't try to shape the tracks into something they're not. And then, here's the important part. Automate the hell out of it. Make sure to bring out to the front what's good about each section. Magnify whatever emotion the song is trying to evoke. With bad source material, you will be automating more than usual. However, accepting that you can't do much for the sound itself is primordial. It's also liberating. Good mixes that sound shitty are a thing. As for what to do communication-wise with this artist, you have to set the right expectations before moving another fader. Once you are done, take the mix through something like the Silver Bullet. A pair of Highland Dynamics BG2 units with no compression (available on Access Analog) add a lot of mojo, soften rogue transients, and are ideal for this kind of salvage work. Oh - and that's a shit load of work for a cheap ass mix |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 1, 2024 17:23:10 GMT -6
Something else that has helped me massively on projects like this is getting drums split out when they are VI drums so that I'm not just trying to mix a stereo track of drums. So if they use Steven Slate drums or something like that I'll send them a tutorial if they don't know how on splitting those out to separate kick, snare, overheads, etc... Much more flexibility and that way I can blend in samples I've made here to add more realism. Also, get all the midi tracks if you can. Changing pianos and strings in particular to libraries I have has helped a ton. Not completely changing the intent of what they were going for but if they used a baby grand sound, I probably have a much better library available. Time consuming yes, but I've found it's less time than trying to mix garbage tracks. The end result also has a much higher ceiling. I forgot to mention this has been at least 50% of my work since 2020. Before, it was simply a "no" from me or charging by the hour but the harsh reality is that most people are broke. I hate it has come to this but I also don't see how it turns around in this industry any time soon. More and more people are going to be recording/producing themselves and God help us all when they start sending us AI tracks in place of the VI tracks 🤣 4 drums |
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Post by noob on Jan 1, 2024 17:26:04 GMT -6
I doubt you're looking for more mixing advice, but if the drums suck, you can try to pick one element from the drums that serves as the main rhythmic device (maybe a just one kick). Focus on that element, the vocals, and the bassline, mute everything else and get those three sounding as clean "professional" as possible. Then just spice all the other elements of the song in, in a more ambient/atmospheric way.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 1, 2024 17:31:37 GMT -6
Doesn’t sound like this will work for your client Johnkenn, but I usually charge new clients half upfront, half after a clip (or watermarked full mix), and then one round of minor revisions free of charge. Note: minor revisions = make the vocal louder, make the mix brighter, etc. NOT “I’m completely unhappy, can you redo the whole thing from scratch”. Any subsequent revisions billed according to scope. Of course, with long term clients, I might be a little more lenient, but even then, I was once burned by a 10-year client with whom I had worked on hundreds of projects. Over a $300 job, to boot. On the production side of things, if I were sent a bunch of corny sounding VIs to mix, I would replace them with better VIs and/or record parts from scratch. In the hustle and bustle of xmas, I actually started to mix and realized I hadn't collect half up front...but was like screw it. Since he hasn't paid me anything, I'm just going to bail. |
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Post by notneeson on Jan 1, 2024 17:32:06 GMT -6
It sounds like they don’t need a mixer, they need a producer with a Time Machine.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 1, 2024 17:36:40 GMT -6
I doubt you're looking for more mixing advice, but if the drums suck, you can try to pick one element from the drums that serves as the main rhythmic device (maybe a just one kick). Focus on that element, the vocals, and the bassline, mute everything else and get those three sounding as clean "professional" as possible. Then just spice all the other elements of the song in, in a more ambient/atmospheric way. I should post a clip of the drums...might bring things into perspective. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 1, 2024 17:40:31 GMT -6
I doubt you're looking for more mixing advice, but if the drums suck, you can try to pick one element from the drums that serves as the main rhythmic device (maybe a just one kick). Focus on that element, the vocals, and the bassline, mute everything else and get those three sounding as clean "professional" as possible. Then just spice all the other elements of the song in, in a more ambient/atmospheric way. Not trying to sound like a prick, but like I said - I don't THINK it's a mixing issue. I'm talking to myself here, but I've done this enough and know how to get where I want to go...but there's no where to go with this. I'm sure someone could add some spice somewhere - maybe mix it on a console - and it sound better, but...this is a Pabst Blue Ribbon recording wanting Dom results. |
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Post by gwlee7 on Jan 1, 2024 17:42:32 GMT -6
I know from experience that John can in fact polish a turd  . |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 1, 2024 17:45:17 GMT -6
I know from experience that John can in fact polish a turd . Ha whatever man...yall sounded great! |
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Post by chessparov on Jan 1, 2024 17:55:00 GMT -6
If this_ever_inspires an RGO group Spoof Record. Ala "Worst of RGO". I'm all in!! (You should hear my "Dylan goes Motown"). Then again. Chris |
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Post by seawell on Jan 1, 2024 17:57:08 GMT -6
I doubt you're looking for more mixing advice, but if the drums suck, you can try to pick one element from the drums that serves as the main rhythmic device (maybe a just one kick). Focus on that element, the vocals, and the bassline, mute everything else and get those three sounding as clean "professional" as possible. Then just spice all the other elements of the song in, in a more ambient/atmospheric way. I should post a clip of the drums...might bring things into perspective. See if you can get permission to post the session here and we'll have a RGO Turd Polishing Mix Contest! 🤣 |
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Post by gwlee7 on Jan 1, 2024 18:00:14 GMT -6
I know from experience that John can in fact polish a turd . Ha whatever man...yall sounded great! Trying to get those slackers to finish up some stuff so we can send you more. It’s like pulling teeth. So I may also press ahead with some other songs that are solely mine. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 1, 2024 18:00:29 GMT -6
I don't know if my ego could take it if one of you guys made it sound like Dark Side of the Moon...
although, don't think that's possible.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 1, 2024 18:00:56 GMT -6
Ha whatever man...yall sounded great! Trying to get those slackers to finish up some stuff so we can send you more. It’s like pulling teeth. So I may also press anead with some other songs that are solely mine. Bring it! |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2024 18:11:43 GMT -6
I’m just opening up the conversation because maybe one of you guys has a better approach than I do… I’ve found - and tell me if I’m wrong on this - there’s only so much that can be improved when you are working with canned sounds. This is something I've been looking into recently at a much deeper level, you can probably tell from another thread I've posted. Some artificial dance, electronic etc. from the bigger budget acts are extremely high fidelity generally created from well known samples, they are IMV very impressive. However after watching the how to YT videos the extent required to get to that level is a lot. Everything from the arrangement, sample selection, production to mixing techniques etc. is meticulous. In short, yes you can shape a mix to sound nothing like the original but it's also almost like the mix is accounted for when the song is arranged.
This sort of music is a built up from the ground approach and won't ever be achieved with an acoustic mindset.
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Post by sean on Jan 1, 2024 18:13:54 GMT -6
To use ericn term of low end clients, in 15 years there really are only two types:
1: Those who are incredibly grateful for your time and contributions and will give you zero notes because they know that the music they've made is really just for themselves and to share with a few friends and family. If they are nice people I don't mind doing these projects, knowing full well no one is going to hear it and I'm not going to share with anyone either.
2: Those with unrealistic views of their own talent that think they are better than they are, and will never be satisfied and don't understand why their record doesn't sound like Bruce Springsteen or something because in their mind they are equally talented. These projects are incredibly difficult mentally and are often soul crushing, because you begin doubting yourself and you're stuck trying to turn chicken shit into chicken salad and no matter how hard you work on it it's still chicken shit and no one wants to consume chicken shit. So, ultimately it was not worth your time, no one is going to hear and they few that do aren't going enjoy it anyway. That's harsh, but true, and when you come across these projects it's best just to say "I'm not the person for the job"
Also, if it's someone you don't know, definitely listen to it first before taking the gig.
Last advice...if the client is the singer and songwriter, just turn his vocal up a couple dB louder than you think it should be and they might be happy. Because really the only thing they want to hear are themselves.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 1, 2024 18:15:13 GMT -6
It sounds like they don’t need a mixer, they need a producer with a Time Machine. This is why I left the world of low end mixer, you end up being low dollar producer for little or no extra $$. Everybody is cool till the talk of how much it’s going to cost to get it to where they want. You hear a lot of “ but my friend thought the tracks were great” awesome then if he has the ability to judge how they would work in a mix why isn’t he mixing it? The biggest problem is the friends don’t want to damage the relationship by being truthful and nobody wants the big shot pro to tell them they suck. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 1, 2024 18:26:07 GMT -6
It sounds like they don’t need a mixer, they need a producer with a Time Machine. This is why I left the world of low end mixer, you end up being low dollar producer for little or no extra $$. Everybody is cool till the talk of how much it’s going to cost to get it to where they want. You hear a lot of “ but my friend thought the tracks were great” awesome then if he has the ability to judge how they would work in a mix why isn’t he mixing it? The biggest problem is the friends don’t want to damage the relationship by being truthful and nobody wants the big shot pro to tell them they suck. Yeah - I used to want projects where I could replace sounds and "show them how much better I could make it sound!" But I've come to realize that's just borrowing trouble. I'm not getting paid to help you construct the song...sorry. I've also found that a lot of lower priced clients don't like delay on a vocal lol. I've taken the time to add in cool vocal delays before - more than one delay for 1/4, 1/  etc. and every single one of them were like "what's the repeating echo thing?" So I don't do anything they don't ask for now. Now - I do a little of lining up and phase, etc. Quantize and move audio around if needed...but this is a business and I have to be efficient with my time. |
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Post by damoongo on Jan 1, 2024 18:32:05 GMT -6
Let's hear it!
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Post by drumsound on Jan 1, 2024 18:40:58 GMT -6
Ha whatever man...yall sounded great! Trying to get those slackers to finish up some stuff so we can send you more. It’s like pulling teeth. So I may also press ahead with some other songs that are solely mine. The pace has seemed to slow down. |
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etc. and every single one of them were like "what's the repeating echo thing?" So I don't do anything they don't ask for now. Now - I do a little of lining up and phase, etc. Quantize and move audio around if needed...but this is a business and I have to be efficient with my time. 
