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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 11, 2023 15:21:56 GMT -6
So I’m listening to the Eagles yesterday. Listening to Don Henley and I’m thinking “how in the world do they get the vocals to sound like it has top end, but there’s a complete lack of sibilance and harshness?” Or go listen to something like Blackbird
Is it the mics? (A lot of it) Is it tracking everything to tape?
Being in this genre (country) as a writer and now producing/mixing for years has led me to lean to more modern sounding mixing - just to sound like what’s out there. It just seems like modern recording is 20hz - 20khz. Full band with. Smiley.
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Post by chessparov on Dec 11, 2023 15:31:39 GMT -6
I love his vocal sound on the entire End Of The Innocence Album also.
The pairing with Hornsby's piano playing/chords were fantastic.
Souther and Campbell delivered as usual.
(Like "Heart Of The Matter")
Chris
P.S. Wayne Shorter's Sax playing on the Title cut was sublime too.
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Post by christophert on Dec 11, 2023 16:09:25 GMT -6
Dolby A
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Post by ericn on Dec 11, 2023 16:13:05 GMT -6
So I’m listening to the Eagles yesterday. Listening to Don Henley and I’m thinking “how in the world do they get the vocals to sound like it has top end, but there’s a complete lack of sibilance and harshness?” Or go listen to something like Blackbird Is it the mics? (A lot of it) Is it tracking everything to tape? Being in this genre (country) as a writer and now producing/mixing for years has led me to lean to more modern sounding mixing - just to sound like what’s out there. It just seems like modern recording is 20hz - 20khz. Full band with. Smiley. Mic choice and I believe most of the Eagles vocals used the stock MCI pre’s in the console, not sure of the Henley solo stuff. |
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Post by drumsound on Dec 11, 2023 18:16:44 GMT -6
On an aux, blended to taste. Tape don't hurt either. |
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Post by popmann on Dec 11, 2023 20:33:20 GMT -6
Are you sure you're not just hearing how much air Henley has in his vocal tone? Like in the vowels? Maybe you're trying to get that via EQ? I mean there's a lot of pretty sibilant Henley tracks...AND a LOT in the Eagles era that sound like they have a 12-14khz LPF on them-super wooly. Sometimes those are the SAME vocal...Witchy Woman, ehm...
So, it all matters...the mic...compressor/limiter time constants and circuit headroom...mixing and mastering ears...but...the singer has to have something to emphasize with whatever exciter/EQ/limiter might be used. Meaning that sort of extra air...non vocal fry rasp...but, also fry coming and going...
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 11, 2023 20:35:16 GMT -6
Are you sure you're not just hearing how much air Henley has in his vocal tone? Like in the vowels? Maybe you're trying to get that via EQ? I mean there's a lot of pretty sibilant Henley tracks...AND a LOT in the Eagles era that sound like they have a 12-14khz LPF on them-super wooly. Sometimes those are the SAME vocal...Witchy Woman, ehm... So, it all matters...the mic...compressor/limiter time constants and circuit headroom...mixing and mastering ears...but...the singer has to have something to emphasize with whatever exciter/EQ/limiter might be used. Meaning that sort of extra air...non vocal fry rasp...but, also fry coming and going... Yeah it’s that top end roll off on old tunes that makes me want to do a top end roll off…although it kinda sounds like it’s reaching down to like 8Khz |
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Post by copperx on Dec 11, 2023 21:40:36 GMT -6
Are you sure you're not just hearing how much air Henley has in his vocal tone? Like in the vowels? Maybe you're trying to get that via EQ? I mean there's a lot of pretty sibilant Henley tracks...AND a LOT in the Eagles era that sound like they have a 12-14khz LPF on them-super wooly. Sometimes those are the SAME vocal...Witchy Woman, ehm... So, it all matters...the mic...compressor/limiter time constants and circuit headroom...mixing and mastering ears...but...the singer has to have something to emphasize with whatever exciter/EQ/limiter might be used. Meaning that sort of extra air...non vocal fry rasp...but, also fry coming and going... Yeah it’s that top end roll off on old tunes that makes me want to do a top end roll off…although it kinda sounds like it’s reaching down to like 8Khz
Slightly tangential, but when I was around 20 years old, I read the advice, "If you want a song to sound vintage, you should use a low pass on the mix bus." I experimented with LPFs as high as 19.5 kHz with very sharp slopes and it always sounded wrong, like I was removing a ton of detail, especially spatial cues and excitement and "sparkle", which I think come from the extreme upper end of the spectrum. I can't hear that high anymore, only up to around 17 kHz, but that early experience makes me very reluctant to ever use a low pass filter on the mix bus. Young people will hear such things clear as day.
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Post by ericn on Dec 11, 2023 21:55:36 GMT -6
Are you sure you're not just hearing how much air Henley has in his vocal tone? Like in the vowels? Maybe you're trying to get that via EQ? I mean there's a lot of pretty sibilant Henley tracks...AND a LOT in the Eagles era that sound like they have a 12-14khz LPF on them-super wooly. Sometimes those are the SAME vocal...Witchy Woman, ehm... So, it all matters...the mic...compressor/limiter time constants and circuit headroom...mixing and mastering ears...but...the singer has to have something to emphasize with whatever exciter/EQ/limiter might be used. Meaning that sort of extra air...non vocal fry rasp...but, also fry coming and going... Yeah it’s that top end roll off on old tunes that makes me want to do a top end roll off…although it kinda sounds like it’s reaching down to like 8Khz Download a RTA app on your phone preferably 1/3 octave and you can get a pretty good idea of -3 dB corner and slope. Of course looking at credits on End of the Innocence having Shelly Yackus behind the board sure didn’t hurt. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 11, 2023 22:01:15 GMT -6
I was actually referring to The Eagles…was listening to Hotel California (the record not the song)…just from memory very different sounds from his solo stuff.
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Post by bossanova on Dec 11, 2023 22:26:13 GMT -6
Are you sure you're not just hearing how much air Henley has in his vocal tone? Like in the vowels? Maybe you're trying to get that via EQ? I mean there's a lot of pretty sibilant Henley tracks...AND a LOT in the Eagles era that sound like they have a 12-14khz LPF on them-super wooly. Sometimes those are the SAME vocal...Witchy Woman, ehm... So, it all matters...the mic...compressor/limiter time constants and circuit headroom...mixing and mastering ears...but...the singer has to have something to emphasize with whatever exciter/EQ/limiter might be used. Meaning that sort of extra air...non vocal fry rasp...but, also fry coming and going... Yeah it’s that top end roll off on old tunes that makes me want to do a top end roll off…although it kinda sounds like it’s reaching down to like 8Khz I know Paul Frindle has put forth the explanation that those 70s recordings have their distinctive sound in part from HF loss due to repeated playback. I’m guessing that might be especially pronounced on an Eagles album where they would track and overdub and punch over and over again until it was perfect. I’ve heard that some of those 70s vocal booths at the Record Plant, etc, were very dry but still retained the “air” because of the excellent broadband treatment. I think Hotel California was mostly 87s on leads? |
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Post by christopher on Dec 11, 2023 22:27:59 GMT -6
This used to drive me insane- every single analog recording ever, no matter how cheaply made, in garages or untreated homes, didn’t have the laser beam ear slicing thing and I had to find out why.
One thing I’ve seen a lot of old pics from 60s and 70s where the singer is 3-6 feet away. It got me thinking how I never considered it, duh, we don’t experience a singer with our ear 6 inches from their mouth. So why am I close micing? I think that’s a little of it. But then there’s other pics of legends using 87 with Foam on the mic and they are eating it.
My final conclusion after many experiments is tape just won’t allow the laser beam highs. My MCI Jh110 anyway, even at 30ips. You’d have to work really really hard to try and get there. Of course it can sound nasty and harsh if used improperly- the cassette sound everyone thinks of.. that’s not really the studio tape thing though
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 11, 2023 22:48:45 GMT -6
This used to drive me insane- every single analog recording ever, no matter how cheaply made, in garages or untreated homes, didn’t have the laser beam ear slicing thing and I had to find out why. One thing I’ve seen a lot of old pics from 60s and 70s where the singer is 3-6 feet away. It got me thinking how I never considered it, duh, we don’t experience a singer with our ear 6 inches from their mouth. So why am I close micing? I think that’s a little of it. But then there’s other pics of legends using 87 with Foam on the mic and they are eating it. My final conclusion after many experiments is tape just won’t allow the laser beam highs. My MCI Jh110 anyway, even at 30ips. You’d have to work really really hard to try and get there. Of course it can sound nasty and harsh if used improperly- the cassette sound everyone thinks of.. that’s not really the studio tape thing though See - I’m thinking it’s tape too |
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Post by Blackdawg on Dec 11, 2023 23:49:58 GMT -6
Could be tape. More likely its a bit of everything.
Singers technique, mic, mic placement, room, tape, pre amp, console, tape again.
Tape machines(properly calibrated ones anyways) are almost flat to 40kHz. You can have PLENTY of highs with tape.
but there is a reason why some producers still track to tape first then go to protools after.
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Post by drumsound on Dec 11, 2023 23:51:44 GMT -6
Tape does a really nice thing to the high-end. You know it's there, but it kind of floats as opposed to points if that makes sense.
Even if you push the highs to tape they still come back softer. I've heard tale of Val Garay (sp?) mixing on an API would consider "flat" starting EQ with all the EQs set at +4 at either 10 or 12.5k
John, if you want to send me a mix, I can run it through my Studer A80 at both 15 and 30ips.
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Post by keymod on Dec 12, 2023 5:25:43 GMT -6
Tape does a really nice thing to the high-end. You know it's there, but it kind of floats as opposed to points if that makes sense. Even if you push the highs to tape they still come back softer. I've heard tale of Val Garay (sp?) mixing on an API would consider "flat" starting EQ with all the EQs set at +4 at either 10 or 12.5k John, if you want to send me a mix, I can run it through my Studer A80 at both 15 and 30ips. Then there is the discussion regarding actually tracking to tape vs mixing to tape. I see/hear a benefit to both, with using both being even more sublime. |
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Post by thehightenor on Dec 12, 2023 5:31:45 GMT -6
My simple answer.
They used stunningly great U47's - through stunningly great pre's onto tape.
Part of the reason it was great gear was because it was the gear of the day and not yet old!
Today we have gear 60 years or below that standard facsimiles called clones.
30 years ago I tracked some vocals though an original 47 > Telefunken tube pre > 2 inch 16 track tape - and it had THAT sound.
And that was only 30 years.
My current chain
Wunder Cm7 (m7 cap) > Coil CA-70 > Retro STA Level > HEDD 192 (touch of the little green tape knob) get's me 90% there.
Just gotta let that last 10% go :-)
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Post by mcirish on Dec 12, 2023 7:18:13 GMT -6
I'm also thinking that the amount of compression they used was a lot less than what we use now. I would bet they ride the vocals on the way in and do a lot more hand automation on the vocals during mixing, I'm sure tape wear plays a part too.
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Post by svart on Dec 12, 2023 7:26:55 GMT -6
Distortion. The original signal is probably pretty band limited by tape and all the analog gear going into the tape. Harmonics added by all the analog gear add enough distortion to the midrange to fool the ear into hearing upper harmonics that aren't there.
Old productions focused on the midrange. That's where everything was for vinyl/(cassette)tape/8track.
Modern productions focus on trying to use as much bandwidth as possible.
I'm finding that if you focus on the mids almost exclusively, the rest will follow.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2023 8:26:16 GMT -6
Are you sure you're not just hearing how much air Henley has in his vocal tone? Like in the vowels? Maybe you're trying to get that via EQ? I mean there's a lot of pretty sibilant Henley tracks...AND a LOT in the Eagles era that sound like they have a 12-14khz LPF on them-super wooly. Sometimes those are the SAME vocal...Witchy Woman, ehm... So, it all matters...the mic...compressor/limiter time constants and circuit headroom...mixing and mastering ears...but...the singer has to have something to emphasize with whatever exciter/EQ/limiter might be used. Meaning that sort of extra air...non vocal fry rasp...but, also fry coming and going... it’s probably not a low pass filter, just murk from not great electronics and multiple tape bounces. Good mic into Early opamp pre with rising thd in the higher treble, think api or some lower fidelity garbage of today, eqs with more not great opamps and bad caps, compressors that weren’t great, old vcas without a lot of bandwidth, and a couple tape bounces: tracking, maybe editing vocals, the mix, and the master sent to the pressing plant your lp or early cd came from god knows. There was probably an ne5532 or ne5534 in the electronics in the late 70s if they were lucky |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2023 8:37:17 GMT -6
I'm also thinking that the amount of compression they used was a lot less than what we use now. I would bet they ride the vocals on the way in and do a lot more hand automation on the vocals during mixing, I'm sure tape wear plays a part too. dunno mid 70s. They’re starting to get accurate stuff so they can do 20-30 db off on a dbx used as an rms leveler and limit the overshoots with an 1176 no problem. The noise in that chain is mainly from the 1176 because the makeup gain on a vca compressor adjusts the dc to bring the vca back to unity where it’s trimmed for lowest noise and distortion and then that hits tape, taking more transients off. |
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Post by bossanova on Dec 12, 2023 8:42:25 GMT -6
Yeah it’s that top end roll off on old tunes that makes me want to do a top end roll off…although it kinda sounds like it’s reaching down to like 8Khz
Slightly tangential, but when I was around 20 years old, I read the advice, "If you want a song to sound vintage, you should use a low pass on the mix bus." I experimented with LPFs as high as 19.5 kHz with very sharp slopes and it always sounded wrong, like I was removing a ton of detail, especially spatial cues and excitement and "sparkle", which I think come from the extreme upper end of the spectrum. I can't hear that high anymore, only up to around 17 kHz, but that early experience makes me very reluctant to ever use a low pass filter on the mix bus. Young people will hear such things clear as day.
I've been down that road too. It's wild how a lot of those 70s recordings will start rolling off between 8 and 12k if you put them through an analyzer, and 70-71 can go as low as 5 or 6k, but any kind of filtering to try to achieve that sound cuts out all that psychoacoustic magic that's not showing up on the analyzer. Added: I have found that Dr Bill's old method of finding ways to avoid boosting treble ITB on vocals can definitely avoid some of that harshness. I'm also wondering if something like treble shelf starting very high and rolling down so it's not cutting anything but just gradually softening everything above a certain range would have any effect. |
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Post by drbill on Dec 12, 2023 8:51:03 GMT -6
A lot of good thoughts here pointing in the right direction. I'll try to check back in later and lend some of my perspective.
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 12, 2023 9:59:44 GMT -6
A lot of good thoughts here pointing in the right direction. I'll try to check back in later and lend some of my perspective. Yeah, do tell the tricks... I probably just need to be less timid about notching out frequencies... |
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Post by jaba on Dec 12, 2023 10:32:49 GMT -6
Here's their engineer Bill Szymczyk saying they usually used a U87 on vocals (as he does here: tapeop.com/interviews/103/bill-szymczyk/) but I seem to recall reading somewhere years ago that sometimes he'd put up a 421 for rockier songs. From my experience with 2" tape, it can help shave off some transients but can still get harsh up top if you want it to. My guess with the Eagles stuff is that it's cumulative - people who knew how to play, sing and get sounds, great engineers, great rooms/ gear/ arrangements, tape, etc. |
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