More not-necessarily rhetorical question…

Heyyyy…not to hijack, but can you give any more session details? 😀 I am a mega fan of Ben Folds and just racked up my 7th show in 20 years a couple of months ago.  

To Johnkenn ‘s original question, I tend to prefer some sort of mellowing/mild saturation across the mixbus (you probably already do this). I like to have something inherently mellowing, and then boosting into it. In my case, I use a Zulu, and before it are a pair of EQP5 softly boosting some highs.

This topic is also part of why I love 67s. I sort of feel like a U67 into digital sounds like a U87 to tape. Roughly speaking.

You engineered 8in8! That's so cool. Did you record Neil Gaiman with the same chain? Any stories/gear info (I'm guessing same console) from "The Problem With Saints"? It sounds like Ben and Neil just doing it live in one go. The piano and vocal both sound great there.

One other thing to consider is..

What version/edition of the songs are you listening to? Eagles and Henley have been remixed to death over the years. Lots of "best of" re-releases are remixed "From the original tapes" but will be done digitally through a million plugs anyway. Who knows what earlier editions of re-releases have gone through in the remix stage before people cared about knowing or telling about such things.

It's certainly possible that you've gotten a modern take that's been run through the plug-in ringer and you don't even know it and it's causing you to yearn for something that didn't actually happen. 

Tracking to tape is really great, and I miss it for a few reasons... I don't always mix through my Studer, but I really should just do it as a default.  It's just ease to live in the computer with console summing and analog processing on the mix bus.  



I was gonna ask this

Thanks for sharing!

Whenever I think of the Eagles vocal sound I immediately think of a U87 through an 1176 to tape.

I will now be offering a new service called “smoked” mics. Send me your mic and I’ll take it to a cigar lounge. Price is $500. It also includes me singing into it after a few glasses of blantons.

He's come a long way, baby!

I bet ml's fee is more for the hipster American Spirits... 

OK.  A few comments :

That "sound" is not one or two items, it's a culmination of a lot of things all mixed together into a classic concoction. Things are are almost impossible to put together in current record production techniques. Not IMPOSSIBLE - just mostly impossible.

- Musicians / Singers / Songs / Arrangements / Production & Engineering Techniques / Gear. All of these are radically different, and come from a radically different perspective than music that was made 40-50 years ago.  How can we sound like those records when we use todays gear and recording techniques?

- Having a great arrangement can open up things for the vocal to really shine. In the "old days" things were not so cluttered and there were not doubles of everything, and most of the sounds were "mono" not stereo.  A study of great arrangers is eye opening - Billy May, Henry Mancini, George Martin (!!), Quincy (!!), David Campbell, HB Barnum, Lee Holdridge, etc..  Yeah, an "arranger" used to be a THING.

- Dolby A. Yes that's a great trick, BUT, it doesn't work well with most of the current crop of condenser mics. Which leads me to :

- Dynamic and Ribbon mics. You want that smooth sound? Ditch the megabuck condensers. You don't necessarily want a U47. ESPECIALLY if you're looking for that vintage smooth sound. Contrary to some belief, from at least 1980-ish forward, a U47 was not "the" vocal mic until the last 15 years. Which coincidentally along with Digital and a wazoo load of crappy clones lends itself for some harsh - albeit extremely detailed - vocals. Go dynamic. Go ribbon.

- Lo Pass Filtering - NEVER EVER (IMO) put one on the mix buss. Put them on individual tracks. Start with them fully passing everything, then bring them down slowly until you hear the HF rolling off. Then open them back up a tad. Do this to everything if you like. Then A/B with all bypassed.    The HF energy of the entire track will calm WAY down. Even very digital tracks. Putting on on the mix buss can (and probably will) lead to a horribly lifeless mix. I have many stories about famous mixers giving advice on doing exactly this, and IMO - ruining records. But I'll hold back at this point......

- You don't need a U47. A good 87 is what so many of those classic records were cut on. Much more than a 47.

- Tape. Yes, it helps going for that vintage sound. First, there is inevitable roll off of HF transients just due to oxide shedding. Then, with certain tape formulations and bias adjustments, you could take that HF rolloff, add in the tape compression, and the HF grainy saturation to make what is today considered classic. But tape is only a PART of the recipe.

- Mic placement and overall engineering expertise. We have lost the legends. We have (mostly) lost the techniques that so many developed with they had VERY limited tools. Now, we just look for a different compressor or mic pre or plugin. DISTANCE (super important), placement (on/off axis) and room tone are your friends if you are trying to recreate those tones. Today we essentially have no thought and care into mic placement - with mega emphasis about buying a $5k mic and singing 3 inches from it. Go back and see my thoughts on dynamics and ribbons. Or even a combo of both. A nice ribbon phase aligned and blended in with a U87 will very often beat out a great U47 for me. I feel blessed to have learned at the hands of several of the LA "Wrecking Crew" and Stax's main engineer Ronnie Capone. I can't touch what those guys can/could do (and sadly, most are gone now.).

- Singers technique. Um...@johnkenn and some others here aside, the vocal talent of singers in the 70's and 80's both in terms of quality, technique and overall skill is magnitudes greater than what we would consider great today. This is the one HUGE area of music production that seems to be atrophying with all the "do it yourself at home" studios. A thousand tracks and autotune can even make ME sound like a singer.

- Back to tape. It's got to be a GREAT tape machine. Not a 7.5IPS Revox, or a 16 track Fostex, or a Tascam 1/2" machine. Those ARE tape, but they will not give you what an Ampex MM1000 or a JH24 or a Studer will. Even at 30 IPS, those machines SMOKE the cheap machines that some try to pawn off as tape.  At 15 IPS, hold on to your chair....

- ROOM!! ROOM!!! ROOM!!!!!!!!!!! Especially with greater distance from the mic. How many are singing in purpose built rooms these days. Not some "treatment on the walls" room, but a purpose build - up from the ground - or close to it room? Not many. And that's another reason.  Virtually all the great vocals of old were cut in real purpose built studios.

- To get this vintage sound, tracking to tape is greater than mixing to tape. Mixing to tape can be cool, but it's far less impactful than tracking to a good 16 track 2" machine on 456.

- Yes to the less heavily compressed tracks. Before SSL came to the forefront (which is mostly the sound I think we are discussing), there was virtually NO buss compression and minimal compression on individual tracks?  Why? Cause the studio's often only had a couple DBX compressors, maybe 3-4 1176's, and an LA2a or so. Maybe a bit more, but not much more. Today doesn't everyone have a compressor on every one of the 60 tracks they are mixing?  Fingers and faders and cutting tape got it in the pocket.

- Distortion / Saturation. I'm sure so many would be absolutely gobsmack shocked to see how much distortion is on some of those old multitrack tapes - but you don't really hear it in "the mix".

- "Added: I have found that Dr Bill's old method of finding ways to avoid boosting treble ITB on vocals can definitely avoid some of that harshness. I'm also wondering if something like treble shelf starting very high and rolling down so it's not cutting anything but just gradually softening everything above a certain range would have any effect."

Yes. Big time. Shelving EQ's up to and around 60K get a very gentle and "airy" slope down around 18-20k. Thinking of a certain piece of my beloved analog gear's "Air Band". Magical. But the knee is WAAAAAAAAYYYYYY above the nyquist frequency.

Add all these up and mix to taste. They will get you there. Or at least very close with the right song.  The hardest part about getting that sound is the talent, and backing away from modern production techniques - not the gear.



PS - As I hinted at earlier, all my early experiences and mentorship and now my above opinions / experience came from LA Wrecking Crew members like Don Randi, Hal Blain, Tommy Tedesco, etc.. Post Wrecking Crew era though - I'm not THAT old. Hahaha!!! I can share more about that if anyone is interested. Ran across some great interviews lately with Don (who gave me one of my first big arranging breaks - ABC TV Playboy's 25th anniversary special with Hugh Hefner singing "Thank Heaven For Little Girls". Geez, how politically incorrect can you get??? . That's the essence of my experience in those classic sounds - the sound of musicians playing together in the same room in LA during it's heyday. (Ever seen a pic of a Phil Spector session at Gold Star?  Also a more than a bit before my time).

Also, deep in my soul, the bluesy soulful Ronnie Capone who heralded from Stax as their main engineer who helped put them on the map after he played drums for Elvis. He did Booker T and the MG's (Green Onions), Tower of Power, Sam & Dave (Soul Man), Rufus, Staple Singers, Jeff Beck, Otis Redding (Dock o the Bay), Jerry Lee Lewis, Albert King, Isaac Hayes (theme from Shaft - shut yo mouth!!! haha), Ike and Tina Turner, and on and on and on. He engineered literally HUNDREDS of those classic (mostly Memphis) soul R&B records. The REAL R&B records. Such a kind, gentle and humble man, and just watching him work taught me so much and he's the one that essentially inspired the Silver Bullet in the back recesses of my mind.  Watching him work his magic so effortlessly got me into engineering.  Man, I miss Ron... RIP Ronnie.

Anyway, take it or leave it, that's where all the above perspectives stem from. Nashville or NYC or London will have a different perspective, but there ARE some constants I think.

bp

All this time, it was right there in front of us. The mighty AT4047!

Previously on many occasions I’ve put a Sonnox EQ on my vocal engaged the LPF …. yep the high cut and roll off the top.

I got the idea from reading about how they recorded Sinatra.

These days I’m using the Coil CA70 and the Retro STA Level and using the NF control on the Coil I’m able to get a similar filling off effect and a super smooth vocal.