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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2023 21:00:56 GMT -6
Main metering is on the output stage - last thing in the line - just like the hardware. So it is not linked directly to headroom. It was not our design concern to make it how other plugs do it - we designed this to be AS CLOSE to the hardware as was technically possible. That was our goal. Sorry it doesn't meet your expectations, but it is what it is - which is what we believe to be the most useful for the most folks. Think hardware output metering. Also, the saturation LED's come on gradually from blue to pinkish-red, as the hardware - or in this case software - starts to saturate. They are not intended to be "peak" style meters, but more gradual RMS-ish style metering. They are pretty close to the hardware in the way they work. The LED's for the C module are colored the same as the Color modules they represent to stay consistent to the hardware as well. I spent way too much of my life trying to get those damn Mojo LEDs to match the behavior of the hardware.  I avert my eyes every time I look at my hardware because the memories are too painful.  It’s sad to admit, but that might have been one of the most frustrating challenges of the whole project. Nothing like trying to digitally emulate the behavior of a very non-linear LED driver circuit that was breadboarded into existence through trial and error to match some strange idea I had in my head. As for Headroom, it’s adjusting internal operating levels and saturation thresholds in a compensated way. So I would hope the output meter levels wouldn’t change. If you want to see more output signal on the meter the easiest way is to turn up the Output Trim. The meter gets signal after that final Output Trim circuit, which by the way is modeled after an analog output stage I created specifically for the plugin. Brad I wish the output trim and headroom settings allowed you to type in specific values to correspond to your converters' levels or other plugins. And crosstalk on stereo busses in DAWs sounds awesome to fill in the image. I abuse it all the time in SDRR2 and TCS-68. |
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Post by drbill on Aug 27, 2023 21:23:40 GMT -6
Hi, Yes, it’s intentional. Which sections do you have enabled by the way? For the least amount of left/right variation I would set Dyna Realism to SYM mode. Brad Ironically, I don’t have the plug-in. I have the HW. Yes, it's normal. I don't believe it was ever an "intentional" thing on the hardware that we designed into it, but like tons of analog gear, it's just there, and it's definitely a part of the sound -- so on the software, it's intentional and modeled into it to match the hardware. Honestly, the hardware is useable in dual mono modes under certain circumstances, but it was never designed to be used that way. That's one of the main reasons we made Chroma's. For the software, that's what multiple instantiations are for. Hope that all makes sense. |
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Post by BradM on Aug 27, 2023 23:35:30 GMT -6
Hi, Yes, it’s intentional. Which sections do you have enabled by the way? For the least amount of left/right variation I would set Dyna Realism to SYM mode. Brad Ironically, I don’t have the plug-in. I have the HW. I'm so sorry! I totally misread your message. My brain is so fried from too many late nights this week. With my hardware designs I always try to design for the lowest crosstalk possible, but you always have some as a function of circuit layout (parasitic effects) and the levels that signals are at. It's somewhat inevitable, and coindentally part of the charm of analog circuits...the width/depth/glue thing we all like. I'm curious what settings you had that made you notice it. Cheers, Brad |
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Post by BradM on Aug 27, 2023 23:44:57 GMT -6
I love the plugin but for totally different reasons than it was made.
The plugin succeeds like that on N mode on mix bus with the vintage and tight buttons hit. It just isn't as flexible as SDRR2 Desk in that mix bus regard. N as an early insert on individual tracks gives that subtle warmth and depth. It wrecks the Waves and PSP Neves that almost sound like digital overdrive. It isn't as sheened as Black Rooster Vpre-73 programmed originally by Ray from Fuse. It feels more modern and less brown and muddy than Softube British Class A or Brainworx bx_Focusrite (this one is really weird and fat).
A mode has a cool use as a clipper. You can get it to a gain range where a sort of non-linear transfer curve fun happens and use it as less beefy and gritty version of PSP Vintage Warmer or Apogee Soft Limit. Maximize the volume and clip off spurious transients as an early insert on tracks. It is better to use it for for mastering or as an early track insert maybe before or even after leveling compression or automation. You could even use it as a sidechain to a fast compressor to not pump the mix on transients while providing a slight amount of distortion less pushed on the audio path of the track. The sweet spot for this is just a little too small to wildly ride faders into for anything other than some slight distortion.
Hitmaker 4000 is easier to mix into. More forgiving than A for volume gain and more distorted!
Hi Dan, Thanks for checking out the new plugin! The way you describe what you are hearing seems to align well with the results the hardware delivers. So it sounds like you are getting the same experience I have with the SB mk2 sitting on my desk. That makes me happy to hear.  I've been enjoying A > C for modern, harmonically present mixes. Aspect Ratio engaged. Cheers, Brad |
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Post by guitarheadhunt on Aug 28, 2023 0:50:17 GMT -6
Out of budget for me at the moment. So what do I do? I download the demo anyway. Now I can't unhear all the great things it does to my tracks and vocals. get yourself a Forever29 voucher on kvr. that's what i did. ran me $45 How do you get one of those. I looked on Kvr and did a search for Forever29 and nothing as far as a redeemable code came up. I guess I’m not certain where to look. |
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Post by thehightenor on Aug 28, 2023 3:23:17 GMT -6
How can you make a plug in version of a unit designed to overcome the inadequacies of plugins (which the hardware does very well - being analogue hardware!) There's a paradox in there that reminds me of "Back to the future" .... <Silver Bullet fading away on Polaroid photo> |
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Post by kcatthedog on Aug 28, 2023 4:35:23 GMT -6
Not certain that was the genesis ? Dr bill will hopefully chime in but i recall him at one point, thinking what his wish list of functions was on his master bus and that that resulted in the sb.
I don’t recall him talking about plug ins at all.
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Post by kcatthedog on Aug 28, 2023 4:50:25 GMT -6
Forever29 is a now cancelled Plugin Alliance voucher system, it would honour vouchers that were previously awarded.
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Post by thehightenor on Aug 28, 2023 5:32:26 GMT -6
Not certain that was the genesis ? Dr bill will hopefully chime in but i recall him at one point, thinking what his wish list of functions was on his master bus and that that resulted in the sb. I don’t recall him talking about plug ins at all. Ah I see. Still, the point about SB analogue hardware on your stereo mix bus is .... You have "analogue hardware on your stereo mix bus!" One of the many major selling points of the SB (I read it on their website) is the SB provides "analogue summing" and all the benefits that analogue summing gives without having to use multi-channel analogue summing and as stated and demonstrated and in agreement with my own findings they both sound identical! Thus my own decision to use stereo summing on my stereo mix bus, instead of multi-channel analogue summing. A plugin version simply isn't going to give you that as it's not analogue - thus the paradox. I'm sure the plugin is very good, plugins can be very good, but they sure as heck never ever sound like analogue hardware. I imagine anyone buying this plugin is going to eventually want to buy a hardware Silver Bullet .... and in that sense I guess the plugin is great advertising for the SB :-) |
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Post by kcatthedog on Aug 28, 2023 5:40:40 GMT -6
So, I favour ob over plugs too but then we have the price differences.
The sb plug in costs about 15-20% of the actual box.
So, for me the plug in represents very good value (features, sonics and multiple instances), while the actual SB is not affordable.
A head to head shoot out, box vs plug in identical settings would be interesting.
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Post by Quint on Aug 28, 2023 5:44:59 GMT -6
How can you make a plug in version of a unit designed to overcome the inadequacies of plugins (which the hardware does very well - being analogue hardware!) There's a paradox in there that reminds me of "Back to the future" .... <Silver Bullet fading away on Polaroid photo> I've had the same exact question, but have been biting my tongue. |
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Post by thehightenor on Aug 28, 2023 6:23:32 GMT -6
How can you make a plug in version of a unit designed to overcome the inadequacies of plugins (which the hardware does very well - being analogue hardware!) There's a paradox in there that reminds me of "Back to the future" .... <Silver Bullet fading away on Polaroid photo> I've had the same exact question, but have been biting my tongue. To be clear I think the SB hardware sounds FANTASTIC! (as great analogue design does) .... the pre-amps are worth the price of entry alone! |
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Post by phdamage on Aug 28, 2023 6:53:31 GMT -6
get yourself a Forever29 voucher on kvr. that's what i did. ran me $45 How do you get one of those. I looked on Kvr and did a search for Forever29 and nothing as far as a redeemable code came up. I guess I’m not certain where to look. Think I just searched “forever” and it came up. I just had a look and not seeing any but there are PA vouchers all the time there. A little patience will pay off |
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Post by kcatthedog on Aug 28, 2023 7:33:25 GMT -6
But the 29 voucher is no longer offered and the subscription vouchers do not provide a perpetual license.
Agree that patience pays off with PA sales though.
Current, SB plug discount is good though !
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Post by Quint on Aug 28, 2023 7:35:43 GMT -6
I've had the same exact question, but have been biting my tongue. To be clear I think the SB hardware sounds FANTASTIC! (as great analogue design does) .... the pre-amps are worth the price of entry alone! As a fan of Brad's designs, I'm just gonna leave this one alone. People seem to be liking their SB plugins, and that's great. |
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Post by phantom on Aug 28, 2023 7:42:13 GMT -6
To be clear I think the SB hardware sounds FANTASTIC! (as great analogue design does) .... the pre-amps are worth the price of entry alone! As a fan of Brad's designs, I'm just gonna leave this one alone. People seem to be liking their SB plugins, and that's great. The plugin is Brad's design as well. |
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Post by Quint on Aug 28, 2023 7:45:58 GMT -6
As a fan of Brad's designs, I'm just gonna leave this one alone. People seem to be liking their SB plugins, and that's great. The plugin is Brad's design as well. I know. It's the marketing, not the design. |
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Post by notneeson on Aug 28, 2023 7:52:26 GMT -6
To be clear I think the SB hardware sounds FANTASTIC! (as great analogue design does) .... the pre-amps are worth the price of entry alone! As a fan of Brad's designs, I'm just gonna leave this one alone. People seem to be liking their SB plugins, and that's great. I don’t view the SB as having anything to do with summing. It’s a signal processor that can do line or mic level signal processing. It is designed for extreme flexibility and tone shaping. Same could be said for the 1073, and companies have modeled the living $hit out of those. The SB focuses a lot on saturation and clipping which, for me, are not DSPs best tricks. Yes, the consensus is that the hardware is better, how much better or how meaningful the difference is upon delivery of a finished project, well that’s where opinions vary wildly. Look at it this way: Dr. Bill and Brad are at minimum, plug-in skeptical: they make hardware because they think it’s indispensable. So the fact that they have made two plugins now suggests either a high bar of quality and rigor was brought to these digital products or they’re full of crap. I’ve met Brad and followed Bill’s posts for years, and I know which one I think it is. It’s not, ew… LTL made a plugin. It’s, wow… for LTL to make a plugin it just be one of special ones. |
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Post by Quint on Aug 28, 2023 8:11:22 GMT -6
As a fan of Brad's designs, I'm just gonna leave this one alone. People seem to be liking their SB plugins, and that's great. I don’t view the SB as having anything to do with summing. It’s a signal processor that can do line or mic level signal processing. It is designed for extreme flexibility and tone shaping. Same could be said for the 1073, and companies have modeled the living $hit out of those. The SB focuses a lot on saturation and clipping which, for me, are not DSPs best tricks. Yes, the consensus is that the hardware is better, how much better or how meaningful the difference is upon delivery of a finished project, well that’s where opinions vary wildly. Look at it this way: Dr. Bill and Brad are at minimum, plug-in skeptical: they make hardware because they think it’s indispensable. So the fact that they have made two plugins now suggests either a high bar of quality and rigor was brought to these digital products or they’re full of crap. I’ve met Brad and followed Bill’s posts for years, and I know which one I think it is. It’s not, ew… LTL made a plugin. It’s, wow… for LTL to make a plugin it just be one of special ones. I'm a huge fan of Brad McGowan. That's why I decided to just try and leave this one alone. I don't necessarily disagree with anything you're saying, and I may very well try this plugin myself. I just get a little "uh, what now?" when companies (not just singling out LTL here), which were built on the backs of the notion that hardware sounds better than plugins, all of a sudden start releasing plugins. I think it's okay to have a little healthy skepticism in these situations. |
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Post by ragan on Aug 28, 2023 8:24:57 GMT -6
There's also the fact that plug-ins have the potential to be way, way more profitable. Many, many hardware companies have been lured into DSP land. LTL is a business (and also, I'm sure, a passion for the owner). Plug-ins can be really, really good business. I'm pretty sure it's a mix of all this stuff (this could make a lot of money, we think we can get the DSP to the point where we're happy putting our name on it, this allows people who can't afford the hardware to get a taste of our flagship thing, it may entice some people into getting the hardware version, etc, etc) that leads a company like LTL to get further into the plug-in game.
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Post by Quint on Aug 28, 2023 8:34:36 GMT -6
There's also the fact that plug-ins have the potential to be way, way more profitable. Many, many hardware companies have been lured into DSP land. LTL is a business (and also, I'm sure, a passion for the owner). Plug-ins can be really, really good business. I'm pretty sure it's a mix of all this stuff (this could make a lot of money, we think we can get the DSP to the point where we're happy putting our name on it, this allows people who can't afford the hardware to get a taste of our flagship thing, it may entice some people into getting the hardware version, etc, etc) that leads a company like LTL to get further into the plug-in game. Agreed. I think all of that likely went into the decision to release the SB plugin. Universal Audio applies this rationale every day, and I own a ton of their plugins. But if the SB plugin is truly a 1:1 "faithful recreation", I'll be waiting for people to start dumping their hardware units on Reverb for heavily discounted prices.  |
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Post by notneeson on Aug 28, 2023 8:36:55 GMT -6
I don’t view the SB as having anything to do with summing. It’s a signal processor that can do line or mic level signal processing. It is designed for extreme flexibility and tone shaping. Same could be said for the 1073, and companies have modeled the living $hit out of those. The SB focuses a lot on saturation and clipping which, for me, are not DSPs best tricks. Yes, the consensus is that the hardware is better, how much better or how meaningful the difference is upon delivery of a finished project, well that’s where opinions vary wildly. Look at it this way: Dr. Bill and Brad are at minimum, plug-in skeptical: they make hardware because they think it’s indispensable. So the fact that they have made two plugins now suggests either a high bar of quality and rigor was brought to these digital products or they’re full of crap. I’ve met Brad and followed Bill’s posts for years, and I know which one I think it is. It’s not, ew… LTL made a plugin. It’s, wow… for LTL to make a plugin it just be one of special ones. I'm a huge fan of Brad McGowan. That's why I decided to just try and leave this one alone. I don't necessarily disagree with anything you're saying, and I may very well try this plugin myself. I just get a little "uh, what now?" when companies (not just singling out LTL here), which were built on the backs of the notion that hardware sounds better than plugins, all of a sudden start releasing plugins. I think it's okay to have a little healthy skepticism in these situations. Yeah man, I hear you. Skepticism is good, you’re right. We should instantiate any signal processor with some healthy skepticism: as in, is this actually helping my production. Hell, I took a Fairchild off the master insert of a 1608 one time and my mix got better, not worse. I was so hyped on that box I had just assumed it would be a betterizer. More like flaberizer. Plugins are a reality. Full stop. We should want the really critical and particular companies making them. If you clutch your pearls at the idea of plugins in general, that’s cool, you’re a niche operator and not working in step with today’s professionals. And I salute you, we need outliers. |
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Post by Quint on Aug 28, 2023 9:22:10 GMT -6
I'm a huge fan of Brad McGowan. That's why I decided to just try and leave this one alone. I don't necessarily disagree with anything you're saying, and I may very well try this plugin myself. I just get a little "uh, what now?" when companies (not just singling out LTL here), which were built on the backs of the notion that hardware sounds better than plugins, all of a sudden start releasing plugins. I think it's okay to have a little healthy skepticism in these situations. Yeah man, I hear you. Skepticism is good, you’re right. We should instantiate any signal processor with some healthy skepticism: as in, is this actually helping my production. Hell, I took a Fairchild off the master insert of a 1608 one time and my mix got better, not worse. I was so hyped on that box I had just assumed it would be a betterizer. More like flaberizer. Plugins are a reality. Full stop. We should want the really critical and particular companies making them. If you clutch your pearls at the idea of plugins in general, that’s cool, you’re a niche operator and not working in step with today’s professionals. And I salute you, we need outliers. Oh, I totally use plugins myself. I have multiple racks of hardware, but plugins are still definitely in use. You know what I'd consider buying? A multi channel Silver Bullet. Either a 2u tall box with, let's say, four stereo SB circuits (8 channels total), and sans the large meter, but maybe a small LED meter for each individual channel. Or, better yet, double wide 500 series stereo units that could be purchased two channels (one stereo bus) at a time. I'd totally consider slowly filling out a 500 rack with some of these. I might even sell some of my 500 series preamps to swap out with something like this. |
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Post by phantom on Aug 28, 2023 9:23:56 GMT -6
I don't see the problem here.
I mean, Manley is still selling hardware while also selling tons of plugins. Neve, API, SSL, the same thing, just to name a few.
The reason, apart from all the comercial ones, is that they believe in both formats. As they should. Of course there's a marketing blurb everytime a hardware maker says something like "cure of digititis", but I think they really mean the pure digital stuff, without any harmonic content, non linear characteristics, etc.
To conclude, I also don't think we're at a point where the hardware magic can be fully captured, but we're close. I applaud the good people that are pushing the bar. And it's great to see Brad joining this club.
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Post by drsax on Aug 28, 2023 9:38:42 GMT -6
How can you make a plug in version of a unit designed to overcome the inadequacies of plugins (which the hardware does very well - being analogue hardware!) There's a paradox in there that reminds me of "Back to the future" .... <Silver Bullet fading away on Polaroid photo> I've had the same exact question, but have been biting my tongue. there are so many reasons that a plug-in version is a great idea. Having both, I can say, they are both excellent. And being an analog gear collector, I can also say that there is nothing that tops the experience of analog gear for me. With that said, I find instances where it is incredibly useful to have the plug-in. When I am working with virtual instruments in my DAW, hardware on the master bus adds overall latency time. With the plug-in, I can remove my hardware and work with the plug-in while I am programming and using virtual instruments, once I’ve passed that stage of production, I can put the hardware back on the master bus. There is nothing like working with your settings on the master bus throughout the entire process, as they influence your choices. Or being able to use multiple instances on different sources. Keeping my hardware on the master bus and using the plug-in on other buses within my mix. As far as I know, the analog unit was not made to overcome the deficiency of plug-ins, but rather to recreate the concept of audio going through multiple analog stages like an analog mixer. The plug-in is an emulation of that. I was skeptical at what would be achieved with the plug-in version initially. But after beta testing and working with it, I was extremely pleased and surprised at how far the plug-in exceeded my expectations. This thing is a serious tool, not a gimmick. LTL spent a lot of time to create this plugin |
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I avert my eyes every time I look at my hardware because the memories are too painful. 
It’s sad to admit, but that might have been one of the most frustrating challenges of the whole project. Nothing like trying to digitally emulate the behavior of a very non-linear LED driver circuit that was breadboarded into existence through trial and error to match some strange idea I had in my head.
