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Post by drbill on Aug 28, 2023 10:01:53 GMT -6
I think it's okay to have a little healthy skepticism in these situations. A few things for some clarity. - First "summing". That word gets misused and abused so much these days. Summing is quite simply the adding together of two or more signals. It can be done OTB, and it can be done ITB. We do it every day with our DAW's. And we do it every day with Mixers - be they digital or analog. Going OTB and putting something - including a Silver Bullet - on your mix bus is NOT summing - although that term is being used constantly for 2 buss processing. - When we originally started developing the Silver Bullet we considered including some form of OTB summing. We passed on it after extensive testing. It's not a summing box, although many engineers use it AFTER their summing boxes. It's a 2 channel processor. (and more) We kind of like to call it a "2 channel console" because that's the sonics we were shooting for. I think both Brad and I have been quite vocal about how the SB compares to traditional summers and why. I won't drag this out any longer by going over it again, but happy to if somebody needs clarity. - When we started development of the hardware Silver Bullet about 10 years ago, I was rocking a 120 input automated LFAC. Ultimately, I felt comfortable enough to put it into retirement when I built the new studio. In no small part to the hardware Silver Bullet and it's workflow. Although I will always have a fondness for big iron, I do not miss it. I love the hybrid approach, and it suits my sonics and workflow much better for what I'm doing these days. If I was tracking ensembles every day, that would be a different story. - There is some irony here in releasing a plugin. Probably more so on my part than Brad's. We expected the push back. At least I did. And that's 100% OK. For the doubters or naysayers, I would only suggest they try the plugin if they are interested in what a hardware or software Silver Bullet does. It will seal the deal - one way or the other. - I don't think my hardware Silver Bullets are going anywhere. I have 8. The plugin is going to get used all the time as well. Both Brad and I are very happy with the plugin. A plugin can never be hardware. Even if it was 100% sonically identical. - As for speculation on how profitable it is....  We will see I guess. Ultimately that's Brad's domain. This particular one was not a "slap a fancy GUI on it and call it good". It's taken a tremendous amount of money, research and development over the last couple of years. Personally, I am somewhat skeptical as to profitability. Especially as it seems to be a pretty fun pastime on how to game the PA system to get em for dirt cheap. LOL I've seen lots of $29 purchases and quite a few $1 purchases. - It was and is very apparent that the industry has transitioned, and for many it's now headed 100% digital - full steam ahead. Many people will never own hardware due to cost and/or preference, and they want only plugins - although that's not the general consensus around these parts. LTL's goal is to make as many people happy and as creative as possible. I think the plugin is a great step towards that. I don't think anyone is saying they are identical. If there are people saying that, it's certainly not Brad or I. - So....All that said. I think I covered what I wanted to say, but please, don't dance around it. Feel free to ask either Brad or I pointed questions. And I will try to answer them to the best of my ability. But really, I'd suggest demoing. The PA process is super easy, and you'll get the answer you are looking for in your personal studio on your personal monitors. That's the telling tale for any product. Luckily, plugins are easier to demo than mics. Cheers, bp |
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Post by drbill on Aug 28, 2023 10:12:32 GMT -6
I was skeptical at what would be achieved with the plug-in version initially. But after beta testing and working with it, I was extremely pleased and surprised at how far the plug-in exceeded my expectations. This thing is a serious tool, not a gimmick. LTL spent a lot of time to create this plugin Thank you Darren. Your ears and experience were very helpful in the development stages of this. You make a lot of great points. I think I can quote brad as saying "my company doesn't make toys". LOL Different tools for different jobs for different situations. |
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Post by thehightenor on Aug 28, 2023 10:29:34 GMT -6
.... LTL's goal is to make as many people happy and as creative as possible .... Cheers, bp Who can argue against that! |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2023 10:41:33 GMT -6
I love the plugin but for totally different reasons than it was made.
The plugin succeeds like that on N mode on mix bus with the vintage and tight buttons hit. It just isn't as flexible as SDRR2 Desk in that mix bus regard. N as an early insert on individual tracks gives that subtle warmth and depth. It wrecks the Waves and PSP Neves that almost sound like digital overdrive. It isn't as sheened as Black Rooster Vpre-73 programmed originally by Ray from Fuse. It feels more modern and less brown and muddy than Softube British Class A or Brainworx bx_Focusrite (this one is really weird and fat).
A mode has a cool use as a clipper. You can get it to a gain range where a sort of non-linear transfer curve fun happens and use it as less beefy and gritty version of PSP Vintage Warmer or Apogee Soft Limit. Maximize the volume and clip off spurious transients as an early insert on tracks. It is better to use it for for mastering or as an early track insert maybe before or even after leveling compression or automation. You could even use it as a sidechain to a fast compressor to not pump the mix on transients while providing a slight amount of distortion less pushed on the audio path of the track. The sweet spot for this is just a little too small to wildly ride faders into for anything other than some slight distortion.
Hitmaker 4000 is easier to mix into. More forgiving than A for volume gain and more distorted!
Hi Dan, Thanks for checking out the new plugin! The way you describe what you are hearing seems to align well with the results the hardware delivers. So it sounds like you are getting the same experience I have with the SB mk2 sitting on my desk. That makes me happy to hear. I've been enjoying A > C for modern, harmonically present mixes. Aspect Ratio engaged. Cheers, Brad Yeah you did a great job with A. The plug is better sounding than modern api hardware including the current 2500 okay really the ones right before the 2500+ but I doubt the plus is that much better. The silver bullet plug is more flexible and less colored. Modern API just doesn’t sound money and fat. It sounds plastic and bandpassed to the point I preferred apogee pres on lower gain for some things a few years ago. Often modern api just makes things sound fake much of the time and not like a ramones record. N has that cleaned up Neve thing but it’s not plastic like RND or the last few Metallica records that were all done through BAE. C 4000 is way better than SSL’s own mediocre plugs. This would be great to use pushed a bit with the Glue at 16x oversampling on two bus into Satin set right on modern tape for a very smooth itb sound that barely needs anything in mastering because they don’t change much timbre wise and have have horrible misbehavior like the SSL native and waves plugs. Of course this will bring crappy computers to their knees and some idiot mastering engineer will shove a dumb limiter or clipper on it later that kills the clean but rich two bus tone. |
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Post by drbill on Aug 28, 2023 10:48:35 GMT -6
Yeah you did a great job with A. The plug is better sounding than modern api hardware including the current 2500 okay really the ones right before the 2500+ but I doubt the plus is that much better. The silver bullet plug is more flexible and less colored. Modern API just doesn’t sound money and fat. It sounds plastic and bandpassed to the point I preferred apogee pres on lower gain for some things a few years ago. Often modern api just makes things sound fake much of the time and not like a ramones record. N has that cleaned up Neve thing but it’s not plastic like RND or the last few Metallica records that were all done through BAE. C 4000 is way better than SSL’s own mediocre plugs. This would be great to use pushed a bit with the Glue at 16x oversampling on two bus into Satin set right on modern tape for a very smooth itb sound that barely needs anything in mastering because they don’t change much timbre wise and have have horrible misbehavior like the SSL native and waves plugs. Of course this will bring crappy computers to their knees and some idiot mastering engineer will shove a dumb limiter or clipper on it later that kills the clean but rich two bus tone. Dan - you're nailing what we're hearing. We went through well over a dozen A style transformers that were said to be "good enough" until we found ONE that was magic. It was rough. Also, a bunch of op amp options. The N circuit is exactly as you described. It's "cleaned up" but retains the character of the original. It's Brad's special sauce take on it. Back in the day, no one really wanted to track and mix on that same console. Too much mud buildup. Brad was the champion of the Hitmaker. I was skeptical, as I've never really loved those consoles. Color me wrong. I love hitmaker now, and it's on almost every mix I do. |
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Post by drbill on Aug 28, 2023 10:49:57 GMT -6
.... LTL's goal is to make as many people happy and as creative as possible .... Cheers, bp Who can argue against that! Haha! Thanks man. Someone will find a way. LOL |
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Post by thehightenor on Aug 28, 2023 10:56:38 GMT -6
Hi Dan, Thanks for checking out the new plugin! The way you describe what you are hearing seems to align well with the results the hardware delivers. So it sounds like you are getting the same experience I have with the SB mk2 sitting on my desk. That makes me happy to hear. I've been enjoying A > C for modern, harmonically present mixes. Aspect Ratio engaged. Cheers, Brad .... but it’s not plastic like RND or the last few Metallica records that were all done through BAE. Dan, I'm certain we're circling the same sun .... I'm just starting to wonder if I'm on a different planet because heck, do I hear things completely and totally differently to you! If my BAE 1073D is plastic sounding then I must have a different atmosphere or something  |
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Post by studio54 on Aug 28, 2023 10:56:50 GMT -6
I have a SB Mk1 and it is the centerpiece of my studio. I track live instruments thru it and run 98% of VI channels thru it prior to mixing.
I have been curious about the new features on the Mk2, so am trying them out via the plugin. Tried the Hitmaker module — definitely like it. Then I tried the “aspect ratio.” I’m not even sure how to describe what that does.
Can someone school me on what this magic button is actually doing? I’ve never heard another processor do that, but I haven’t played too much with the various mix widening/depth tools out there.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2023 10:58:48 GMT -6
Yeah you did a great job with A. The plug is better sounding than modern api hardware including the current 2500 okay really the ones right before the 2500+ but I doubt the plus is that much better. The silver bullet plug is more flexible and less colored. Modern API just doesn’t sound money and fat. It sounds plastic and bandpassed to the point I preferred apogee pres on lower gain for some things a few years ago. Often modern api just makes things sound fake much of the time and not like a ramones record. N has that cleaned up Neve thing but it’s not plastic like RND or the last few Metallica records that were all done through BAE. C 4000 is way better than SSL’s own mediocre plugs. This would be great to use pushed a bit with the Glue at 16x oversampling on two bus into Satin set right on modern tape for a very smooth itb sound that barely needs anything in mastering because they don’t change much timbre wise and have have horrible misbehavior like the SSL native and waves plugs. Of course this will bring crappy computers to their knees and some idiot mastering engineer will shove a dumb limiter or clipper on it later that kills the clean but rich two bus tone. Dan - you're nailing what we're hearing. We went through well over a dozen A style transformers that were said to be "good enough" until we found ONE that was magic. It was rough. Also, a bunch of op amp options. The N circuit is exactly as you described. It's "cleaned up" but retains the character of the original. It's Brad's special sauce take on it. Back in the day, no one really wanted to track and mix on that same console. Too much mud buildup. Brad was the champion of the Hitmaker. I was skeptical, as I've never really loved those consoles. Color me wrong. I love hitmaker now, and it's on almost every mix I do. The hitmaker module from the pics on the website doesn’t have the smells like a rotting animal out of spec tantalum caps or the shitty dbx vca. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2023 11:11:57 GMT -6
And when you cut the mud from a lot of stuff that passed through junk, you’re left with unpleasant distortion instead of distortion you want. And you better hope it sounds like a fuzz and not plastic garbage. That’s the difference between cutting Nevey mud and cutting Grace mud.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2023 11:28:44 GMT -6
.... but it’s not plastic like RND or the last few Metallica records that were all done through BAE. Dan, I'm certain we're circling the same sun .... I'm just starting to wonder if I'm on a different planet because heck, do I hear things completely and totally differently to you! If my BAE 1073D is plastic sounding then I must have a different atmosphere or something Clean up your recordings to within an inch of their life and often what remains is just a plastic distortion on many pieces of popular gear. The “modern sound” is not clean, it is just distorted in harmonically unpleasant ways versus say a clean tube pre or polynomial wave shaper with only low order harmonics that are very far down. These artists would be better off with something much closer to clean like a V72, Hardy, Millenia, old Focusrite, or what SSL was making 20 years ago (the “super analogue”) than anything that tries to sound super cool as French people say. Then they cut the cool part and are left with midrange distortion and digital garbage like shitty limiters, Avid Lofi, and Valhalla Vintage Verb. Band pass and mud cut VVV and it’s an incredibly white bread reverb despite the hype that’s mostly based on price. |
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Post by thehightenor on Aug 28, 2023 12:12:37 GMT -6
Dan, I'm certain we're circling the same sun .... I'm just starting to wonder if I'm on a different planet because heck, do I hear things completely and totally differently to you! If my BAE 1073D is plastic sounding then I must have a different atmosphere or something Clean up your recordings to within an inch of their life and often what remains is just a plastic distortion on many pieces of popular gear. The “modern sound” is not clean, it is just distorted in harmonically unpleasant ways versus say a clean tube pre or polynomial wave shaper with only low order harmonics that are very far down. These artists would be better off with something much closer to clean like a V72, Hardy, Millenia, old Focusrite, or what SSL was making 20 years ago (the “super analogue”) than anything that tries to sound super cool as French people say. Then they cut the cool part and are left with midrange distortion and digital garbage like shitty limiters, Avid Lofi, and Valhalla Vintage Verb. Band pass and mud cut VVV and it’s an incredibly white bread reverb despite the hype that’s mostly based on price. Dan, I own BAE, Millennia, AEA, Coil, Focusrite and SSL pre amps and hand on heart, I don't understand what your'e talking about in the post above. You have some interesting views about audio that don't resonate with any of my 42 years experience recording music. As the saying goes, our ideas on what defines great audio .... "never the twain shall meet" That's cool, it would be boring if we all had the same perception and sense of aesthetic. |
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Post by Blackdawg on Aug 28, 2023 14:34:05 GMT -6
I like the plugin. Very nice.
Not on par with my hardwared SB, but hey. What plugin is?
I still am gonna use this, well, everywhere. Which honestly is why I go it. We all can't be like Bill with 7(i think?) SB on hand haha
Will enjoy my MK1(plus the extra discount for being a SB owner, super cool) and still hope to own an MKII one in the future plus the plugin.
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Post by kcatthedog on Aug 28, 2023 14:56:21 GMT -6
8, but whose counting ? |
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Post by phantom on Aug 29, 2023 5:51:14 GMT -6
This is awesome and disgusting. I love it.
I tested it out on a harmonically rich mix on two bus: A: Pushes mids. There's a very small sweet spot between "louder, tigher, better" and absolutely disgusting crunch. Crunch up your snares and guitars. Not that brown. Way less digital than Softube. N: Rounder, gentler, higher fidelity. Less of a disgusting crunch on transients and can be pushed harder but is veiled. Mids are not as fun as A. Neither as brown as Softube British Class A nor as digital as Waves. Hitmaker 4000: The most disgusting SSL emulation yet. This feels like you're overdriving a piece of gear with old DBX VCAs. I even checked at 192khz and it has the old VCA rolloff but is fatiguing to the point of glassy. Bitmaker 1200 is even grosser. I haven't tried the VHS effect. Someone needs to compare it to Baby Audio's Super VHS. A reminds me of Inflator but less fatiguing with a smaller sweet spot. N is most like the SDRR2 Desk but SDRR2 on 1 or 2 stages and Crosstalk not on High is subtler. 3 stages is more drastic. Hitmaker 4000 reminds me of the PSP Infinistrip 80s pre but more fatiguing, less digital, and less "yellow" for lack of a better term. Both get stupid loud on mix bus. This wrecks Waves SSL but the new EV2 is somehow even more lofi. Bitmaker 1200 is not as loud and stupid sounding as the Infinistrip 90s 12-bit ADC. It's not as colorful as Molot GE's LOFI button. TCS-68 is subtler and smoother than Hitmaker 4000. Without the cassette emulation activated can have more distortion while not being as noticeable. The Vinyl Sim is neither as out there as Vulf Compressor nor as detailed as SimuLathe. I would not buy it at anything close to full price because Plugin Alliance rewards the patient. Clean Dan enjoying some saturation for a change? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2023 7:14:33 GMT -6
N has that cleaned up Neve thing but it’s not plastic like RND or the last few Metallica records that were all done through BAE. I've only ever heard the Shelford's but they are certainly not plastic in any way, shape or form. High fidelity is probably the most apt description and not really anything like classic Neve.. I mean you are right in one way, the Shelford's have both input & output transformers that will mangle the sound to a small extent but I like some sugar in my coffee and I ain't complaining, after all we're not after reality in music production.
As for the SB stuff, I've always been curious but having a lot of HW & a desk it somewhat seems superflous. Ironically I wish I'd have had something like this years back when using a certain LFAC or low / mid ranged desks with not much character to speak of.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Aug 29, 2023 9:56:37 GMT -6
Well I for one am thrilled with this because I love my SB MK1 and am also a PA subscriber (shhh... don't tell anyone).
Even if I could afford it (which I can't) I would never spend the money to rack up my rehearsal room with SB's but, now, I will definitely be slapping a bunch of versions of the plugin version across key channels for my "down and dirty" mixes. And, yeah, I won't be telling anyone in my band I did that either.
"Man, these rough mixes sound way better than the ones from last week."
"Oh really? Huh... I guess I'm just a great engineer!"
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2023 10:12:35 GMT -6
N has that cleaned up Neve thing but it’s not plastic like RND or the last few Metallica records that were all done through BAE. I've only ever heard the Shelford's but they are certainly not plastic in any way, shape or form. High fidelity is probably the most apt description and not really anything like classic Neve.. I mean you are right in one way, the Shelford's have both input & output transformers that will mangle the sound to a small extent but I like some sugar in my coffee and I ain't complaining, after all we're not after reality in music production.
As for the SB stuff, I've always been curious but having a lot of HW & a desk it somewhat seems superflous. Ironically I wish I'd have had something like this years back when using a certain LFAC or low / mid ranged desks with not much character to speak of.
Meant Silk man for RND 😬 Even for digital, this plug would’ve been better appreciated around ten years ago even if computers could barely run it just like U-he Satin, in the early UAD2, Slate Digital, and Variety of Sound days. Now there are a ton of modeled preamp distortion plugins, some of them incredibly obscure, and they can all do something similar. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2023 10:19:16 GMT -6
This is awesome and disgusting. I love it.
I tested it out on a harmonically rich mix on two bus: A: Pushes mids. There's a very small sweet spot between "louder, tigher, better" and absolutely disgusting crunch. Crunch up your snares and guitars. Not that brown. Way less digital than Softube. N: Rounder, gentler, higher fidelity. Less of a disgusting crunch on transients and can be pushed harder but is veiled. Mids are not as fun as A. Neither as brown as Softube British Class A nor as digital as Waves. Hitmaker 4000: The most disgusting SSL emulation yet. This feels like you're overdriving a piece of gear with old DBX VCAs. I even checked at 192khz and it has the old VCA rolloff but is fatiguing to the point of glassy. Bitmaker 1200 is even grosser. I haven't tried the VHS effect. Someone needs to compare it to Baby Audio's Super VHS. A reminds me of Inflator but less fatiguing with a smaller sweet spot. N is most like the SDRR2 Desk but SDRR2 on 1 or 2 stages and Crosstalk not on High is subtler. 3 stages is more drastic. Hitmaker 4000 reminds me of the PSP Infinistrip 80s pre but more fatiguing, less digital, and less "yellow" for lack of a better term. Both get stupid loud on mix bus. This wrecks Waves SSL but the new EV2 is somehow even more lofi. Bitmaker 1200 is not as loud and stupid sounding as the Infinistrip 90s 12-bit ADC. It's not as colorful as Molot GE's LOFI button. TCS-68 is subtler and smoother than Hitmaker 4000. Without the cassette emulation activated can have more distortion while not being as noticeable. The Vinyl Sim is neither as out there as Vulf Compressor nor as detailed as SimuLathe. I would not buy it at anything close to full price because Plugin Alliance rewards the patient. Clean Dan enjoying some saturation for a change? I like distortion. I don’t like gross aliasing and fart boxes. This plugin doesn’t really have digital artifacts until you push it well into the red and has a ton of uses as a texturizer or maximizer with the non linear transfer curve of the modeled amplifiers when overdriven a tiny bit. Think of it like getting 3 Fuse plugs in one but modeling modernized in a good way stuff where Fuse will only mod the hardware he models like his LA4 and Federal, a cooler Shattered Glass plug, or a less flexible SDRR. |
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Post by BradM on Aug 29, 2023 10:43:59 GMT -6
As for the SB stuff, I've always been curious but having a lot of HW & a desk it somewhat seems superflous. Ironically I wish I'd have had something like this years back when using a certain LFAC or low / mid ranged desks with not much character to speak of.
We actually have a customer that has a Silver Bullet on the master inserts of his Neve 88RS. Brad |
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Post by tasteliketape on Aug 29, 2023 11:03:54 GMT -6
Email from plugin alliance
“Owners of one of the following products can benefit from our special license offers of $179.99 for a short period. Just make sure you are logged in and then the price will be shown to you automatically.
Black Box Analog Design HG-2, Black Box Analog Design HG-2MS, Looptrotter, SA2RATE 2, NEOLD WARBLE, NEOLD BIG AL, Maor Appelbaum Mastering & Hendyamps THE OVEN or Louder Than Liftoff Chop Shop.”
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Post by drbill on Aug 29, 2023 11:51:34 GMT -6
As for the SB stuff, I've always been curious but having a lot of HW & a desk it somewhat seems superflous. Ironically I wish I'd have had something like this years back when using a certain LFAC or low / mid ranged desks with not much character to speak of.
We actually have a customer that has a Silver Bullet on the master inserts of his Neve 88RS. Brad And Brad still has a SB on the master insert of his Vision console if I'm not wrong, and when I was running a console, I had one on the insert of my OrionX. Very useful hardware tool for those applications. |
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Post by Darren Boling on Aug 29, 2023 12:03:15 GMT -6
www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/qj7h0t0c0vcfjiwaf2n3c/h?rlkey=7n7478sk0uoav3mb8h1tnfkwv&dl=0 I posted these blind HW/SW tests at the other place but thought I'd also share here as the results seemed to be mixed on who could pick HW vs SW. Plugin Doctor graphs included. Ran the drum loop as a loopback via Prism Titan HDX 2496 using Ghost and Terry cables. My MK1 has Carnhills in the N side so I also included an A only test to be as similar as possible.
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Post by drbill on Aug 29, 2023 12:40:43 GMT -6
www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/qj7h0t0c0vcfjiwaf2n3c/h?rlkey=7n7478sk0uoav3mb8h1tnfkwv&dl=0 I posted these blind HW/SW tests at the other place but thought I'd also share here as the results seemed to be mixed on who could pick HW vs SW. Plugin Doctor graphs included. Ran the drum loop as a loopback via Prism Titan HDX 2496 using Ghost and Terry cables. My MK1 has Carnhills in the N side so I also included an A only test to be as similar as possible. Do you think folks will be as wrong here as they are/were over there?? . |
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Post by Darren Boling on Aug 29, 2023 13:26:47 GMT -6
www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/qj7h0t0c0vcfjiwaf2n3c/h?rlkey=7n7478sk0uoav3mb8h1tnfkwv&dl=0 I posted these blind HW/SW tests at the other place but thought I'd also share here as the results seemed to be mixed on who could pick HW vs SW. Plugin Doctor graphs included. Ran the drum loop as a loopback via Prism Titan HDX 2496 using Ghost and Terry cables. My MK1 has Carnhills in the N side so I also included an A only test to be as similar as possible. Do you think folks will be as wrong here as they are/were over there?? . I have more faith over here but time will tell! Ha. I don't really think of it as a contest though and had some regret after posting the first A/B. I had done initial tests on the same loop I always do first tests with and was impressed so in my excitement posted. Then realizing I could be more scientific I redid it, didn't want anyone running away with the wrong idea and unfairly starting internet lore about something that wasn't as precise as it could've been. I don't even care who's going to backtrack when I make the reveal, I just wanted to show how close it is and let people get excited and back to making music. |
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